Why do lutherans call themselves evangelical catholics?

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EvangelCatholic said:
Actually, I should have stated that the Nordic Catholic Church reminds me of some Lutheran groups who have left the Lutheran Church [ELCA] to form their own synods rather than remain in the Church and seek further understanding. I see there are such groups of Lutherans in Sweden and Norway who prefer to defy the established Church over issues such as female ordination 😦
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On the issue of female ordination, one side or the other is going to have to defy someone. I see the point in defying the established Church, in Sweden or Norway (if that is what is required, as opposed to defying the undivided Church, and 2000 years of orthodox practice.

GKC
 
guanophore said:
You believe all Lutherans will eventually accept women’s ordination? :eek:
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Possible, in the sense that those of us who believe that the teaching of the historic Church Catholic is the orthodox understanding, supported by both scripture and tradition, would have to become something else were the confessional Lutheran synods to succumb to heterdoxy in the matter.

Jon
 
Per_Crucem said:
The Holy See’s website also has the Westminster Confession of Faith on there. It must mean Catholicism is now actually Presbyterian. 🙂
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Egg-zactly.

We can always say, “I’ll take the Holy See over you any day”, indicating that the Westminster Confession of Faith is now the authoritative norm for Catholics.

It’s a peculiar type of criterion to use–“If it’s on the Vatican website, that means it’s the authoritative norm for all you Catholic peeps!”–which opens up all sorts of weird ideas for folks to have to embrace.
 
PRmerger said:
So…3 sacraments in the Lutheran church?

Incidentally, I went to your reference and didn’t find the above quote at all. :confused:
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Hi PR,
Better this from the Apology of the Augsburg Confession:
If we call Sacraments rites which have the command of God, and to which the promise of grace has been added, it is easy to decide what are properly Sacraments. For rites instituted by men will not in this way be Sacraments properly so called. For it does not belong to human authority to promise grace. Therefore signs instituted without God’s command are not sure signs of grace, even though they perhaps instruct the rude [children or the uncultivated], or admonish as to something [as a painted cross]. 4] **Therefore Baptism, the Lord’s Supper, and Absolution, which is the Sacrament of Repentance, are truly Sacraments. For these rites have God’s command and the promise of grace, which is peculiar to the New Testament. For when we are baptized, when we eat the Lord’s body, when we are absolved, our hearts must be firmly assured that God truly forgives us 5] for Christ’s sake. And God, at the same time, by the Word and by the rite, moves hearts to believe and conceive faith, just as Paul says, Rom. 10:17: Faith cometh by hearing. But just as the Word enters the ear in order to strike our heart, so the rite itself strikes the eye, in order to move the heart. The effect of the Word and of the rite is the same, as it has been well said by Augustine that a Sacrament is a visible word, because the rite is received by the eyes, and is, as it were, a picture of the Word, signifying the same thing as the Word. Therefore the effect of both is the same. **
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bookofconcord.org/defense_12_sacraments.php#article13

Jon
 
PRmerger said:
You seem to think that something being posted on the Holy See’s website gives it some sort of authority.

I must disabuse you of this.

The authority comes not from where it is posted, but who it comes from, what it is declaring, and what it professes to be declaring.

For example, there is a document on the Holy See’s website that discusses Dante Allighieri.

Yep.

Right here: vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xv/encyclicals/documents/hf_ben-xv_enc_30041921_in-praeclara-summorum_en.html

It’s even an encyclical.

Can you tell us here of what authority you believe this encyclical binds the faithful to?

After all, it’s on the Holy See’s website, no?

Shall you encourage every Catholic who states, “I don’t read Dante, never have, and don’t ever intend to” to follow your peculiar paradigm and tell them that they are bound by this document–after all, “I choose the Holy See over you any day”?
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In an attempt to give EVangelCatholic his due, let me point out that many other posters have used the same basic logic as him, but with respect to stuff posted on catholic.com, or newadvent, or catholicity, or catholic.org, rather than on Vatican.va. So I guess one could say that, comparatively, EC’s approach isn’t so bad. 🙂
 
guanophore said:
Yes, of course. From our point of view, and that of those apparent minority Anglicans and Lutherans who still embrace the Sacred Tradition of the Apostles, this development is a serious departure from the Once for all Divine Deposit of Faith. Such falling away from the One Faith should create a sadness for all who desire to see the Body as One in the say Jesus intended.
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True, indeed.

From the perspective of the LCMS:
The long…
lcms.org/Document.fdoc?src=lcm&id=316

…and short of it.

lcms.org/Document.fdoc?src=lcm&id=1099

Jon
 
guanophore said:

Well, the PNCC is a peculiar situation.
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Agreed.

And I would add: after many years of studying Continuing Anglicans (and Anglicans generally) and the PNCC, I’ve come to think of the former as catholic and protestant, and the latter as just catholic (which could also describe the Roman Communion or the Orthodox Communion). I realize others may describe it differently, but that’s the conclusion I’ve come to from my experiences, and I think it helps in understanding the fundamental difference between PNCC and Continuing Anglicans.
 
