Why do lutherans call themselves evangelical catholics?

[7_Sorrows]

Thanks for the answer Sorrows.

I didn’t attend the episcopal church from 18-40 something.
My memory might be faulty. I attended 2 different episcopal churches when I returned briefly. I don’t know if they have confession as a sacrament since it is not required like in the Catholic church.
I know you can make an appt. with an episcopal priest but I don’t know if they can absolve you of your sins. Of course
Holy Communion was a sacrament so I am not sure if it could be 6 or 7. Definitely more than 2 or 3.

 

[KjetilK]

Sad for you, Jon or the many Christians receiving the Holy Word and Sacraments at the hands of these faithful women priests?

They aren’t receiving the sacraments from them, as they have no authority to administer them.

 

[Peter_J]

I’m a long time advocate of using Catholic (with a capital C and without a qualifier) on this forum to mean only those of us who are in communion with Rome … but the thing that surprises me is that the attitude of most Protestant posters is not so much “OK, we may not like it but well do it when we’re on CAF” but rather “Well that’s how we would use ‘Catholic’ anyhow.”

So I guess the question is, does accommodating at some point become too accommodating? (Like when a protestant says “Are you Catholic or Christian?” and a Catholic answers “Catholic” without the slightest complaint.)

Bump.

 

[Annie39]

They aren’t receiving the sacraments from them, as they have no authority to administer them.

Those are the same reasons that Protestants including Lutherans do not receive the sacraments (baptism excepted)

 

[EvangelCatholic]

They aren’t receiving the sacraments from them, as they have no authority to administer them.

Father, does your bishop agree with you?

 

[KjetilK]

Father, does your bishop agree with you?

My bishop is male, and he allwow my view.

 

[KjetilK]

Those are the same reasons that Protestants including Lutherans do not receive the sacraments (baptism excepted)

Except, of course, that we have apostolic succession in the Church of Norway, and that the Roman Catholic Church have never said otherwise.

 

[steido01]

As a fellow Lutheran, I think what you write only represents 10% of worldwide Lutherans.

I’m curious to know what I said that you disagree with; there may be more agreement here than you think. I referenced only Confessio Augustana and not Smalcald, and intentionally wrote to include both Lutherans who maintain traditional Apostolic Succession and those who practice Presbyter Ordination (which the ELCA does recognize as valid Your pastors can even choose not to be ordained by a bishop). My point is that the ELCA has never defined its apostolicity based solely on the concept of who-tagged-whom, else it would have to admit that it didn’t have valid orders until Provoo or CCM! :whacky:

Also, I’d also like to know what the percentage you stated is in reference to, and its source?

For example, most Lutheran priests are ordained by a bishop in apostolic succession.

Safe to say that nearly all Lutheran pastors are ordained by a bishop (also called district presidents), acting as representatives of the church-in-general (which holds the power to call men to ministry). In any case, virtually all non-Scandinavian Lutherans, a few Scandinavian Lutherans, a goodly amount of Anglicans and even a small portion of those in communion with Rome find that, in certain obscure cases, Presbyter Ordination has been warranted. It was, after all, the practice of the early church.

Also and regrettably so-called “confessional Lutherans” [WELC and LCMS] seem to be more likely to adopt Protestant-type worship *. I don’t think there is any doubt that European Lutherans [Church of Finland/ Sweden/ Norway etc.] are the most ‘catholic’ in worship and governance. This is where the Missouri Synod has a bit of catching up to do, in my opinion.*I’m not sure what worship style has to do with the theology behind calling and ordaining ministers, but I agree that Missouri could do with a nice injection of “high church” back into the ol’ Gottesdienst. But should we judge catholicity based on appearances, or on teaching?

 

[EvangelCatholic]

My bishop is male, and he allwow my view.

Really? My understanding is that the Church of Norway has a female archbishop. Would your bishop be able to publicly state what you so publicly state and not be disciplined? The ELCA and Church of Norway are in full communion [the Church of Norway is not in communion with the Lutheran Church Missouri Synod]. Are you suggesting that female priests in your church and my church can not preach the Word and administer the Sacraments? Does that mean your archbishop, when she consecrates the holy Elements that Christ is not Present? Have you taken communion from your archbishop?

 

[Annie39]

Except, of course, that we have apostolic succession in the Church of Norway, and that the Roman Catholic Church have never said otherwise.

The Church has said that Lutherans do not have Apostolic succession. is there a document that I can read from the Catholic Church which states an exception of Norway?

 

[7_Sorrows]

The Church has said that Lutherans do not have Apostolic succession. is there a document that I can read from the Catholic Church which states an exception of Norway?

I would like to know the same thing.

 

[Annie39]

I would like to know the same thing.

