Why do homilies ..... well, stink?

[PJM]

=EasterJoy;6255961]Do you mean this, then?

Instead of being about the art of how not to unintentionally or unnecessarily give offense (which would have been a good thing) what has become known as political correctness has instead engendered the widespread sense that one has a right not to be offended and at the same time has a right to take anything one does not happen to like as actually being offensive in some objective sense.

Likewise, the perhaps-useful concept of self-esteem has been turned into a right to self-satisfaction.

Because of these developments (by which I believe decent ideas have been diabolically twisted, in a very literal sense), it is nearly impossible to ask even Christians to consider that they need improvement in a direction not of their own choosing without offending them. If you offend them, they consider it both your (in this case, the homilist’s) fault and a legitimate reason to penalize the Church financially, in order to stop the “offending” behavior.

If so, I think you’re right about that.

I also think the art of oral rhetoric is not widely known or appreciated. Even when people know how to listen, few speakers know how to address them in an effective manner. I also think electronic media do wreck listening skills, making many people hard to reach via any kind of oral communication. More and more people are entertainable, they might remember very short, very catchy phrases, but they are otherwise, well, intellectually inert, particularly by purely oral communication.

Homilists have a tough row to hoe. I think the smart ones aim at the decent listeners, and let the rest catch up as they may. You don’t learn to listen when nobody ever expects you to listen. If you are constantly bombarded with watered-down messages, even an able listener will have a hard time continuing to listen. Given good oral presentations, people learn to like them.

***You friend are a very godd listener:thumbsup:

THANK You ***

 

[EasterJoy]

I just can’t imagine preaching a sermon in five minutes. I’d feel like I was neglecting my call to preach.

My dad was fond of a story told to him by a priest friend. Another priest kept a whiskey jigger on the ambo, from which the Word and the homily are proclaimed. Why? Because a really good homily is like a really good bourbon. If well-made, a small amount is entirely satisfactory, but if you pour too much, the vessel will overflow and precious stuff will go to waste. The message was to distill the message very carefully, aiming for excellence and strength in the final product, and then don’t pour too much at a time, lest some be wasted. It takes far, far longer to craft a fine five-minute homily, and it takes a great deal of self-discipline, too, but I find the result to be far better than the less-distilled version.

With the readings we get on a Sunday, an able homilist can give a true week’s worth to chew on in less than ten minutes. Really!

(OK, I’m in the crowd that would say “make mine a double”, but that is because our homilists are good.)

 

[LilyM]

I just can’t imagine preaching a sermon in five minutes. I’d feel like I was neglecting my call to preach.

One of our great saints, Francis of Assisi, famous for his generosity and charity to the poor and needy, said ‘preach the Gospel at all times, and if necessary use words.’

In other words our good works and the example we set in the way we live our lives are just as much truly preaching, just as much a witness for Christ, as any amount of words.

Mind you, there’s a phrase about empty vessels making the most noise that comes to mind too … not, I am sure, that it applies to you

If you look at the New Testament, I certainly don’t recall either Christ or the Apostles being recorded as making any especially long sermons - certainly not 40 minutes or an hour!

 

[Tepeyac]

I like that idea. Do you know any good ones that would be for the Mass readings for each day? For example, some devotionals you can buy have the readings listed and printed out for each day, then they have a short “homily” for that days readings. Are there any good (faithful) ones on-line that I could print out?

Check this out: Daily Word for Reflection. It posts the days readings with commentary from the Navarre Bible. There’s a link at that site where you can receive the readings a week ahead.

Also check out Scott Hahn’s Homily Helps page for the Sunday readings.

 

[Silence_Dogood_1]

One of our great saints, Francis of Assisi, famous for his generosity and charity to the poor and needy, said ‘preach the Gospel at all times, and if necessary use words.’

I’ve never understood how one can preach the Gospel without words, since preaching requires proclamation. And the ironic thing is that Francis was quite a prolific preacher of the Gospel, which is why a lot of scholars doubt whether or not he’s actually the one who said that.

What’s more, you cannot preach the word of God expositionally by osmosis.

I can’t imagine a history professors aying, “I’m going to go and feed the poor and, by my doing so, you will understand the facts and causes of the War of 1812”.

In other words our good works and the example we set in the way we live our lives are just as much truly preaching, just as much a witness for Christ, as any amount of words.

Jesus didn’t say, “I came to show the world what as well guy I am so they’d repent”. He said, “I came to call the world to repent.”

