Why do lutherans call themselves evangelical catholics?

[guanophore]

I would say the PNCC are simply late Protestants, who accept Catholic tradition until well into the 1800s.

. Some fringe groups that split off after Vatican II I would label extremely late Protestants, even if they have the word “Catholic” in their title. If you’re going to label the PNCC as Catholic, why not Baptists? They are on the same side of an important line.

Well, the PNCC is a peculiar situation.

I think it is important for us to follow the lead of our Bishops on this matter:

USCCB

Joint Declaration on Unity

With thankfulness to God, the members of the Roman Catholic-Polish National Catholic dialogue in the United States look back on twenty-two years of theological and canonical reflection concerning the nature of our division and the possibility of reaching full communion…

Later, in 1980, His Holiness Pope John Paul II of blessed memory expressed the desire that the conference of bishops of the United States examine the relationship that exists with the Polish National Catholic Church and explore the possibility of dialogue.

… This was the result of the particularly painful history of our relationship and the circumstances of the origins of the Polish National Catholic Church among ethnic Polish and other Roman Catholics in the United States at the end of the 19th and the beginning of the 20th century. The disputes of that time, we now realize, were more concerned with matters of church governance than points of doctrine.

… Leaders of our two churches, including Cardinal Edward I. Cassidy (President of the Pontifical Council for Promoting Christian Unity) …pledged to work to overcome our divisions definitively.

Our dialogue has achieved much. For example, in a 1989 report summarizing the first five years of the dialogue’s progress, we affirmed our agreement on the seven sacraments of the Church, … “we have thus far discovered no doctrinal obstacle that would impede the further growth of our churches toward that unity which we believe is Christ’s will.”

In view of this progress, concrete steps have been taken. In response to an inquiry from the Archbishop of Baltimore, His Excellency William Keeler, then President of the National Conference of Catholic Bishops, His Eminence Edward Cardinal Cassidy, President of the Pontifical Council for Promoting Christian Unity, stated in 1993 that **members of the Polish National Catholic Church in the United States and Canada may receive the sacraments of Penance, Holy Communion and Anointing of the Sick from Roman Catholic priests **if they ask for them on their own, are properly disposed and not otherwise excluded from the sacraments…

…** Polish National Catholics may receive the aforementioned sacraments in the Roman Catholic Church.** … Canon 844 §2 of The Code of Canon Law also specifies conditions under which Roman Catholics may receive the sacraments in the Polish National Catholic Church.

… Furthermore, we recognize each other’s ecclesial character and sacraments, allow a certain amount of sacramental sharing, and maintain many of the same traditions. These facts bear witness to how much we have rediscovered as our common heritage. …

 

[PRmerger]

What I find puzzling is that documents [e.g. Declaration] on the Holy See website seem to be contrary to what posters like PRmerger profess.

Perhaps if you could articulate what exactly it is that I am professing that is contrary to the Declaration…we could then chat.

At any rate, I am under no obligation as a Catholic to submit to a declaration that is not given to me as de fide.

However, from what I have read, I give everything in the declaration a

It’s a declaration. Nothing more and nothing less.

 

[PRmerger]

The German Text of the Augsburg Confession 28, 5

The German text of A.C. 28, 5 refers not to “the distribution of the Body and Blood” of our Lord, but to “the distribution of the sacraments”—in the plural. (The German die Sakrament is plural.) According to the Lutheran Confessions, the sacraments include Holy Baptism, Holy Absolution,# and Holy Ordination, “if it is interpreted in relation to the ministry of the Word.”#
bookofconcord.org/augsburgconfession.php

So…3 sacraments in the Lutheran church?

Incidentally, I went to your reference and didn’t find the above quote at all.

 

[guanophore]

The first picture is not of Lutherans. They all used to be Lutherans (from the Church of Sweden and the Church of Norway), but are now part of the Nordic Catholic Church, which is the Northern European wing of the PNCC.

