Why do liberal Catholics stay in the Church?

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Two thousand years of tradition are wrong, but one person’s conscience and ability to think are infallible?
I never said they were infallible. But as long as we’re reductio ad absurdum-ing, I might as well join in. My point is that if you obey whatever church leadership says is “tradition” whether or not it violates your own conscience, there’s a slippery slope to doing some really horrible things. If you treat same-sex attraction as “objectively disordered”, as the CDF tells us to, despite your conscience telling you it’s wrong, what’s to keep you from turning in heretics for interrogation and torture? That’s in church tradition, isn’t it?

One more point. Correct me if I’m wrong, but doesn’t the Church actually teach that our own consciences should tell us what to accept? Isn’t that the whole doctrine of primacy of conscience?
 
I never said they were infallible. But as long as we’re reductio ad absurdum-ing, I might as well join in. My point is that if you obey whatever church leadership says is “tradition” whether or not it violates your own conscience, there’s a slippery slope to doing some really horrible things. If you treat same-sex attraction as “objectively disordered”, as the CDF tells us to, despite your conscience telling you it’s wrong, what’s to keep you from turning in heretics for interrogation and torture? That’s in church tradition, isn’t it?
It is not reductio ad absurdum; it is at the core of the issue. If your conscience is fallible, how do you know when it is, as when you’re rationalizing?

As far as the slippery slope is concerned, it is considered a fallacy. fallacyfiles.org/slipslop.html
One more point. Correct me if I’m wrong, but doesn’t the Church actually teach that our own consciences should tell us what to accept? Isn’t that the whole doctrine of primacy of conscience?
No. Not the “whole” doctrine. You need to do some more research.
… the Vatican has said plainly: ‘A well-formed Christian conscience does not permit [for example] one to vote for a political program or an individual law which contradicts the fundamental contents of faith and morals.’
… primacy of conscience … does not and can not mean ‘anything goes.’ If that mistaken idea were so, then if one’s conscience said it was okay to hate Jews and blacks, you could do that and it would be just fine morally. renewamerica.com/columns/gaynor/060306
III. The Formation of Conscience
Every individual has the grave duty to form his or her own conscience in the light of that objective truth which everyone can come to know, and which no one may be prevented from knowing. To claim that one has a right to act according to conscience, but without at the same time acknowledging the duty to conform one’s conscience to the truth and to the law which God himself has written on our hearts, in the end means nothing more than imposing one’s limited personal opinion. …
vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/messages/peace/documents/hf_jp-ii_mes_08121990_xxiv-world-day-for-peace_en.html
So this “primacy of conscience” argument is not a convenient escape hatch that I can use to rationalize my error.
 
I have to ask: I’m considering converting to Catholicism. I happen to also be very liberal. What is it about Catholicism that would be a problem for me because of my liberalism?

I understand the abortion, birth control, and gay marriage issues. But, aside from these issues, what is it that makes being a liberal Catholic problematic?
 
I have to ask: I’m considering converting to Catholicism. I happen to also be very liberal. What is it about Catholicism that would be a problem for me because of my liberalism?

I understand the abortion, birth control, and gay marriage issues. But, aside from these issues, what is it that makes being a liberal Catholic problematic?
It depends on what you mean by “liberal”. For example, do you think a person is moral because of his actions, or because of the political causes he supports?
 
It depends on what you mean by “liberal”. For example, do you think a person is moral because of his actions, or because of the political causes he supports?
I think support for a cause counts as an individual’s action. But, you ask the same question I’m asking, I think. Yes, it depends on what is meant by liberal. If liberal necessarily means pro-abortion and pro-birth control, then I can see the problem, but exactly what is it about Catholicism that excludes liberalism, according to the topic of this thread? What about a liberal person gets in the way of his/her being Catholic? It’s what this entire thread is based on.
 
… but exactly what is it about Catholicism that excludes liberalism, according to the topic of this thread? …
As I pointed out in an earlier response to another poster, relativism is close to [if not at] the top of the list. Relativism holds that everyone has his own truth, and everyone’s truth is equal. It might not be evident on the surface, but what this boils down to is Original Sin, which is man playing God by deciding what is right and wrong.