When Peter got up on the day of Pentcost to preach the Gospel, he didn’t say, “look at all my good deeds”. He said, “Repent!”

Paul didn’t say, “Woe to me if I don’t do good deeds”. He said, “Woe to me if I don’t preach the Gospel”.

If you look at the New Testament, I certainly don’t recall either Christ or the Apostles being recorded as making any especially long sermons - certainly not 40 minutes or an hour!

Actually, it was the custom to preach for the better part of an afternoon.

Look at Acts 20:7. Paul started preaching in the afternoon and that verse tells us that he kept on preaching until midnight. It goes on to tell us that Paul preached for so long, Eutychus fell asleep.

I’ve never preached that long, but five minutes is barely enough time to set up the introduction to the text.

 

[japhy]

I’ve never understood how one can preach the Gospel without words, since preaching requires proclamation.

The Gospel is not simply about salvation, but also about compassion: God’s love for us, our love for God, and our love for one another. Seeing an example of self-sacrificing love might provide the nudge a person needs to get them to understand God’s love (and thus, the need for repentance).

Jesus didn’t say, “I came to show the world what as well guy I am so they’d repent”. He said, “I came to call the world to repent.”

When Peter got up on the day of Pentcost to preach the Gospel, he didn’t say, “look at all my good deeds”. He said, “Repent!”

Paul didn’t say, “Woe to me if I don’t do good deeds”. He said, “Woe to me if I don’t preach the Gospel”.

All fine examples of preaching. But you are setting up a false dichotomy between preaching and service (doing good works). It is not “preaching or service”, but rather “preaching and service”.

[Jesus said,] “Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works and give glory to your Father who is in heaven.” (Matt. 5:16)

“No, ‘if your enemy is hungry, feed him; if he is thirsty, give him drink; for by so doing you will heap burning coals upon his head.’” (Rom. 12:20) Cryptic at first, but certainly applicable to “preaching the Gospel without words”.

“So then, as we have opportunity, let us do good to all men, and especially to those who are of the household of faith.” (Gal. 6:10)

“For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.” (Eph. 2:10)

“… lead a life worthy of the Lord, fully pleasing to him, bearing fruit in every good work and increasing in the knowledge of God.” (Col. 1:10)

“See that none of you repays evil for evil, but always seek to do good to one another and to all.” (1 Th. 5:15)

“But be doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving yourselves. For if any one is a hearer of the word and not a doer, he is like a man who observes his natural face in a mirror; for he observes himself and goes away and at once forgets what he was like. But he who looks into the perfect law, the law of liberty, and perseveres, being no hearer that forgets but a doer that acts, he shall be blessed in his doing.” (Jas. 1:22-25)

“… let us consider how to stir up one another to love and good works.” (Heb. 10:24)

… five minutes is barely enough time to set up the introduction to the text.

Could you describe what you mean by “introduction to the text”? I ask because in Catholic liturgies:

• the Gospel reading is usually sequential (so what we hear this week follows shortly after what we heard last week),
• the First Reading (from the Old Testament) is thematically related to the Gospel (e.g. Isaiah 6, where Isaiah says “I am a man of unclean lips”, yet God prepares him and sends him – Luke 5, where Simon says “Depart from me, Lord, for I am a sinful man”, yet Jesus calls him to be a fisher of men and he leaves everything behind to follow Him),
• the Psalm is a thematic response to the First Reading,
• and the Second Reading (from the epistles) is sequential week-to-week.

(Although, to be honest, the Second Reading is rarely thematically related to the Gospel and often gets completely overlooked in the homilies I hear.)

So the “introduction” to the text is, more or less, already supplied, apart from a bit of context for the Old Testament and Epistle passages…

 

[Incomplete]

I’ve never preached that long, but five minutes is barely enough time to set up the introduction to the text.

I’m not sure how you judge when you’ve said enough. I can tell you this: my priest normally preaches for about 10 minutes, yet his homilies have changed who I am, so obviously he’s saying enough.

 

[benedictgal]

I’ve never understood how one can preach the Gospel without words, since preaching requires proclamation. And the ironic thing is that Francis was quite a prolific preacher of the Gospel, which is why a lot of scholars doubt whether or not he’s actually the one who said that.

What’s more, you cannot preach the word of God expositionally by osmosis.

I can’t imagine a history professors aying, “I’m going to go and feed the poor and, by my doing so, you will understand the facts and causes of the War of 1812”.