Peter_J said:
In an attempt to give EVangelCatholic his due, let me point out that many other posters have used the same basic logic as him, but with respect to stuff posted on catholic.com, or newadvent, or catholicity, or catholic.org, rather than on Vatican.va. So I guess one could say that, comparatively, EC’s approach isn’t so bad. 🙂
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That some folks are ignorant of what Catholicism professes (and where to look for documentation of our beliefs, as well as how to understand these documents) ought not be license for others to utilize this same uninformed paradigm.
 
PRmerger said:
That some folks are ignorant of what Catholicism professes (and where to look for documentation of our beliefs, as well as how to understand these documents) ought not be license for others to utilize this same uninformed paradigm.
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Well I think that might go without saying, but I’m glad you said it anyhow. 🙂
 
EvangelCatholic said:
Actually, I should have stated that the Nordic Catholic Church reminds me of some Lutheran groups who have left the Lutheran Church [ELCA] to form their own synods rather than remain in the Church and seek further understanding. I see there are such groups of Lutherans in Sweden and Norway who prefer to defy the established Church over issues such as female ordination 😦
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I just want to make sure I’m not misunderstanding you. Are you saying that the ELCA is “The Lutheran Church?” If it is, count me in protest.
 
My advice to anyone seeking rapport and unification with the Catholic Church is to keep one’s eyes solely on the Pope and/or Roman Curia/ Holy See. Considering that polemics is the sport on CAF; Christians beware that some on this thread may actually discourage you from posting and certainly will not invite you to be a Catholic. Pious language for Church unity is misleading when weighing their other statements.

Wear blinders so that your focus is on the holy Father and avoid those motived by triumphalism since even saintly Francis has only so much patience. That is why Declarations, either papal or conciliar are important to actually read rather than debate that some declarations actually aren’t declarations; confusing ad lib is most definitely not what the Holy See is; universally lauded as “The Voice” of Christianity. w2.vatican.va/content/vatican/en.html

I am an Evangelical Catholic who prays for Francis at Mass though mostly in silence. But my parish did name him in the Prayers of the Church on the Sunday after his election.
 
EvangelCatholic said:
My advice to anyone seeking rapport and unification with the Catholic Church is to keep one’s eyes solely on the Pope and/or Roman Curia/ Holy See.
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Now, this, this advice is something that may be worthwhile for the lurkers to consider, although with some reservations.

Yes, for those seeking unification with the CC, keep your eyes on the Holy Father, but keep your eyes fixed on Christ behind him…

and conform your views to what Christ has revealed.

Don’t try to create a Catholic Church that is made in your image and likeness.
Wear blinders so that your focus is on the holy Father and avoid those motived by triumphalism since even saintly Francis has only so much patience.
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But this…this is, frankly, a very peculiar suggestion.

I suggest to the lurkers/seekers to **not **wear blinders when seeking Truth.

And triumphalism is something no Catholic ought to be espousing.

That’s pretty obvious.
 
EvangelCatholic said:
Actually, I should have stated that the Nordic Catholic Church reminds me of some Lutheran groups who have left the Lutheran Church [ELCA] to form their own synods rather than remain in the Church and seek further understanding. I see there are such groups of Lutherans in Sweden and Norway who prefer to defy the established Church over issues such as female ordination 😦
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How could they have left the ELCA, when the ELCA came into existence in 1988? Even if you take it that the groups that made up the ELCA were the ones in which the confessional churches left, it still doesn’t make sense. The group that would become the ELCA , the AELC (amongst others) formerly left the LCMS. If anything it was these groups that left the LCMS, not the other way around. Why did not they chose to stay in the Church and see further understanding?

Even so, the Catholic Church can never accept female ordination. Why won’t the ELCA get back in line with the traditional Catholic understanding of who can be ordained?
 
EvangelCatholic said:
Code: 
Christians beware that some on this thread may actually discourage you from posting and certainly will not invite you to be a Catholic.  Pious language for Church unity is misleading when weighing their other statements.
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It sounds like your feelings are hurt. Just because we don’t agree with does not mean we don’t want you to be a Catholic. 😃

Statements toward unity are important. It is also important that we not make them say something they don’t. There is much work to be done on unity. I hope it does not take another 500 years, but it did not get this way overnight.
EvangelCatholic said:
Code: 
  That is why Declarations, either papal or conciliar are important to actually read
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👍
EvangelCatholic said:
rather than debate that some declarations actually aren’t declarations; confusing ad lib is most definitely
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Evangel, no one is saying the JDDJ is not a declaration. It is an important step toward clarifying areas of agreement, and disagreement. It is not a papal or conciliar declaration, and as such, does not have Magesterial teaching authority that is binding on the faithful.

There are many documents posted on the Vatican site that are not part of the Teaching of the Church.
 
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