I also posted a list of dissident organizations who are demanding that the Church change some of its teachings to be more in line with liberal secular ideas, such as tolerance über alles. This is not Catholicism, but [at best] a thinly disguised Protestantism [no offense to Protestants] which teaches each individual should read the Bible and decide for himself what it means. Only a handful [if anyone] could, on their own, read the Bible and come up with what the Catechism says. Therefore, I would advise you to read the Catechism first; it has the basic Catholic concepts and references them to the Biblical passages they are based on.

Good luck, and God bless.
 
As I pointed out in an earlier response to another poster, relativism is close to [if not at] the top of the list.
Yes, I could see that the sort of relativism you speak of is more common among liberals. But, it’s not essential to liberalism, and it can be understood as a more sophisticated recognition of the effects of sociology on individuals rather than as an assumption that there’s not universal right and wrong. In other words, this isn’t a problem for me.
I also posted a list of dissident organizations who are demanding that the Church change some of its teachings to be more in line with liberal secular ideas, such as tolerance über alles. This is not Catholicism, but [at best] a thinly disguised Protestantism [no offense to Protestants] which teaches each individual should read the Bible and decide for himself what it means. Only a handful [if anyone] could, on their own, read the Bible and come up with what the Catechism says.
Agreed.
I would advise you to read the Catechism
Just finished it a week or so ago. It only increased my interest in converting. It’s an extremely liberal document!! The social teachings of the Church are extremely liberal.

I don’t think there’s any more problem with being “liberal” and being Catholic than there is with being “conservative” and being Catholic. You can point out examples of liberals–as you did–who will have problems, but the same could be said for conservatives.

Thanks. This eases my concerns. I thought I was missing something!
 
… Just finished it a week or so ago. It only increased my interest in converting. It’s an extremely liberal document!! The social teachings of the Church are extremely liberal.
It depends on what the topic is. You might look at the emphasis on the human community and conclude it is liberal; but if you study other aspects, you might come to a different conclusion. For example, the Church has condemned the various forms of socialism in which property is held in common, and it advocates subsidiarity, the idea that society’s various problems should not be raised to a higher level than necessary for their solution. These would be more conservative in nature. [Real case: Back in the late 1970s, the federal government funded a pet census in my hometown in California. What business does the **federal government have counting dogs? If dogs need counting, the city is the closest governing body to determine a) the problem, and b) the solution.]

The Church has been careful in recent times not to ally itself with any particular political movement because they change over time, sometimes for the better but usually for the worse. However, it has not hesitated to condemn certain political movements as inherently evil, such as Nazism, communism, etc.

As I pointed out, “liberal” the way I interpret the OP question to mean is wanting the Church to change to line up more with secular ideas.
… I thought I was missing something!
It doesn’t look like it.
 
It depends on what the topic is. You might look at the emphasis on the human community and conclude it is liberal; but if you study other aspects, you might come to a different conclusion.
Indeed. I think I’ve heard it said that the Church (as in that which the Catechism proclaims) is socially liberal (as it pertains to social justice) and morally conservative (as it pertains to abortion, marriage, etc).
 
It is not reductio ad absurdum; it is at the core of the issue. If your conscience is fallible, how do you know when it is, as when you’re rationalizing?

As far as the slippery slope is concerned, it is considered a fallacy. fallacyfiles.org/slipslop.html

No. Not the “whole” doctrine. You need to do some more research.

So this “primacy of conscience” argument is not a convenient escape hatch that I can use to rationalize my error.
Thank you for correcting me about church teaching as far as conscience is concerned. I didn’t really understand it.

Yes, the slippery slope is a fallacy, but if your claim is at “the core of the issue”, so is mine. Basically you’re reverting to extreme classicism; here in China, it’s one of the biggest problems we have. The idea of “It’s been done since Confucius’ time, so we can’t do it any other way.”