Jesus didn’t say, “I came to show the world what as well guy I am so they’d repent”. He said, “I came to call the world to repent.”

When Peter got up on the day of Pentcost to preach the Gospel, he didn’t say, “look at all my good deeds”. He said, “Repent!”

Paul didn’t say, “Woe to me if I don’t do good deeds”. He said, “Woe to me if I don’t preach the Gospel”.

Actually, it was the custom to preach for the better part of an afternoon.

Look at Acts 20:7. Paul started preaching in the afternoon and that verse tells us that he kept on preaching until midnight. It goes on to tell us that Paul preached for so long, Eutychus fell asleep.

I’ve never preached that long, but five minutes is barely enough time to set up the introduction to the text.

However, the Church takes to heart the six-word command that her Divine Spouse gave at the Last Supper: “Do this in Memory of Me”, which is to say, the celebration of the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass. Protestant ecclesial communities only have the Word. The Church has both the Word and the Sacrifice.

While preaching is important, it is not given the same weight as the Sacrifice of Jesus, which the Church celebrates every day in the Mass. Preaching is an intergral component of Sunday Mass (optional during the week), but, it is not the end all and be all of our worship. However, there is to be quality in the homilies that are delivered by the bishops, priests and deacons. That is why the Holy Father is providing an effective example of quality preaching.

 

[peary1]

I’m 37 and a lifelong Catholic. One thing I notice about Mass is the homiles are dry, and boring. In my diocese it seems to be the norm. Rarely do you hear a homily on sin, hell, the devil, abortion, birthcontrol, purgatory, confession, the real presence in the Eucharist, doctrine or dogma. These are all things we believe in as Catholics but never or rarely ever discussed. Our priest almost talked about confession over the weekend at Mass, but danced around it without saying what it was or much about it, he hinted at it but that’s it. Its usually “we are all going to heaven” or a feel good “love your neighbor.” All these are good (love of neighbor, etc.), but they seem to be lacking (homilies) in any substance. Any idea’s on why this is the case? Is this normal?

God forbid that the homilist should tell the congregation as it is and not as what they want to hear! If you want to hear some great homilies and talks, listen to Father John Corapi, Father Larry Richards, or even Bishop Fulton Sheen. Believe me, there would not be any rest for the wicked if priests would model their homilies on the styles of these priests!

 

[Ferds_Guiang]

HI everyone! I couldn’t help but say my piece in this great thread. I’ve been a priest for almost 12 years but decided to resign from the ministry in 2006. Im from the Philippines by the way and have only been in the US once. Yes delivering the homily is one of the biggest challenges in the ordained ministry. Actually the Church says that the priest if foremostly a minister of the WORD and Sacrament. So preaching is one of the primary duties. Therefore priest should really exert a lot of effort to give good homilies. When I was still in the ministry I must confess that there were many times that I failed to preach a good homily. I offer no excuses since I know most if not all priests have enough time to prepare (well at least I could speak of priests here in the country, knowing the conditions). I also do believe however that there is an art of speaking and some priests do indeed have the gift. Does that mean that if a certain priest doesn’t have this gift then this priest has now an excuse to deliver bad homilies? I believe that if a priest does everything in his means to prepare I think anyone can give a decent homily. How can we help our priests? I think first we have to continuously pray with them for the light of the Holy Spirit. Also we could maybe suggest to them topics that they can discuss during the mass. Im sure priests will appreciate a regular feedback from the congregation.

 

[LilyM]

The Gospel is not simply about salvation, but also about compassion: God’s love for us, our love for God, and our love for one another. Seeing an example of self-sacrificing love might provide the nudge a person needs to get them to understand God’s love (and thus, the need for repentance).

Actually, the Gospel is about salvation THROUGH compassion as demonstrated by good works - isn’t the second great commandment to love our neighbour, after all?

And doesn’t Christ teach us that the good works we do - feeding the hungry, clothing the naked and the like - in a large part if not exclusively determine our salvation?

So what better way to lead someone to salvation than to teach them, by example, how to do those works which are pleasing to God?

What about LOVE? God’s very essence? Love is not something to be merely orally or verbally expounded upon, but practically demonstrated by loving deeds done for others.

‘He who loves knows God, for God IS love’ (or the words to that effect that John said). Didn’t Jesus say ‘by this shall all know that you are My disciples, that you have LOVE one for another’, not ‘by this shall all know … that you can preach riproaring sermons about Me for hours on end’.

