Why do gays want marriage? What do they hope gain from it?

[Patavium]

So, there are catholics in favor of gay marriage? so what? The Church is not a democracy.

 

[Bradski]

I also note we don’t seem to have enough black Catholics to break them out as a group.

Something I’d not considered before. Completely off topic, so apologies in advance (and I’m not being critical here), it seems that about 3% of Catholics in the US are African American ncregister.com/daily-news/black-and-catholic/

A function of the history of the church in America, I’d guess.

This is why gay people who have no connection whatsoever to the Catholic church are angry and why it sounds to some like there is some kind of conspiracy movement against the Church. Those outside the church are responding to the inconsistency of what commitments that the Church says only their members must honor, and what commitments the Church says every human must honor. And I understand that-I certainly would not want to be forced by some civil law to honor commitments of a religion that I don’t follow.

Thumbs up for the whole post (sorry - no smilie. I hate using them…).

So, there are catholics in favor of gay marriage? so what? The Church is not a democracy.

It’s not important in itself. As you say, the Church is not a democracy and I’d have a lot less respect for it (yes, I do have respect for it), if it just changed its position depending on which way the wind was blowing. I mean, you have to have the courage of your convictions.

But let’s say I was gay. I wanted to get married like my straight friends. But I found that literally everyone else thought it was a bad idea. I might not like that, but I’d realise that there wasn’t really anything I could do about it. And if it was just me, then it would be natural to have doubts about one’s position.

Then I realised that all other gay people felt the same way. Then I realised that a lot of straight people agreed with me. Then I realised that a majority of straight people agreed with me. But there was a problem in that most Christians were dead against the idea. Catholics were vocal in their opposition. The Church actively lobbied against it.

Then I find out that even a majority of the church’s own followers are on my side and that the percentage is increasing yearly.

Then I wouldn’t have any doubts any more. Then I’d realise that so many people are themselves doubting their original position. Then I’d know it was only a matter of time.
Then I’d be a happy person.

 

[CopticChristian]

]

Something I’d not considered before. Completely off topic, so apologies in advance (and I’m not being critical here), it seems that about 3% of Catholics in the US are African American ncregister.com/daily-news/black-and-catholic/

A function of the history of the church in America, I’d guess.

Thumbs up for the whole post (sorry - no smilie. I hate using them…).

It’s not important in itself. As you say, the Church is not a democracy and I’d have a lot less respect for it (yes, I do have respect for it), if it just changed its position depending on which way the wind was blowing. I mean, you have to have the courage of your convictions.

But let’s say I was gay. I wanted to get married like my straight friends. But I found that literally everyone else thought it was a bad idea. I might not like that, but I’d realise that there wasn’t really anything I could do about it. And if it was just me, then it would be natural to have doubts about one’s position.

Then I realised that all other gay people felt the same way. Then I realised that a lot of straight people agreed with me. Then I realised that a majority of straight people agreed with me. But there was a problem in that most Christians were dead against the idea. Catholics were vocal in their opposition. The Church actively lobbied against it.

Then I find out that even a majority of the church’s own followers are on my side and that the percentage is increasing yearly.

Then I wouldn’t have any doubts any more. Then I’d realise that so many people are themselves doubting their original position. Then I’d know it was only a matter of time.
**Then I’d be a happy person./**QUOTE]

Bradski,

I am reminded of Johnny Carson and the great Karnak…I am holding your post to my head and I tell you…you should dismiss this notion of joy from your mind…you should plan not to be happy…you should learn to get over it…thus says Karnak…

 

[markeverett49]

(I also note we don’t seem to have enough black Catholics to break them out as a group. )

There are over 150 million Catholics in Africa. I suspect a fair share of them are black!

 

[Julia_Mae]

There are over 150 million Catholics in Africa. I suspect a fair share of them are black!

By “we” I meant the US. It was where the study was conducted.

But I think you might be right!

 

[Faithdancer]

So, there are catholics in favor of gay marriage? so what? The Church is not a democracy.

:thumbsup:Very true, and there are Catholics in error on this and other issues. This is why I won’t spend my time trying to evangelize unbelievers as long as there are Catholics who need religious education.

 

[Faithdancer]

I don’t think they should get out of the “civil union” business, just the marriage business. In fact, I think an adult parent and child should be able to form a civil union, maybe up to four adults, like parents and one child and spouse, so we can afford the old-fashioned multi-generational family home. Much better for kids, IMO.