You claim that since we have done something a certain way for two thousand years, that’s the way we should continue to do it.

I claim that if something is proven to be wrong it should be changed, even if two thousand years have elapsed. Case in point: Galileo.
 
I never said they were infallible. But as long as we’re reductio ad absurdum-ing, I might as well join in. My point is that if you obey whatever church leadership says is “tradition” whether or not it violates your own conscience, there’s a slippery slope to doing some really horrible things. If you treat same-sex attraction as “objectively disordered”, as the CDF tells us to, despite your conscience telling you it’s wrong, what’s to keep you from turning in heretics for interrogation and torture? That’s in church tradition, isn’t it?
Perhaps it would help if you explained what you mean by “tradition”.

It seems that you are not aware that there is a difference between Sacred Tradition and “tradition”, which are customs and practices.

So what is it that you mean by “tradition”?
 
Is it possible for liberals to stay in the church because they feel some connection in the charity of the church?

I know the church does much to help others, but perhaps others believe that they can influence the church in their own way…?

I wouldn’t know, I’m not really a liberal of the kind that want to change the church to make others “feel” better. I quite like the Catholic Church the way it is.

-MontChevalier
 
Thank you for correcting me about church teaching as far as conscience is concerned. I didn’t really understand it.

Yes, the slippery slope is a fallacy, but if your claim is at “the core of the issue”, so is mine. Basically you’re reverting to extreme classicism; here in China, it’s one of the biggest problems we have. The idea of “It’s been done since Confucius’ time, so we can’t do it any other way.”

You claim that since we have done something a certain way for two thousand years, that’s the way we should continue to do it.
This is a common misconception of the role of tradition and is not what I am claiming. In fact, to do something a certain way because that’s the way it’s always been done should also be a fallacy if it already isn’t. BUT, that is no excuse to assume automatically that our default position should be that tradition is always wrong. Tradition does have an important role to play:
… For in forming our beliefs we must always start somewhere, and have nowhere else to start except the general picture of the world we have inherited from our parents, society, and people who, due to special experience or study, have more knowledge of a subject matter than we do [IOW, tradition].
I claim that if something is proven to be wrong it should be changed, even if two thousand years have elapsed. Case in point: Galileo.
The Galileo case does not support your statement because he was never able to prove his theory. That didn’t happen until several hundred years later when science had evolved to the point were it could.

The story of Galileo is long but it boils down to his having a theory [derived from Copernicus, BTW, who preceded Galileo and was not persecuted for having the same idea]. What caused the conflict was Galileo’s insistence that the Church change its interpretation of Scripture based on his unproven theory. If you had been the pope, what would your reaction have been to his suggestion?

When things are proven to be wrong, they are changed. Cases in point: the American Revolution, the abolition of slavery.
 
But conscience and “thinking for yourself” are linked. Forming your conscience is dependent on right reason. What I have observed in people who use this excuse is that they have formed their conscience through rationalization.
That may be true, but I’m not sure how you could “observe” such a thing, not being able to perceive the depths of the heart.
A priest once told me that if he became convinced that the CC no longer taught the truth, he would be conscience-bound to look for it elsewhere. So why do liberal Catholics stay in the Church if they are conscience-bound to find truth elsewhere? Sounds like they are not following their conscience.
First of all, a case can be made that this priest has adopted a fundamentally Protestant understanding of the true Church. As the Protestant apologist Martin Chemnitz said, the fundamental difference between the two views is that Protestants think that the Church is the true Church because it teaches true doctrine (speaking of traditional, confessional Protestantism here), while Catholics think the Church teaches true doctrine because it is the true Church.

If you are a Catholic, and you become convinced that a particular statement from the Vatican is not true, your first assumption should surely be not that the Catholic Church is false but that this particular Vatican statement does not adequately express the teaching of the Church. There are certainly statements issued from Rome in the past that Catholics would not see today as the teaching of the Church–an example I often cite is Pope Leo X’s condemnation in Exsurge Domine of the proposition that the Holy Spirit disapproves of the burning of heretics. Are you really willing to say that someone like Erasmus, who certainly disagreed with Pope Leo on this point, was wrong to stay in the Church? Wouldn’t it follow that nearly all contemporary Catholics, transported in time back to 1520, would be obligated to leave the Church?