His reply should be very interesting. They have female “priests” anglicanjournal.com/articles/first-woman-pastor-in-norway-church-3085

Annie

 

[7_Sorrows]

What is sad is there are so many groups and divisions in lutheranism.
Wouldn’t they at least want to be one body of lutherans rather than I belong to missouri synod or I belong to this griup or that group.
I can’t remember all the initials of each group or what they stand for.
The anglicans have about the same problem.
They keep fragmenting. Everyone wants to be their own authority so a new group pops up. I guess that is what they call the protestant dilemma.
In the episcopal church and anglican it just got too confusing.
I wanted one church with one authority - the Catholic church.

 

[steido01]

The Church has said that Lutherans do not have Apostolic succession. is there a document that I can read from the Catholic Church which states an exception of Norway?

Annie, Father K isn’t saying that Rome has ruled Norway to have valid and licit orders; he’s simply saying that Rome hasn’t ruled against Lutheran orders, specifically.

Pope Leo XIII ruled rather definitively that Anglicans do not, generally, have valid or licit orders (though there are two maybe-kind-of-sort-of-but-not-really cases in recent times). While we can make a fairly certain guess at what Rome’s likely opinion is regarding Lutheran orders, no such ruling has come from the Vatican. That’s all.

I’m not aware of any Apostolicae Curae-type document aimed at Lutherans.

 

[Annie39]

Stride

You write: Safe to say that nearly all Lutheran pastors are ordained by a bishop (also called district presidents), acting as representatives of the church-in-general (which holds the power to call men to ministry). In any case, virtually all non-Scandinavian Lutherans, a few Scandinavian Lutherans, a goodly amount of Anglicans and even a small portion of those in communion with Rome find that, in certain obscure cases, Presbyter Ordination has been warranted. It was, after all, the practice of the early church.

have you documentation of this?

 

[Annie39]

Annie, Father K isn’t saying that Rome has ruled Norway to have valid and licit orders; he’s simply saying that Rome hasn’t ruled against Lutheran orders, specifically.

Pope Leo XIII ruled rather definitively that Anglicans do not, generally, have valid or licit orders (though there are two maybe-kind-of-sort-of-but-not-really cases in recent times). While we can make a fairly certain guess at what Rome’s likely opinion is regarding Lutheran orders, no such ruling has come from the Vatican. That’s all.

I’m not aware of any Apostolicae Curae-type document aimed at Lutherans.

We’ll I can tell you that no one living next door to me is a member of my family. If the lady gives birth he won’t be either.

 

[steido01]

Stride

You write: Safe to say that nearly all Lutheran pastors are ordained by a bishop (also called district presidents), acting as representatives of the church-in-general (which holds the power to call men to ministry). In any case, virtually all non-Scandinavian Lutherans, a few Scandinavian Lutherans, a goodly amount of Anglicans and even a small portion of those in communion with Rome find that, in certain obscure cases, Presbyter Ordination has been warranted. It was, after all, the practice of the early church.

have you documentation of this?

That nearly all Lutheran pastors are ordained by bishops/presidents? That Lutherans believe bishops/presidents and pastors act as ordained representatives of the church? That many Christians, regardless of denomination, support Presbyter Ordination in certain cases? Or that Presbyter Ordination took place in the early church?

Yes.

 

[GKC]

Annie, Father K isn’t saying that Rome has ruled Norway to have valid and licit orders; he’s simply saying that Rome hasn’t ruled against Lutheran orders, specifically.

Pope Leo XIII ruled rather definitively that Anglicans do not, generally, have valid or licit orders (though there are two maybe-kind-of-sort-of-but-not-really cases in recent times). While we can make a fairly certain guess at what Rome’s likely opinion is regarding Lutheran orders, no such ruling has come from the Vatican. That’s all.

I’m not aware of any Apostolicae Curae-type document aimed at Lutherans.

The two sub conditione ordinations indicate, technically, uncertainty as to whether those two Anglican individuals might have received valid ordinations previously, as Anglicans, all necessary conditions for the valid confecting of the sacrament possibly being present. Or not.

GKC

 

[Annie39]

That nearly all Lutheran pastors are ordained by bishops/presidents? That Lutherans believe bishops/presidents and pastors act as ordained representatives of the church? That many Christians, regardless of denomination, support Presbyter Ordination in certain cases? Or that Presbyter Ordination took place in the early church?

Yes.

Would you care to share?

 

[steido01]

The two sub conditione ordinations indicate, technically, uncertainty as to whether those two Anglican individuals might have received valid ordinations previously, as Anglicans, all necessary conditions for the valid confecting of the sacrament possibly being present. Or not.

GKC

I couldn’t decide which was the more effective language to describe those ordinations: the Latin or the comically-hyphenated.

Just to be safe, I wasn’t implying that Anglicans ought to worry what Rome or anyone else thinks of their orders. Unless they’re the sort of Anglican who should.