The people on the picture is, from left to right, Archdeacon Petrus Michael Catenacci, Father Matteus Maria Furemalm (the vicar of the parish in Stockholm and the vicar of the bishop in Sweden), bishop Roald Nikolai Flemestad, and Father Asle Ambrosius Dingstad (the vicar and Dean of the parish in Oslo). I know the last two personally, and am on a first name basis with them.

Amazing.

Is there a possibility that you would ever join them? I mean, ,as a “used to be Lutheran”?

Yes, that is from the Cathedral in Oslo, and it was built after the Reformation.

The latter. As was also the case, mostly, in England. Two examples are the Cathedral in Bergen and the Cathedral in Trondheim.

Beautiful! It seems there is more to draw me to visit the land of my grandfather than the cooking!

 

[guanophore]

Thanks for the info; here’s the link. touchstonemag.com/archives/article.php?id=15-06-054-i

Once again, female ordination divides Lutherans but my hunch is that all Lutherans will eventually accept this development.

You believe all Lutherans will eventually accept women’s ordination?

 

[EvangelCatholic]

You believe all Lutherans will eventually accept women’s ordination?

Yes, considering that the trend continues to include more Lutherans and Anglicans each year to the chagrin of many on CAF.

 

[guanophore]

What I find puzzling is that documents [e.g. Declaration] on the Holy See website seem to be contrary to what posters like PRmerger profess. And invariably there is an attempt to confute or minimize the Roman Curia by these Catholic posters. Odd behavior for those who speak of the infallibility of the Church so often.

No one is trying to confute or minimize that Roman Curia Evangel. The document is not part of the teaching of the Church, and the gift of infallibility is very specific. The Curia can make mistakes, but the HS will not make mistakes.

I thought of another element that might help you, Evangel. Official teachings/pronouncements are always promulgated in Latin, which is the official language of the Church. This is true of the papal and conciliar declarations (though not of the JDDJ). When a document is officially promulgated from the Magesterium for the instruction of the faithful, it will be published first in Latin.

Something else that might help you is the language contained in the ecumenical document with the PNCC, because it states clearly how the declarations of unity such as the JDDJ are not official teaching of the Church, but working documents toward that end.

… theological and canonical reflection concerning the nature of our division and the possibility of reaching full communion…rediscovering one another increasingly as brothers and sisters in the Lord… At this time we wish to review the progress that we have achieved over the past two decades, and reaffirm our intention to continue our efforts to achieve that unity for which Christ prayed.

… examine the relationship that exists … and explore the possibility of dialogue. This resulted in an exchange of correspondence between the leaders of our churches that would culminate in the first meeting of an official dialogue…

… Leaders of our two churches…including (President of the Pontifical Council for Promoting Christian Unity)… asked for forgiveness, and pledged to work to overcome our divisions definitively…

Our dialogue has achieved much. For example, in a 1989 report1 summarizing the first five years of the dialogue’s progress, we affirmed our agreement on the seven sacraments of the Church, in spite of some differences in practice that do not touch upon our basic common faith… In sum, the report was able to look back over five years of dialogue and state that “we have thus far discovered no doctrinal obstacle that would impede the further growth of our churches toward that unity which we believe is Christ’s will.”

At this point in our relationship, therefore, we the members of the Polish National Catholic-Roman Catholic dialogue wish to reaffirm our resolve to overcome what still divides us, and to state clearly that our goal is full communion between our churches.

As members of a commission authorized to engage in this ecumenical dialogue, our role is not to speak definitively for either of our churches. Nevertheless, we hope to propose new incremental steps that will make concrete the growing unity between us, and we wish our faithful to know of our conviction that a way can be found to overcome this regrettable division that took place among Catholics here in the United States. We know that the goal of unity is nothing less than the will of Christ for us. Therefore we ask the faithful of both our churches to join us in fervent prayer that, with a new outpouring of the Holy Spirit, the barriers between us will fall and we will one day soon find ourselves joined again in that perfect unity that befits the disciples of our Lord Jesus Christ.