There do seem to be some liberal Catholics (almost certainly a minority of those whom folks on this forum would call liberals) whose loyalty to the Church is indeed disconnected from any confidence that the Church as an institution will teach the truth. Certainly these folks are unorthodox. But the central principle they retain–loyalty to the Church as a community–is still a Catholic principle, and surely more conservative Catholics ought to exhort them to embrace the further Catholic teaching of infallibility rather than abandoning the Catholic teaching that they do hold (that it is wrong to leave the Church) in favor of thoroughgoing Protestantism.

Edwin
 
You have no objective insight into which forum members are motivated to follow Church teachings because of “fear.”
True enough. But I do have a lot of experience of how conservative Protestants behave when they are trying to make up for the absence of a Magisterium by zealously and nervously policing doctrinal boundaries. And it’s curious to note exactly the same behavior among Catholics, who presumably don’t need it.
Nor is a desire to follow Church teachings “a hindrance to living and thinking virtuously.” :rolleyes:
Indeed. Nor did I suggest in any way that it was. But the word “follow” can be used in two senses: are Church teachings a guide, or a guidepost? I think the latter. One best follows Church teachings by exploring further along the direction in which they point, not by walking in their footsteps and making sure you don’t get ahead of them. Since Church teachings are not people, such an approach doesn’t make any sense.

In the former sense, we are to follow Jesus and Jesus alone, as you yourself said in a different context and with a different polemical agenda:D

Edwin
 
Again, why are we trying to paint Jesus as either a liberal or a conservative? :confused:
Agreed. Calling Jesus’ position on divorce, for instance, “liberal” reduces the word to meaninglessness.

Edwin
 
That may be true, but I’m not sure how you could “observe” such a thing, not being able to perceive the depths of the heart.
How about starting where you want to be and arguing back from there?
“I want to vote for øbama who supports unrestricted abortion on demand; the church says I must support the elimination of abortion. But wait! Øbama wants to re-distribute wealth. Once he does that, there will be less demand for abortion. VOILA!!! I now can vote for øbama with a clean conscience!”
*First of all, a case can be made that this priest has adopted a fundamentally Protestant understanding of the true Church. *…
I don’t care what you call it. If you accept the propositions that you must follow your conscience, that you must seek the truth, and that the Church no longer teaches the truth, you have the obligation to find it elsewhere. Is that rationalization?
 
How about starting where you want to be and arguing back from there?“I want to vote for øbama who supports unrestricted abortion on demand; the church says I must support the elimination of abortion. But wait! Øbama wants to re-distribute wealth. Once he does that, there will be less demand for abortion. VOILA!!! I now can vote for øbama with a clean conscience!”
First of all, this is a caricature of what Catholics who support Obama actually say. In the second place, one could just as well argue that the arguments made by a lot of folks on this forum about how Catholic social teaching really doesn’t prevent them from following a right-wing libertarian ideology are rationalization. I think that most well-informed and thoughtful Catholics would say that Catholic social teaching doesn’t well correspond to the ideologies of either U.S. party at present, and thus that Catholics have some very difficult prudential decisions to make when they decide for whom to vote. The fact that you leap to the accusation that those who come down differently than you do on the practical question are “rationalizing” makes my point very well: you and other conservative Catholics are trying to hijack the rich Tradition of the Church for your own ideological goals, which are themselves informed by secular ideologies (your hostility to any kind of “redistribution of wealth”) that are hardly Catholic in origin.
I don’t care what you call it. If you accept the propositions that you must follow your conscience, that you must seek the truth, and that the Church no longer teaches the truth, you have the obligation to find it elsewhere. Is that rationalization?
Disagreeing with a particular document issued by the CDF, or even by the Pope, hardly constitutes saying that the Church no longer teaches the truth.