Maybe we should call it a domestic corporation. They can be non-profit.

People who want to be married can find a pastor. I think we should simply separate the two: the state civil contract and the sacramental (in our case) state of lifelong heterosexual union. Or, in the case of some other church, same-sex union.

I’m not sure who you are referring to in “our case.” Are you saying you are a Roman Catholic?

 

[Faithdancer]

You can trust Pew. They are as solid as any organisation in regard to polling. No agendas, just hard figures.

You must realise that this isn’t about some atheist plot to destroy Catholicism. If you believe that, then the debate is going to run off in the wrong direction and your arguments are not going to be focused on the actual matter in hand.

Who said anything about a plot? Are you saying that many unbelievers don’t hope for the destruction of the Catholic Church? Such a viewpoint wouldn’t seem to be supported in light of many of the threads and posts by unbelievers on Catholic Answers Forums. Unfortunately, there seem to be some heterodox Catholics here and there as well who hope to see the Church, if not destroyed, at least altered beyond recognition, to become some absurd parody of Unitarianism.

 

[Bradski]

Who said anything about a plot? Are you saying that many unbelievers don’t hope for the destruction of the Catholic Church? Such a viewpoint wouldn’t seem to be supported in light of many of the threads and posts by unbelievers on Catholic Answers Forums.

You are suggesting that ‘many unbelievers’ hope for the destruction of your church. If you don’t think there’s a plot then I will agree with you. I can’t speak for anyone else, godless or otherwise, but personally you have my support. Except when you cross the dividing line between church and state, that is.

But my point still stands. If you think that the support for gay marriage is somehow a liberal ruse to destroy Catholicism, then you are missing the point. By a wide margin. I am not saying that there aren’t people who would wish you harm, but if we concentrate on the matter at hand, then we can both deal with those people as a separate matter.

Unfortunately, there seem to be some heterodox Catholics here and there as well who hope to see the Church, if not destroyed, at least altered beyond recognition, to become some absurd parody of Unitarianism.

That’s an internal problem that you have and I really have no say in how you keep your own house in order. But I can say, looking from the outside, that the number of Catholics who are ignoring the Vatican on what you would consider serious questions of morality is casting doubts both inside and outside the church as to what it actually means to be a Catholic.

I have always tried my best to respect other people’s beliefs and to consider them when I have a point of view that contrasts with that belief. But there is a point when the beliefs are held by so few people that in all honesty, they cease to be a consideration.

I know that you may well point to the fact that certain aspects of morality are not up for a vote; that they are still Catholic teachings; that you could point to the catechism and ex cathedra pronunciations from the Vatican.

But they are only applicable to other Catholics. They do not apply to me. So in the case of contraception, for example, I really don’t consider it to be a Catholic belief any more. Hardly anyone follows the church on this, so I feel quite at ease ignoring the ‘official’ position.

And that’s where you’re heading with gay marriage. And the polls, whilst you may think they are not important in themselves, are pointing unerringly to the problems you are going to have in the not so distant future.

 

[Faithdancer]

You are suggesting that ‘many unbelievers’ hope for the destruction of your church. If you don’t think there’s a plot then I will agree with you. I can’t speak for anyone else, godless or otherwise, but personally you have my support. Except when you cross the dividing line between church and state, that is.

But my point still stands. If you think that the support for gay marriage is somehow a liberal ruse to destroy Catholicism, then you are missing the point. By a wide margin. I am not saying that there aren’t people who would wish you harm, but if we concentrate on the matter at hand, then we can both deal with those people as a separate matter.

That’s an internal problem that you have and I really have no say in how you keep your own house in order. But I can say, looking from the outside, that the number of Catholics who are ignoring the Vatican on what you would consider serious questions of morality is casting doubts both inside and outside the church as to what it actually means to be a Catholic.

I have always tried my best to respect other people’s beliefs and to consider them when I have a point of view that contrasts with that belief. But there is a point when the beliefs are held by so few people that in all honesty, they cease to be a consideration.

I know that you may well point to the fact that certain aspects of morality are not up for a vote; that they are still Catholic teachings; that you could point to the catechism and ex cathedra pronunciations from the Vatican.

