Why do Curses of pagans work?

[_Gandalf]

As you have many years of experience in magic you may well be able to answer the question I posed in another thread asking on what authority you claim to be a druid?

Under no authority am I claiming to be a druid. Mainly because I’m not one. If you are being thrown off by the word “Draíocht” then I will be able to provide you with a more open-ended translation of the word then one you might have come across.

I am sorry that you were insulted. You should re-read my post and notice that I did not address the subjects of witches or witchcraft. This thread is about pagan curses and I was addressing magic.

If you did not intend to insult, then I guess there was no harm done. However magic and Witchcraft are so heavily interrelated that it is almost impossible to comment on one without inferring on the other. In fact, the casting of spells is one of the largest differences between Witchcraft and other forms of Paganism. Though there might be forms of Paganism outside of Witchcraft that utilize magic, it is heavily linked to Witchcraft.

Witches do not have a corner on the market of magic.

Sorry, but I have no idea what that means. It sounds as if you are implying that Witches do not practice magic, but as I said before that is a distinctive feature of Witchcraft. If you could possibly rephrase this I might be able to get what you mean.

Curses are fairly common. Do a Google search on How to curse people and find over 72,000,000 results. Search How to bless people and get 116,000,000. The number for blessings is larger than that of curses, but curses is still quite significant.

This is an instance where I wouldn’t trust Google. Answer me this: Who is more likely to type that query into Google, a Witch who therefore already knows how to cast spells and could adapt one for the purpose of harming someone, or someone who knows nothing about Witchcraft who just wants to get at someone? There is no reason for a Witch to type “How to curse someone” into Google, and there’s little reason for one to maintain a site with such information. The large majority of stuff you find with commonplace searches like that are by people who are putting on a show, and aren’t really Witches themselves.
For instance, I just put that query into Google and the first article I found on the matter* was quite like I just described. For instance, step one is:
“1. Rise from your bed at midnight. Sit cross-legged on the floor in a dark, empty room and whisper the words: “Evil, live, live, evil” over and over for one minute. In your mind’s eye, picture the person you want to curse.”
Now does that sound like something from Hollywood or what? Now I’m not saying that an experienced Witch couldn’t do this if he/she wanted to, but what most people don’t understand is that casting a spell is a lot harder then the movies make it look, and they often have much more subtle effects. Stuff like that is made to entertain people, and has little to no basis in actual magic.

I will remind Gandolf that this is a Catholic Forum. I will not coddle pagans. If you want to hear like-minded views, visit a witch forum.

Gandalf happens to not need reminding, though thank you for the effort. I understand I am at a Catholic forum, and whereas I am willing to tolerate nearly endless questions, I do not like it when people make statements about what I believe. I know it was not your intent to come off how I took it, so no harm was done. Unless you have more to add, I suggest we move on to more important matters then a simple misunderstanding.

I will tell you that I studied Druidism. If one wants to know, I studied in the Druidic Craft of the Wise under Father Eli on a commune in Arkansas…

I would like to point out again that I’m not a druid, and Witchcraft happens to be an incredibly broad field of religions. Even though it is often treated as a whole; generally speaking anyway. If you were able to get something out of the particular path you looked into, that’s excellent, and it should help you to better understand Witchcraft as a whole. If however you where completely opposed to it, please keep in mind that Witchcraft entails more then any one belief.
However the question of human divinity has been brought up by everyone from theologians to philosophers, and nobody has really been able to solidly answer it. For the most part though, I would agree with what you said: Humanity has divine aspects, but is not in itself divine.

*The URL is
weeklyworldnews.com/headlines/10193/how-to-curse-someone-in-4-steps/
If you care to check it out.

 

[MtnDwellar]

However magic and Witchcraft are so heavily interrelated that it is almost impossible to comment on one without inferring on the other. In fact, the casting of spells is one of the largest differences between Witchcraft and other forms of Paganism. Though there might be forms of Paganism outside of Witchcraft that utilize magic, it is heavily linked to Witchcraft.

My point was that witches are not the only group who practice magic. Again, witchcraft is a broad term. There is no central authority for witches or even a book that they have in common.

Witches practice low magic. There is another broad class of practitioners who use high magic and do not identify as witches. There are groups, such as Santeria or Voodoo, who practice low magic and do not identify themselves as witches. There are groups that originated in Africa or South American and have no link to Celtic beliefs. So a discussion of magic may or may not involve witches.

This is an instance where I wouldn’t trust Google.

I used Google in an effort to add objective evidence to my claim that curses are not uncommon. Other than that, all I have is personal subjective data.