I repeat my earlier question: Would a Catholic in 1520 who believed that the burning of heretics was indeed against the will of the Spirit be obligated to leave the Church? This isn’t a theoretical question. There were Catholics, such as Erasmus, who disagreed with Luther’s dogmatic rejection of basic Catholic teaching but also disagreed with this particular papal statement, as well as with other things that conservative Catholics of their day considered to be central truths. Those folks have been largely vindicated by the later development of Catholic teaching. Your position requires you to say that they were dishonest for not leaving the Church, even though now nearly all Catholics agree with them.

If your position doesn’t require you to say this, please tell me what counsel you would give such a Catholic in 1520.

Edwin
 
First of all, this is a caricature of what Catholics who support Obama actually say.
It’s what they’ve actually told me.
In the second place, one could just as well argue that the arguments made by a lot of folks on this forum about how Catholic social teaching really doesn’t prevent them from following a right-wing libertarian ideology are rationalization.
You could make that argument.
I think that most well-informed and thoughtful Catholics would say that Catholic social teaching doesn’t well correspond to the ideologies of either U.S. party at present, and thus that Catholics have some very difficult prudential decisions to make when they decide for whom to vote.
I would agree that it is desperately difficult to rationalize a vote for an abortionist candidate when your church has reasonably explained why you shouldn’t.
The fact that you leap to the accusation that those who come down differently than you do on the practical question are “rationalizing” makes my point very well: you and other conservative Catholics are trying to hijack the rich Tradition of the Church for your own ideological goals, which are themselves informed by secular ideologies (your hostility to any kind of “redistribution of wealth”) that are hardly Catholic in origin.
Now you are caricaturing. It might not be Catholic in origin, but consider:
…To remedy these wrongs [caused by the concentration of wealth], the socialists, working on the poor man’s envy of the rich, are striving to do away with private property, and contend that individual possessions should become the common property of all, to be administered by the State or by municipal bodies. They hold that by thus transferring property from private individuals to the community, the present mischievous state of things will be set to rights, inasmuch as each citizen will then get his fair share of whatever there is to enjoy. But their contentions are so clearly powerless to end the controversy that were they carried into effect the working man himself would be among the first to suffer. They are, moreover, emphatically unjust, for they would rob the lawful possessor, distort the functions of the State, and create utter confusion in the community.
RERUM NOVARUM
On Capital and Labor

Encyclical of Pope Leo XIII MAY 15, 1891
And I don’t think it has been reversed.
Disagreeing with a particular document issued by the CDF, or even by the Pope, hardly constitutes saying that the Church no longer teaches the truth.
I agree with this statement, but it hardly characterizes the dissident groups I listed.
*I repeat my earlier question: Would a Catholic in 1520 who believed that the burning of heretics was indeed against the will of the Spirit be obligated to leave the Church? This isn’t a theoretical question. There were Catholics, such as Erasmus, who disagreed with Luther’s dogmatic rejection of basic Catholic teaching but also disagreed with this particular papal statement, as well as with other things that conservative Catholics of their day considered to be central truths. Those folks have been largely vindicated by the later development of Catholic teaching. Your position requires you to say that they were dishonest for not leaving the Church, even though now nearly all Catholics agree with them.
If your position doesn’t require you to say this, please tell me what counsel you would give such a Catholic in 1520. *
You are asking me to judge yesterday by today’s standards, and I can’t do that. But it sounds like you are saying we must extrapolate from condemning heretic burning of 1520 to going along with what these dissidents want today on the outside chance that the Church will approve of their heresies 491 years from now. A tad bit of a stretch.

In simple terms, if the Church is selling Chevvies and I want a Ford, I either buy a Chevvie or go down the street to the Ford dealer if owning a Ford is that important to me. If the church changes to selling Fords because of my agitation, there would be no choice, and the folks who want Chevvies are out of luck because of my selfishness. Capisce?
 