But they are only applicable to other Catholics. They do not apply to me. So in the case of contraception, for example, I really don’t consider it to be a Catholic belief any more. Hardly anyone follows the church on this, so I feel quite at ease ignoring the ‘official’ position.

And that’s where you’re heading with gay marriage. And the polls, whilst you may think they are not important in themselves, are pointing unerringly to the problems you are going to have in the not so distant future.

 

[Faithdancer]

LOL the Catholic Church has survived nearly two thousand years of heresies and heterodoxies. If all gays who attend the Catholic Church left the Church at this moment, the Church will survive just fine.

Anyone claiming to be Catholic who believes that gay “marriage” should be recognized by the Catholic Church is heterodox. Anyone claiming to be Catholic who advocates performing same sex marriages inthe Catholic Church is a heretic.

 

[Julia_Mae]

LOL the Catholic Church has survived nearly two thousand years of heresies and heterodoxies. If all gays who attend the Catholic Church left the Church at this moment, the Church will survive just fine.

But if all the American Catholics who support gay marriage left the Church, between that and the scandals, the American Catholic Church would be bankrupt. OTOH, at least it would solve the priest shortage. And it might be very good for the soul of the Church.

Anyone claiming to be Catholic who believes that gay “marriage” should be recognized by the Catholic Church is heterodox. Anyone claiming to be Catholic who advocates performing same sex marriages inthe Catholic Church is a heretic.

Well, this is pretty far off-topic, which is: **Re: Why do gays want marriage? What do they hope gain from it?
**
If the social implications of gay marriage being legalized and the fight over that caused a mass exodus from the Church (it won’t) and if all the priests who agreed or were gay went also, well, then there’s a serious priest shortage again.

Not to mention a dearth of music directors.

 

[CopticChristian]

But if all the American Catholics who support gay marriage left the Church, between that and the scandals, the American Catholic Church would be bankrupt. OTOH, at least it would solve the priest shortage. And it might be very good for the soul of the Church.

Well, this is pretty far off-topic, which is: **Re: Why do gays want marriage? What do they hope gain from it?
**
If the social implications of gay marriage being legalized and the fight over that caused a mass exodus from the Church (it won’t) and if all the priests who agreed or were gay went also, well, then there’s a serious priest shortage again.

Not to mention a dearth of music directors.

Julia,

Lets not forget that Hippo went Arian and the Church was left with the writings of Augustine, in Africa I might add. If the Catholic Church crumbled in the US then please don’t forget it is just a franchise and the original is in Rome. We will just have to go meet in homes like the Protestants.

 

[Faithdancer]

I’ve already answered the original question on a previous post. But since that one is long buried, I’ll say it once more:
Gays want “marriage” because having this right will help them to feel that they are normal. Gays also hope to convince heterosexuals that homosexuality is normal, and not a perversion. Gays think that by being “married” they will gain complete acceptance for homosexuality.

There is another answer to the question though, and I don’t have to apologize for saying it here because this is a Catholic forum- those who engage in sex with others of the same sex are in the grip of evil, and the devil is at work to convince them that it is not evil, as well as to convince heterosexuals that homosexual activity is not evil. The devil is also at work to convince everyone that gay “marriage” is a good, and that everyone will somehow gain from allowing gays to have their “marriages.”

 

[CopticChristian]

I’ve already answered the original question on a previous post. But since that one is long buried, I’ll say it once more:
Gays want “marriage” because having this right will help them to feel that they are normal. Gays also hope to convince heterosexuals that homosexuality is normal, and not a perversion. Gays think that by being “married” they will gain complete acceptance for homosexuality.

There is another answer to the question though, and I don’t have to apologize for saying it here because this is a Catholic forum- those who engage in sex with others of the same sex are in the grip of evil, and the devil is at work to convince them that it is not evil, as well as to convince heterosexuals that homosexual activity is not evil. The devil is also at work to convince everyone that gay “marriage” is a good, and that everyone will somehow gain from allowing gays to have their “marriages.”

Faith,

Paul said this very thing over 2000 years ago…

24Therefore God gave them over in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, so that their bodies would be dishonored among them. 25For they exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen.

  26For this reason God gave them over to degrading passions; for their women exchanged the natural function for that which is unnatural, 27and in the same way also the men abandoned the natural function of the woman and burned in their desire toward one another, men with men committing indecent acts and receiving in their own persons the due penalty of their error.