The document also cites official instruction given from the Bishops instructing parishes/priests about the changes (such as mutual reception of the sacraments). This is how change is implemented, through the designated authority structure.

The language included above could be contained in any of the ecumenical dialogues and declarations. They are formal statements of progress, not official teaching or authorative instruction (yet).

These documents are posted on the Holy See website so that all of the faithful can track and pray for the unity that is being sought.

 

[EvangelCatholic]

Amazing.

Is there a possibility that you would ever join them? I mean, ,as a “used to be Lutheran”?

Beautiful! It seems there is more to draw me to visit the land of my grandfather than the cooking!

I found the Nordic Catholic Church website; they remind me of some Anglican groups who oppose female priests/ bishops.

Furthermore, the Nordic Catholic Church emphasises in its Statement of Faith that it adheres to its Scandinavian Lutheran heritage to the extent that it has embraced and transmitted the orthodox and catholic faith of the undivided church.
nordiccatholic.com/

 

[guanophore]

And the fact that you cite this declaration as magisterial in authority, when we do not is but one small example of the disunity we have as Catholics and Lutherans.

Evangel is confused. She thinks the use of the word “declaration” means the same as it does when referring to a papal or conciliar declaration.

I don’t think it is a matter of just ignorance, because if it were, then correction would be accepted. I think that there is a significant degree of wishful thinking at work here.

 

[guanophore]

Yes, considering that the trend continues to include more Lutherans and Anglicans each year to the chagrin of many on CAF.

Yes, of course. From our point of view, and that of those apparent minority Anglicans and Lutherans who still embrace the Sacred Tradition of the Apostles, this development is a serious departure from the Once for all Divine Deposit of Faith. Such falling away from the One Faith should create a sadness for all who desire to see the Body as One in the say Jesus intended.

 

[PRmerger]

Evangel is confused. She thinks the use of the word “declaration” means the same as it does when referring to a papal or conciliar declaration.

I don’t think it is a matter of just ignorance, because if it were, then correction would be accepted. I think that there is a significant degree of wishful thinking at work here.

No doubt.

Wishful thinking is certainly permitted here.

What is objectionable, however, is the degree of recusancy, as well as the confusion that this wishful thinking may be promoting in the multitude of lurkers.

All errors that are being proposed need to be corrected immediately by those who are not confused, not adamantine in their wishful thinking, not professing a mistaken and illusory unity which exists only in one’s mind.

But we can hope.

 

[GKC]

Yes, of course. From our point of view, and that of those apparent minority Anglicans and Lutherans who still embrace the Sacred Tradition of the Apostles, this development is a serious departure from the Once for all Divine Deposit of Faith. Such falling away from the One Faith should create a sadness for all who desire to see the Body as One in the say Jesus intended.

Yep.

GKC
Anglicanus-Catholicus

 

[steido01]

No doubt.

Wishful thinking is certainly permitted here.

What is objectionable, however, is the degree of recusancy, as well as the confusion that this wishful thinking may be promoting in the multitude of lurkers.

All errors that are being proposed need to be corrected immediately by those who are not confused, not adamantine in their wishful thinking, not professing a mistaken and illusory unity which exists only in one’s mind.

But we can hope.

:sad_yes: This is true of multiple threads, multiple posters and multiple topics.

We all hope for eventual unity, but the dialogues clearly leave …something… to be desired. Any document that requires incompatible clarifications from the dialogue partners isn’t coming to a meaningful conclusion. That’s why my synod didn’t sign. That’s not to minimize the tremendous progress that has been made, only tempering that progress with reality.

 

[PRmerger]

:sad_yes: This is true of multiple threads, multiple posters and multiple topics.