True enough. But I do have a lot of experience of how conservative Protestants behave when they are trying to make up for the absence of a Magisterium by zealously and nervously policing doctrinal boundaries. And it’s curious to note exactly the same behavior among Catholics, who presumably don’t need it.

Indeed. Nor did I suggest in any way that it was. But the word “follow” can be used in two senses: are Church teachings a guide, or a guidepost? I think the latter. One best follows Church teachings by exploring further along the direction in which they point, not by walking in their footsteps and making sure you don’t get ahead of them. Since Church teachings are not people, such an approach doesn’t make any sense.

In the former sense, we are to follow Jesus and Jesus alone, as you yourself said in a different context and with a different polemical agenda:D

Edwin
Respectfully, Edwin, I think you’re equaintg faithful adherence with reactionary (“zealous policing”) behavior. Sometimes one is the other, but certainly not always. And you do it also with interchanging ‘guide’ for ‘guidepost.’ Thirdly, you assume a lot (assumed a lot, earlier) when you make the leap from the use of traditional sources to a particular ‘polemic’ or intent. Such connections cannot be assumed. Let me clarify a couple of things for you,though, since you are not Catholic.

A theologically derived “guide,” (for a practicing Catholic), articulated by their Church, is not a series of suggestions. It is a framework (integrated system) for making moral decisions. Thus, it is different from a book about Catholic spirituality, written even by the Pope himself, which would be considered “a guide.” That framework is based on what the Church considers fixed (absolute) principles, such as Life and a creation ordered to God. I’m speaking here of the core moral teachings of the Church, such as the teachings on sexuality, reproduction, marriage, and family. Those magisterial teachings are definitive and not subject to private manipulation or selective adherence.

As to “following Jesus alone,” Catholics believe that their Church was founded by Him and is an extension of Him, and that, as He promised, the Spirit – the Paraclete – abides in that Church, which, by Jesus’ words, has the power “to bind and loose.”

However, the phenomenon of “making sure one’s steps do not get ahead [of the Church]” is not necessarily a mindset of rigidity as a motivator (although it can be); rather, rigidity is sometimes the fruit of some poorly catechized Catholics, who “wait” for contemporary clergy (or Rome) to speak before they either think or act. Both the guides and the guideposts have already been laid out for them; these are merely updated (applied) with contemporary pronouncements as modern issues arise. If you have the system of decision-making well integrated within your faith life, you are able to walk in union without having to walk in rhythmic lock-step.

Also (again because of poor catechesis), lots of modern Catholics do not understand which teachings are core & unchangeable, and which documents or oral statements are in fact guides, or in some cases even opinion or suggestion. And very often those Catholics have hidden political or emotional agendas, which they may not even be aware, or are not being honest with themselves about. for example, some view the moral teachings on Life issues (named above) as selectively applicable, depending on their peer group, but consider broad social policy statements (guides) as ‘absolute.’

I.m.o., the greatest crisis in the Church today is not clergy sexual abuse, not cafeteria Catholicism or dissent, not even large numbers of disaffected and nonpracticing Catholics. It is the residual bad catechesis which has existed for over 30 years and has not been sufficiently addressed, let alone reversed. People who are badly taught make bad decisions. The parallel of this is in the secular electorate; people who have not been taught to think critically, to discern fact from opinion (etc.), make shallow or emotional voting choices. That’s just across the board, universally.

I do not see this education crisis being redressed in the near future; that’s my greatest concern. Those of us with much better catechesis often benefitted from outstanding Catholic schools which, early on, provided a more thorough instruction in how to make decisions. I’m of the opinion that the framework is not well taught in token CCD classes, and certainly not in the 'rush" RCIA programs. A minimum of 2 years, preferably 4 cumulatively, from ages 14 to 21, in an intellectually sophisticated Catholic environment, is essential for most people unless one is exceptionally independent & motivated to learn these principles (and how to apply them) on one’s own. There are such laudably motivated people on CAF, who have shared their reading lists and private study results; they are to be commended for their initiative, but it is not the norm,
 
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