  28And just as they did not see fit to acknowledge God any longer, God gave them over to a depraved mind, to do those things which are not proper, 29being filled with all unrighteousness, wickedness, greed, evil; full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, malice; they are gossips, 30slanderers, haters of God, insolent, arrogant, boastful, inventors of evil, disobedient to parents, 31without understanding, untrustworthy, unloving, unmerciful; 32and although they know the ordinance of God, that those who practice such things are worthy of death, they not only do the same, but also give hearty approval to those who practice them.

They want to choose NOT GOD and approve of those that choose NOT GOD and want others to join them in choosing NOT GOD…misery loves company, wait and see…I want to be around to pick up the pieces…pretty good song…

 

[Faithdancer]

Faith,

Paul said this very thing over 2000 years ago…

They want to choose NOT GOD and approve of those that choose NOT GOD and want others to join them in choosing NOT GOD…misery loves company, wait and see…I want to be around to pick up the pieces…pretty good song…

Thank you for posting the passage from Paul, Coptic Christian. It really is a moral issue as well as a social issue, but Satan wants to convince Catholic Christians, among others, that it is not. Satan, the Prince of Lies, loves to mock the Sacraments, including marriage. What better way to mock the Sacrament of Marriage than to allow gays to marry?

I appreciate the fortitude of those who stand up for this truth here. I don’t understand those who are lukewarm, to use Paul’s terminology, particularly on a forum called “Catholic Answers.” Well, Christ tells us what happens to the lukewarm in Rev. 3:16.

 

[InSearchofGrace]

I’m not asking about the moral issues of same sex marriage. What I am wondering is, why is this such a big deal for homosexuals? What are they trying to accomplish?

What Radical Gays Really Want

In the middle of the author’s linked article directed to radical gays who are pushing to legalize same sex ‘marriage’:

You want to live in a world in which everyone regards what you do and how you live not only as normal, but as a positive good. And your attempts to legalize “gay marriage” are about this and this alone. It is not about “equal rights” that you already possess, it is not about the freedom to openly identify as gay, which you already have. It is about using the power of the state to force society to recognize your living arrangements and lifestyle choices as legitimate. It is about policing the thoughts and opinions of the American people.

 

[Faithdancer]

What Radical Gays Really Want

In the middle of the author’s linked article directed to radical gays who are pushing to legalize same sex ‘marriage’:

Nothing lukewarm there!

 

[Seeker1961]

The original question was answered by a number of us. I’m guessing you were looking for something specific?

Bottom line-if you are Catholic, there will never be any such thing as gay marriage. However, there already are, and will likely be more civil gay marriages. You’re going to have to deal with that like you deal with everything else in the world that the Church says is not ok but the secular world says is ok.

Interesting to me-I’ve been gay my whole life and the only time I EVER hear about a “radical gay agenda” is from people who are not gay and are usually borderline hostile towards those who are. Nobody issued it to me with a pair of Birkenstocks and my flannel shirt. For most of us, the “agenda” is pretty much like yours-go to school, get a job, pay your bills,maybe if you’re lucky get a little travel or vacation time in there.

If there is one misconception I would love to eradicate is that gay people are this monolithic block of angry people that all march in lockstep and have some “master plan” to destroy the lives of all the “good people” who do everything right all the time. It’s simply not true and it causes a lot of unnecessary hurt.

 

[BobCatholic]

Bob, Catholic Charities had a grant and contract with the Federal government to handle the adoptions. Maybe the contract was with the state, but the money was Federal Grant money. They list it in their 990s. When they wouldn’t comply, the Feds took back the money. Catholic Charities had most of their funding from government grants, like over 60%. That’s how they managed to do the adoption service program.

Now - if Catholic Charities had the money to run adoption services of it’s own and serviced only Catholics, the government would have no say in whether or not they gave children to gay people.

That’s why I talk about the money, because the grant money was the issue that closed them. Yes, they refused to comply. Then they lost their grant. So they stopped.

“when they don’t comply” - comply with what? The federal government didn’t shut them down, the STATE GOVERNMENT did.

And not because of a contract, but because of STATE LAW.

Please actually read what I wrote.

Freedom of religion, void where prohibited by law.