Gandalf happens to not need reminding, though thank you for the effort. I understand I am at a Catholic forum, and whereas I am willing to tolerate nearly endless questions, I do not like it when people make statements about what I believe.

There is a non-Catholic religions forum on this website. That forum is used to ask and answer questions about other religions. You are on the Apologetics Forum. This forum is used to offer Catholic reasoning and judgements for defending truth.

On the topic of this thread, curses, hexes, spells, and snares do work. Any person, but particularly one who has a relationship with the diabolic, can easily encourage Satan to do what he does, but direct his efforts toward a specific individual.

 

[_Gandalf]

My point was that witches are not the only group who practice magic. Again, witchcraft is a broad term. There is no central authority for witches or even a book that they have in common.

Witches practice low magic. There is another broad class of practitioners who use high magic and do not identify as witches. There are groups, such as Santeria or Voodoo, who practice low magic and do not identify themselves as witches. There are groups that originated in Africa or South American and have no link to Celtic beliefs. So a discussion of magic may or may not involve witches.

I do want to correct something right off the bat; there are branches of Witchcraft that deal with high magic as well as low magic (though both terms are misleading).
However it seems that we are using different definitions of the word “Witchcraft”. Though there are other branches of Paganism, such as Druidism for instance, that don’t actually use the word “Witchcraft”, however the definition that I am using includes such things. To quote Wikipedia:
“Witchcraft, in various historical, anthropological, religious and mythological contexts, is the use of supernatural or magical power.”
So by that definition, any form of Paganism dealing with magic is Witchcraft. Though the term is broad enough that it is up to multiple interpretations.
Though the word “Witch” is thought to have Celtic origins, there are few people who reserve it exclusively for Celtic religions.

There is a non-Catholic religions forum on this website. That forum is used to ask and answer questions about other religions. You are on the Apologetics Forum. This forum is used to offer Catholic reasoning and judgements for defending truth.

That is exactly where I found this thread. I’m assuming you found this on the apologetics forum, so that’s proof enough that it exists in both. Therefore it is reasonable to assume the rules for either would apply.

On the topic of this thread, curses, hexes, spells, and snares do work. Any person, but particularly one who has a relationship with the diabolic, can easily encourage Satan to do what he does, but direct his efforts toward a specific individual.

Yes, they work, though they have nothing to do with this “Satan” figure that y’all like to mention.
I’m assuming you are going to stick with the Witchcraft-is-Satanic story, it is a common one among Christians, though I wanted to go ahead and get the truth out there.

 

[Josh316]

I have a question. Regardless of where witchcraft derives its power (satan, energy) if God forbids its use why mess around with it.

 

[Josh316]

I don’t mean to be rude Gandalf, if I came across that way I’m sorry. I’m just curious, have you ever considered that maybe the devil exists even if you don’t believe it? What if he exists and the magic you’re using is just a form of his deception? Obviously I believe he exists but whether or not one believes in something has no bearing in it’s existance. It just seems like a very large gamble to me. Whatever the case may be, you will be in my prayers.

 

[MtnDwellar]

I do want to correct something right off the bat; there are branches of Witchcraft that deal with high magic as well as low magic (though both terms are misleading).
However it seems that we are using different definitions of the word “Witchcraft”. Though there are other branches of Paganism, such as Druidism for instance, that don’t actually use the word “Witchcraft”, however the definition that I am using includes such things. To quote Wikipedia:
“Witchcraft, in various historical, anthropological, religious and mythological contexts, is the use of supernatural or magical power.”
So by that definition, any form of Paganism dealing with magic is Witchcraft. Though the term is broad enough that it is up to multiple interpretations.
Though the word “Witch” is thought to have Celtic origins, there are few people who reserve it exclusively for Celtic religions.

By that Wikipedia definition, Catholicism is witchcraft. We use supernatural power. The definition is far to broad to have much use. Forget about it.

That is exactly where I found this thread. I’m assuming you found this on the apologetics forum, so that’s proof enough that it exists in both. Therefore it is reasonable to assume the rules for either would apply.

We are on the Apologetics forum. I don’t know what you mean.

Yes, they work, though they have nothing to do with this “Satan” figure that y’all like to mention.
I’m assuming you are going to stick with the Witchcraft-is-Satanic story, it is a common one among Christians, though I wanted to go ahead and get the truth out there.

By what power do you think curses work? They are called black magic. Satan has a very strong influence upon earth. Our enemy prowls the earth like a roaring lion seeking to devour souls (1Peter 5:8). Satan is described as murderer and a liar from the beginning. He is the prince of this world. Satan can cause illness and ruin finances (Job).