We all hope for eventual unity, but the dialogues clearly leave …something… to be desired. Any document that requires incompatible clarifications from the dialogue partners isn’t coming to a meaningful conclusion. That’s why my synod didn’t sign. That’s not to minimize the tremendous progress that has been made, only tempering that progress with reality.

A clarity in reading the declaration that is not obscured by one’s fanciful ideations is required.

Otherwise, one is simply proposing a chimera.

We can hope for unity. I pray for this unity.

But none exists between our churches today.

Or rather, it doesn’t exist in the way that some are proposing it exists.

 

[EvangelCatholic]

A clarity in reading the declaration that is not obscured by one’s fanciful ideations is required.

Otherwise, one is simply proposing a chimera.

We can hope for unity. I pray for this unity.

But none exists between our churches today.

Or rather, it doesn’t exist in the way that some are proposing it exists.

Considering the source I chose the Holy See over you any day, with all due respect.

Maybe when you address issues as non-threats to your own ego you will gain status of credibility.

 

[steido01]

Considering the source I chose the Holy See over you any day, with all due respect.

Maybe when you address issues as non-threats to your own ego you will gain status of credibility.

EC, you’ve heard it from Lutherans and Catholics alike: the dialogues are neither binding nor authoritative for either party. Furthermore, the JDDJ could not be accepted by either party without addendum - addendum that the partnered party could never accept. No one is threatened by this reality. We’re trying to explain the actual progress of these important talks to you without under or overstating it.

When folks from both ‘sides’ have explained that the situation is not as you understand it, won’t you pause to consider that possibility?

 

[PRmerger]

Considering the source I chose the Holy See over you any day, with all due respect.

You seem to think that something being posted on the Holy See’s website gives it some sort of authority.

I must disabuse you of this.

The authority comes not from where it is posted, but who it comes from, what it is declaring, and what it professes to be declaring.

For example, there is a document on the Holy See’s website that discusses Dante Allighieri.

Yep.

Right here: vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xv/encyclicals/documents/hf_ben-xv_enc_30041921_in-praeclara-summorum_en.html

It’s even an encyclical.

Can you tell us here of what authority you believe this encyclical binds the faithful to?

After all, it’s on the Holy See’s website, no?

Shall you encourage every Catholic who states, “I don’t read Dante, never have, and don’t ever intend to” to follow your peculiar paradigm and tell them that they are bound by this document–after all, “I choose the Holy See over you any day”?

 

[Peter_J]

Yes, considering that the trend continues to include more Lutherans and Anglicans each year to the chagrin of many on CAF.

Were you hoping for “See? I told you that Lutheranism <fill in something that’s not even slightly complimentary>” instead of chagrin?

 

[Per_Crucem]

You seem to think that something being posted on the Holy See’s website gives it some sort of authority.

I must disabuse you of this.

The authority comes not from where it is posted, but who it comes from, what it is declaring, and what it professes to be declaring.

For example, there is a document on the Holy See’s website that discusses Dante Allighieri.

Yep.

Right here: vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xv/encyclicals/documents/hf_ben-xv_enc_30041921_in-praeclara-summorum_en.html

It’s even an encyclical.

Can you tell us here of what authority you believe this encyclical binds the faithful to?

After all, it’s on the Holy See’s website, no?

Shall you encourage every Catholic who states, “I don’t read Dante, never have, and don’t ever intend to” to follow your peculiar paradigm and tell them that they are bound by this document–after all, “I choose the Holy See over you any day”?

The Holy See’s website also has the Westminster Confession of Faith on there. It must mean Catholicism is now actually Presbyterian.

 

[EvangelCatholic]

I found the Nordic Catholic Church website; they remind me of some Anglican groups who oppose female priests/ bishops.

Actually, I should have stated that the Nordic Catholic Church reminds me of some Lutheran groups who have left the Lutheran Church [ELCA] to form their own synods rather than remain in the Church and seek further understanding. I see there are such groups of Lutherans in Sweden and Norway who prefer to defy the established Church over issues such as female ordination