Absolutely. OTOH, “protestant” is even worse. “Reformed church” is a much better word. The only problem with it is that it usually doesn’t refer to the whole group of reformed churches, but just the Zwingli/Calvin version. So what on earth should they/we (not knowing which leg to stand on) be called…
Neither would I. We have enough hyphenated real Catholics these days.
No problem, but if you’re checking out a Lutheran church because you are displeased by the behavior of your local Catholics, you’ll be at least equally disappointed in the Lutherans. Lutheran churches are populated entirely with sinners. If you have problems with your local diocese, you should seek guidance from your own parish priest or bishop. We Lutherans don’t like poaching other catechized Christians.Thank you for the link. What is the staunchest branch? Missouri synod? I am going to see if some of those Lutherans are in my area. They actually sound more Catholic than my local diocese.
It has nothing to do with my brothers and sisters in the pews. I am well aware of original sin.
Or perhaps makes them feel a closer connection to being Catholic?
Is that how you’d feel about a Christian who called himself a “Fullfilled Covenant Jew?”
Humans are funny that way. We have a way of adopting labels originally derogative and making friends with them. As I understand it, the word “cop” for policeman arose in the Boston area where the police force was heavily populated by Irish catholics. WASP society sneeringly called the police “cops.” (Catholic On Patrol) Apparently the fellas grew to like it. Go figure…
If a Messianic Jew, Jew for Jesus, Hebrew Catholic, Nazarene Jew, or cultural Jew considers themselves Jewish, I have no problems with that. It’s not for me to judge their religious identity or faith, and I wouldn’t want them to judge mine.Is that how you’d feel about a Christian who called himself a “Fullfilled Covenant Jew?”
You’re putting words in other people’s mouths. I doubt the Lutherans here would explain themselves in these terms.
Not to digress too much, but the origin of “cop,” originally thought to derive from “Constable on Patrol” (I had never heard of “Catholic on Patrol”: thank you!), is now believed to stem from the Latin “capere,” which means to catch. Another idea is that their badges were made out of copper. There are probably other hypotheses as well.
Sure thing! And thank you for asking so charitably. I don’t expect you to share our views, but hopefully I can help explain why we hold them. I’ll reference Lutheran documents so you know I’m not imposing my own views.
We are one with other Christians in a visible means through the Preaching of the Word and the Administration of the Sacraments - namely, that we are all made part of the one, true church through Baptism. (Article VII, Confessio Augustana)
All Lutherans practice ordination of their pastors with the laying on of hands by the surrounding ordained pastors, and in this way, preserve Apostolic teaching. For Lutherans, it’s more than just “who tagged whom;” it’s also about maintaining the right teaching. No Lutheran has ever woken up and said, “Gee, I’m going to go be a pastor.” It doesn’t work that way. While Roman Catholics may view our ordinations to be invalid due to intent (and/or form), we know that our pastors are validly ordained. And that’s good enough for us. (Articles XIV and XXVIII, Confessio Augustana)
Most here would be more polite, I grant you that. Luther himself, ahem, tended to be blunt though. I don’t think it’s inappropriate to summarize the legacy of his thought in sentiments he’d recognize.
Validly ordained…according to Lutherans only, and does not in accordance with the Traditons of both east and west.
You’re wrong to conflate Luther and Lutherans. Luther may have been the catalyst in the German and Scandinavian reformations, but he isn’t the arbiter of ‘Lutheran’ doctrine; as we’re consistently told by the Lutherans on these boards, the Scriptures are the supreme source of Lutheran doctrine, and they’re authoritatively expounded in the Lutheran Confessions, chief among which is the Confessio Augustana.
Maybe they should start their own branch of lutheranism called evangelical catholilc lutheran or ECL.
Straight from our confessions:
By confessing the Nicene Creed, we recognize and include ourselves via administration of the sacraments (Baptism, Absolution, Eucharist) and preaching the word, in the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church. In this way, we treasure our catholicity. We also view ourselves as evangelical, recognizing the distinction between law and Gospel.
Judaism is really hard to use for analogy. Catholics believe they are the church that Jesus founded and that he gave the keys to Peter - the rock upon which to build his church.
So how many sacraments do lutherans have?