Of course Satan is behind curses.

 

[_Gandalf]

I have a question. Regardless of where witchcraft derives its power (satan, energy) if God forbids its use why mess around with it.

There is nothing in my religion saying you shouldn’t use magic. Your religion is the one that forbids it, not mine.

I don’t mean to be rude Gandalf, if I came across that way I’m sorry. I’m just curious, have you ever considered that maybe the devil exists even if you don’t believe it? What if he exists and the magic you’re using is just a form of his deception? Obviously I believe he exists but whether or not one believes in something has no bearing in it’s existance. It just seems like a very large gamble to me. Whatever the case may be, you will be in my prayers.

Not rude at all, in fact a reasonable question. Is it possible? Yes, it’s completely possible. It’s possible that I am 100% wrong about everything in my religion, my disbelief in Satan included. At the end of the day, you can’t really prove a religion, so all you’ve got is your experience and your beliefs, and what just makes sense. Logic can prove that there is something out there, but aside from that it is of little help.
However, I am firm in my belief. There can be many flaws with the caster of a spell, but that doesn’t mean the magic itself is dangerous. Though it should always be treated with the utmost respect and caution. That’s my take on it anyway.

By that Wikipedia definition, Catholicism is witchcraft. We use supernatural power. The definition is far to broad to have much use. Forget about it.

And alas, you have stumbled across my point. In more ways then one, actually. In that instance, I was trying to make the point that Witchcraft was an incredibly broad term, and is open to many interpretations. The point of this thread is that using certain definitions, elements of Christianity are very similar to elements of Witchcraft.

By what power do you think curses work? They are called black magic.

“Black magic” is more of a colloquial term than an official one. Though that is neither here nor there.

Of course Satan is behind curses.

If that’s true, then what is behind the more benign forms of magic? You’ve hinted that you believe magic is real, so what is behind the friendlier spells? Surely that can’t also be done by your Satan. Why would a disembodied force of evil choose to do all of the good that comes out of magic as well? If it’s not Satan, then it must be what we say it is in the first place, which would mean that Satan would also not be needed for casting a curse. If it is Satan, then why would he intentionally do things that yield positive results? Seems a little out of character if you ask me.
You can maintain that belief, but it is the character of the caster that affects what will become of the spell, not some devil that’s pulling the strings.

 

[SunnaB16]

There is nothing in my religion saying you shouldn’t use magic. Your religion is the one that forbids it, not mine…

If that’s true, then what is behind the more benign forms of magic? You’ve hinted that you believe magic is real, so what is behind the friendlier spells? Surely that can’t also be done by your Satan.

Satan is quite capable of performing “the more benign forms of magic”, “the friendlier spells”, as you call them. It`s just his way of sucking foolish individuals into this stuff, with the ultimate goal of their being damned in hell. Short term profit: long term (like, forever) loss!

Why would a disembodied force of evil choose to do all of the good that comes out of magic as well? If it’s not Satan, then it must be what we say it is in the first place, which would mean that Satan would also not be needed for casting a curse. If it is Satan, then why would he intentionally do things that yield positive results? Seems a little out of character if you ask me.

This will upset you; but it has to be said:
id suggest that you, yourself, have been deceived by Satan; and that, if you dont pull out of it, you leave yourself in mortal (spiritually speaking) danger. Among other things: Satan is making use of you to propagate your “religion” on these forums. “A serpent in paradise.”

As Christians, we have to reject Satan and all of his empty promises. He is THE DECEIVER!

Christian charity demands that you be warned.

 

[SunnaB16]

PS
Something that was forgotten:

If your mortal enemy can convince you that he doesnt even exist, hes well on the way to defeating you.
Satan, along with the other fallen angels, has had great success in that area.

 

[Dorothy]

PS
Something that was forgotten:

If your mortal enemy can convince you that he doesnt even exist, hes well on the way to defeating you.
Satan, along with the other fallen angels, has had great success in that area.

Very good posts Sunna!

I would like to add this with regard to supposedley “benign” magic.

It is like a person who lives in a house all alone locks all the doors and windows, then goes to bed, while all the while the thief (satan) is in the basement.

 

[SunnaB16]

Thanks, Dorothy.
And a good addition!

None of it will help Gandalf, though, will it!
Its ironic having that screen name when, in JRR Tolkiens mythology, a Man (as in human) who tries to use powers which are not his by right falls flat on his face, and takes others with him. Look at Denethor and the palantir of Minas Tirith!