 

[Silence_Dogood_1]

quote=japhy]The Gospel is not simply about salvation

Can you name a verse in the Bible where the Gospel is preached apart from the context of salvation?

All fine examples of preaching. But you are setting up a false dichotomy between preaching and service (doing good works).

No I’m not. I’m merely pointing out that they are two different things.

It is not “preaching or service”, but rather “preaching and service”.

No one is arguing that we shouldn’t do both, only that they’re two different things.

Could you describe what you mean by “introduction to the text”?

I mean the announcement of the text I’m going to be preaching on, a brief prayer, the reading of that text, and a brief explanation of what the text refers to.

incomplete:

I can tell you this: my priest normally preaches for about 10 minutes, yet his homilies have changed who I am, so obviously he’s saying enough.

That’s just completely foreign to me. I just can’t imagine having to cram so much into ten minutes.

LilyM:

So what better way to lead someone to salvation than to teach them, by example, how to do those works which are pleasing to God?

The problem with that is that it doesn’t tell them how to be saved, or even why they need to be saved. The issue isn’t a lack of good works, but of sin and the need to be forgiven and reconciled to God.

All the good works in the world won’t save you or negate your sin.

benedictgal:

However, the Church takes to heart the six-word command that her Divine Spouse gave at the Last Supper: “Do this in Memory of Me”, which is to say, the celebration of the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass. Protestant ecclesial communities only have the Word. The Church has both the Word and the Sacrifice.

You’re right. We don’t consider the Lord’s Supper a sacrifice, but that’s because we believe the Bible says that Christ’s sacrifice on the cross is our sacrifice.

 

[japhy]

And doesn’t Christ teach us that the good works we do - feeding the hungry, clothing the naked and the like - in a large part if not exclusively determine our salvation?

If you say that “good works … exclusively determine our salvation”, then it seems to me you’re talking about a works-salvation, and not giving any place to faith.

 

[japhy]

japhy:

The Gospel is not simply about salvation

Can you name a verse in the Bible where the Gospel is preached apart from the context of salvation?

That’s not what I said. I did not say that the Gospel is about some thing apart from salvation, but that the Gospel is not simply (or only) about salvation.

The direction this thread is taking lends itself more to the Apologetics forum than the Liturgy & Sacraments forum…

 

[EasterJoy]

Actually, the Gospel is about salvation THROUGH compassion as demonstrated by good works - isn’t the second great commandment to love our neighbour, after all?

And doesn’t Christ teach us that the good works we do - feeding the hungry, clothing the naked and the like - in a large part if not exclusively determine our salvation?

So what better way to lead someone to salvation than to teach them, by example, how to do those works which are pleasing to God?

What about LOVE? God’s very essence? Love is not something to be merely orally or verbally expounded upon, but practically demonstrated by loving deeds done for others.

‘He who loves knows God, for God IS love’ (or the words to that effect that John said). Didn’t Jesus say ‘by this shall all know that you are My disciples, that you have LOVE one for another’, not ‘by this shall all know … that you can preach riproaring sermons about Me for hours on end’.

Remember, though, what are the Spiritual Works of Mercy:
**Instruct the ignorant;
Counsel the doubtful;
Admonish sinners; **
Bear wrongs patiently;
Forgive offences willingly;
**Comfort the afflicted; **
Pray for the living and the dead.

For a priest, to shortchange the homily is to shortchange the works of charity required of him.
I won’t argue that toning down on the “rip-roaring” aspect is going to be any failure in any sense whatsoever, but if a priest fails to admonish the sinners in his care, he fails to act charitably towards them.

 

[frdude00]

Not all priests are “gifted” in the area of homiletics. The congregation today is very well educated and well read and it can certainly be a challenge to preach to everyone in the pew. As a priest of 11.5 years I can understand the concern. Personally I spend much time in preparation and prayer in Adoration of the Blessed Sacrament and then when it is time to let the Holy Spirit bring out the words. I will say honestly and humbly that preaching is one of my gifts where as sitting behind a desk as a “pen wielding” administrator is not. I am now recording and uploading my Sunday homilies at my website. I do not stand at the ambo and read from a text or notes. I stand in front of the congregation so I can see and “feel” their reaction. What can I say, that is me. If you feel that you are not “being fed” then you may have to travel a little to find a homilist that does speak to you. Remember, we priests are not always going to be 100% all the time. Each time “at bat” is not a grand slam. Pray for your priest especially in this Year of the Priest. Please check out my website and audio at blessedmotherschildren.com