 

[Spirithound]

So one hears of witchcraft etc. stories and curses. So why or does, a witches curse work?

Also how can the outward form of a oujia board, or horoscope cause a demonic possession?

Is there simply something more to this?

If a curse works, it works by demonic power. I don’t believe the form of the curse matters, it is simply because the curser welcomes in the power of evil in attempting to invoke it on others.

 

[vz71]

If a curse works, it works by demonic power. I don’t believe the form of the curse matters, it is simply because the curser welcomes in the power of evil in attempting to invoke it on others.

It is worth repeating.

It is to Satan’s advantage to make certain curses work at least part of the time.

Proper placement of what we perceive as a miracle or magic can also strengthen faith in the occult. And cause confusion among the faithful.

When we pray for something and God says ‘no’ we often comfort ourselves noting it God may know it to be to our disadvantage.
But for that same reason, Satan may step in and perform our wishes.

 

[_Gandalf]

This will upset you; but it has to be said:
id suggest that you, yourself, have been deceived by Satan; and that, if you dont pull out of it, you leave yourself in mortal (spiritually speaking) danger. Among other things: Satan is making use of you to propagate your “religion” on these forums. "A serpent in paradise.

I assumed you would take this stand. Like I said, it is a common one.Be that as it may, I am firm in my beliefs.

Its ironic having that screen name when, in JRR Tolkiens mythology, a Man (as in human) who tries to use powers which are not his by right falls flat on his face, and takes others with him. Look at Denethor and the palantir of Minas Tirith!

But, as I’ve said before, magic is a natural force. The capability for magic exists in all people, and we have as much right to use it as we have the right to walk, or use our hands, or any other thing that is inanely ours. Though like with anything else, we still have the duty to use it well. Anything can be abused, magic included.

It is worth repeating.

It is to Satan’s advantage to make certain curses work at least part of the time.

Proper placement of what we perceive as a miracle or magic can also strengthen faith in the occult. And cause confusion among the faithful.

When we pray for something and God says ‘no’ we often comfort ourselves noting it God may know it to be to our disadvantage.
But for that same reason, Satan may step in and perform our wishes.

It seems to be very common that Christians act like everything is done by either god or satan. So tell me, why does what you do matter at all? You seem to be of the belief that one of those forces will make of things what they will, so in your scenario your actions are pointless. A concept that I personally reject.

Regardless, as I said earlier curses are rather rare. Though they do happen, most magic is either neutral or beneficial in nature. In fact, it’s quite common for it to be completely passive. This being the case, would this Satan really want to bother doing a bunch of good things just because occasionally someone will do a bad one? The math doesn’t seem to work out if you ask me.
I’ve gotten the impression that many of you believe that curses are commonplace, and that they are a major constituent of Witchcraft. This isn’t the case. Much of the Pagan community is against what you may call “black magic”. It would be foolish to deny that they happen, but it isn’t as common as some of you seem to think. There are always bad people, and bad people always abuse the powers that are available to them. Magic is one such power that can be abused.

 

[MtnDwellar]

I assumed you would take this stand. Like I said, it is a common one.Be that as it may, I am firm in my beliefs.

Hi Gandalf, It is clear that you have accepted a set of beliefs that is directly condemned by God. Satan’s objective is to convince us to reject Christ. He is cunning and masterful. Many have fallen for his lies.

How many witches have resurrected themselves bodily from the dead? How many witches have even raised another person from the dead? As Catholics, we have decided to follow the word of the Guy who has done these things. Logic based upon false assumptions and omission of the truth will only lead to false conclusions.

 

[SunnaB16]

I assumed you would take this stand. Like I said, it is a common one.Be that as it may, I am firm in my beliefs.

You must have “The Sight”! That post (#30) was the first post i made on this thread…unless you just meant that someone would say that.

But, as I’ve said before, magic is a natural force. The capability for magic exists in all people, and we have as much right to use it as we have the right to walk, or use our hands, or any other thing that is inanely ours. Though like with anything else, we still have the duty to use it well. Anything can be abused, magic included.

Magic is NOT a natural force; neither is God, and neither is Satan. You perform that stuff in an attempt to gain some advantage over the rest of us (im not saying theres any attempt to injure us!). An entity with an intellect and a will has to be behind it to make it work. This occult business is different from a person in the natural world making use of a labour-saving device to achieve his ends…

It seems to be very common that Christians act like everything is done by either god or satan. So tell me, why does what you do matter at all? You seem to be of the belief that one of those forces will make of things what they will, so in your scenario your actions are pointless.*** A concept that I personally reject***.