 

[EasterJoy]

Not all priests are “gifted” in the area of homiletics. The congregation today is very well educated and well read and it can certainly be a challenge to preach to everyone in the pew. As a priest of 11.5 years I can understand the concern. Personally I spend much time in preparation and prayer in Adoration of the Blessed Sacrament and then when it is time to let the Holy Spirit bring out the words. I will say honestly and humbly that preaching is one of my gifts where as sitting behind a desk as a “pen wielding” administrator is not. I am now recording and uploading my Sunday homilies at my website. I do not stand at the ambo and read from a text or notes. I stand in front of the congregation so I can see and “feel” their reaction. What can I say, that is me. If you feel that you are not “being fed” then you may have to travel a little to find a homilist that does speak to you. Remember, we priests are not always going to be 100% all the time. Each time “at bat” is not a grand slam. Pray for your priest especially in this Year of the Priest. Please check out my website and audio at blessedmotherschildren.com

First of all, thank you for posting your homilies online. There are lots of people that find their pastor wholly satisfactory in many ways, but weak in the preaching department. That is a real need. Besides, even those of us with gifted homilists like to find ways to hear more. I think there are even priests who are curious to hear what other clergy find in some particular day’s readings.

You are right about one thing: the intellectual content of homilies ranges everywhere from non-existent to far beyond what even a college professor would dream of delivering to a class without pencils. Homilies are all over the map, not just in content, but in rhetorical effectiveness.

While more Catholics in the pews today have attended college, I think it would be difficult to prove that contemporary Catholics have as much knowledge about the faith as Catholics in ages past. If anything, I would be forced to guess that, on the average, Catholics know less about their faith and believe fewer of the tenets of the faith now than ever before. A substantial few, OTOH, have access to and knowledge of Church documents that was hardly dreamed of in ages past. How many of our grandparents ever read an encyclical?

There isn’t any reason to believe we should expect to think of homilies in terms of “home runs” at all. I think we sometimes get so wound up looking for gifted speakers that we neglect the work of becoming gifted listeners. The homily is first of all an act of worship, and an act of education second. If we listen, not to the homilist personally, but to God speaking through the Holy Scriptures and the homilist, the expectations are quite different than if we listen purely from the standpoint of expecting entertainment or academic exposition.

In other words, edification is a two-way street. You do have to lead the horse to water, but…

 

[frdude00]

Remember Justin,

We are fed on Word and Sacrament and within the Word is the opportunity to “break it open” for all to really try to understand. Although I have heard some homilies that have absolutely nothing to do with the Word just what “impresses Father.”

I’m not sure what you mean by “selling myself short.”

 

[John_Pascendi]

Its because they have fallen for the new age nonsense that Truth must be gentle and forgiving…while error can pretty well do what it wants!!! We must never offend Satan or his followers lest we get a dirty look or even a crestfallen sigh…while they can make movies,plays,commercials lampooning us from top to bottom ,in full color ,none the less and get away with it,even honored for it. As TR used to warn us “Life is like a football game,dont flinch,dont foul,but hit the line hard!” and thats what we need,not a suger coated homily that does not make us feel good but empty. Nature does not love a vacuum and thus if we as Catholic Christians do NOT fight for Truth and Justice and use that light to lead others to God,no wonder we are losing…to quote a cold war book of years ago. That pep speech by the coach in the movie…Ruby was just what we need…“we dont like it when someone comes into our house and pushes us around”…amen and amen…Pas

 

[Scott_D]

I’m 37 and a lifelong Catholic. One thing I notice about Mass is the homiles are dry, and boring. In my diocese it seems to be the norm. Rarely do you hear a homily on sin, hell, the devil, abortion, birthcontrol, purgatory, confession, the real presence in the Eucharist, doctrine or dogma. These are all things we believe in as Catholics but never or rarely ever discussed. Our priest almost talked about confession over the weekend at Mass, but danced around it without saying what it was or much about it, he hinted at it but that’s it. Its usually “we are all going to heaven” or a feel good “love your neighbor.” All these are good (love of neighbor, etc.), but they seem to be lacking (homilies) in any substance. Any idea’s on why this is the case? Is this normal?

I find that older priests far more often preach on the sacraments and do not water down Catholic doctrine. I have also found younger priests preach a feelgood homily on Sunday but who are much more direct during weekday masses.
By the way, I have been Catholic for 15 years and I have never heard a priest preach on purgatory or hell.