So do we.
God gives each of us free will; and cant force us to follow Him. He wishes to be (freely) loved and worshipped by thinking beings: not by robots or ants. Being omniscient, He knows the ultimate choice of each of us; and respects that choice (made by using our free will). He can prompt us; but He cant force us. Calvinist or Sunni Islamic Predestinationism has nothing to do with God and our ultimate fate!
That paragraph is ridiculous!

Regardless, as I said earlier curses are rather rare. Though they do happen, most magic is either neutral or beneficial in nature. In fact, it’s quite common for it to be completely passive. This being the case, would this Satan really want to bother doing a bunch of good things just because occasionally someone will do a bad one? The math doesn’t seem to work out if you ask me.

Read my earlier comment about Satan. He and his fellow demons are only too happy to oblige foolish people by granting their wishes, in exchange for dragging then down to the misery and hatred which they (the demons) have inflicted on themselves. ***Pure deception! ***Pure malice!
God doesn`t consign us to hell: we consign ourselves; aided by these (impersonal?) “forces” that you think so much of.
“Beware of Greeks bearing gifts!”

You have as much right to make your choices as others have to make theirs.
The choice is yours: SELF (ie ultimately, nothing) or God, Who is the only Being Who can ultimately satisfy the needs and desires at the core of our being.
BUT:
You have to be prepared to accept the consequences of your choice.

 

[vz71]

It is worth repeating.

It is to Satan’s advantage to make certain curses work at least part of the time.

Proper placement of what we perceive as a miracle or magic can also strengthen faith in the occult. And cause confusion among the faithful.

When we pray for something and God says ‘no’ we often comfort ourselves noting it God may know it to be to our disadvantage.
But for that same reason, Satan may step in and perform our wishes.

It seems to be very common that Christians act like everything is done by either god or satan. So tell me, why does what you do matter at all? You seem to be of the belief that one of those forces will make of things what they will, so in your scenario your actions are pointless. A concept that I personally reject.

Interesting that when a point is made well and cannot be refuted people will often resort to a distortion of it and try to refute the distortion instead.

At no point did I make a claim concerning everything that happens, nor did I make a claim concerning all miracles. for that matter, my claim is on perception.
For it may well be miracles and magic are not, and we simply lack the knowledge to know what is really happening.

Yet you latched onto the imaginary word ‘all’ and ran with it.

 

[Imryl]

Before I weigh in - if I weigh in - I have two questions for you Gandalf.

Truth in advertising thought - I am not a Christian or Catholic. I’m a diabolist. That is, a Satan worshipper.

First, you keep saying “your religion” but some of your posts in this thread imply that you do not believe in spiritual beings, only energies that you can direct by exerting your will. I am curious about your use of the word religion then since religion classically means, well, relationship. Christianity is a religion because it has a relational component, I.e. a relationship with three divine persons, Father, Son and Holy Spirit. Note: I do not yet need information about your beliefs just clarification as to what you mean when you say “religion”.

Second, when you speak of different spells, what do you have in mind? What do you believe you are changing when these energies are redirected to serve your needs?

If I feel up to it, and if I get the time, I may start a thread in the Non-Catholic forum to discuss some of your misconceptions, not only about Christianity and Catholicism, but “magic” in general. First things first though, before the conversation starts (I’ll link the thread in here if I get the time to post) we need to hammer down some vocabulary and agree on some first principles.

–----------

To the original poster - there is no such thing as magic, and therefore curses do not work. But certainly you can ask the devil to do for you much like you can pray to your guardian angel and ask for assistance. This is not the same thing as so-called “magic” because magic implies that the person who is vocalizing their prayer or attempting to impose their will on something is effecting the change. That is not possible since it is not proper to the nature of man. Which means, it is not within man’s power - he cannot do it - because God did not give him that power. Man has to work within the natural and physical laws, I.e. he cannot ignore gravity.

 

[valentino]

Your not superstituous by any chance?

 

[Imryl]

P.S. My definition of religion is not rigorous, obviously, but a relationship it at its root. I also did not define what I mean when I say “spell”, and that is my mistake. When I say “spell” I mean things that man cannot accomplish on his own. He can make a plane and fly but he can not cause a apple to float through the air with his thoughts.

I was rushing to finish before my daughter woke up, so I wasn’t clear. I also made spelling, punctuation and didn’t always capitalize correctly, which drives me nuts. Such is the consequence of rushing, and typing all this on a phone!

Now that my daughter is up though, I’ve got to run!