Why do lutherans call themselves evangelical catholics?

[PRmerger]

I don’t understand this.
Martin Luther was a Catholic. His followers
seperated themselves from the RC but they ALSO
were Catholics.
Lutheranism is rooted in Catholicism. It can’t be
disputed. The differences are severe- more severe
than EO- but we don’t have cows every time an EO
calls himself a Catholic do we?
If they want to call themselves Catholic so what?
That’s what they sprung from and it’s the very least
of our problems.

No one is positing that this is a huge problem.

We are simply discussing this animal: who gets to call themselves Catholic?

I believe it is our term, and that calling some other denomination which is clearly NOT Catholic by our name is misleading.

As apologist Dave Armstrong says (paraphrasing): it’s simply ridiculous to claim that there are Roman Catholics, and then a subgroup of Catholics who are not subject to the Roman Pontiff.

 

[EvangelCatholic]

This is not meant to rile up Catholics but I remember quite vividly as a young boy in catechism the pastor teaching us that Lutherans are the “real” Catholics and drawing a long line across the chalk board representing the entire length of the holy Church from Old Testament to Resurrection to Peter and Rome right up until the Reformation. The lines off the Holy Church showed Roman Catholic/ Orthodox/ Anglican veering off ever so much while Protestants [Baptists, Methodist/ Reformed] veered off quite a ways from the steady straight line of the Church; of-course, Lutherans being the Church :dancing:

This is how Lutherans were taught. It didn’t take long to realize that we were a lot more like Catholics and remember the parish school marching around the block in procession of crucifix, banners, candles only to run into the local Catholic parish doing the same thing.

 

[marywarfield]

No one is positing that this is a huge problem.

We are simply discussing this animal: who gets to call themselves Catholic?

I believe it is our term, and that calling some other denomination which is clearly NOT Catholic by our name is misleading.

As apologist Dave Armstrong says (paraphrasing): it’s simply ridiculous to claim that there are Roman Catholics, and then a subgroup of Catholics who are not subject to the Roman Pontiff.

Well we do it all the time. Are the Orthodox not Catholic?
Do they reject Papal Supremacy?
Are they subject to the Roman Pontiff?

Therefore it would appear that Dave Armstrong is
incorrect.

 

[SteveVH]

Well we do it all the time. Are the Orthodox not Catholic?
Do they reject Papal Supremacy?
Are they subject to the Roman Pontiff?

Therefore it would appear that Dave Armstrong is
incorrect.

If one says “I belong to the Catholic Church” I think there are few to none that would not know what that meant. I have never heard the follow up question “Are you then Orthodox or Anglican or Lutheran…?” We can parse the definition in order for everyone to jump on the bandwagon but in reality I think everyone understands “Catholic” to mean one that is subject to the Roman Pontiff.

 

[marywarfield]

If one says “I belong to the Catholic Church” I think there are few to none that would not know what that meant. I have never heard the follow up question “Are you then Orthodox or Anglican or Lutheran…?” We can parse the definition in order for everyone to jump on the bandwagon but in reality I think everyone understands “Catholic” to mean one that is subject to the Roman Pontiff.

Not so. If one asked the Roman Pontiff whether
the EO were Catholic he would say yes. They do not feel
subject to the Roman Pontiff. Even so the RC teaches
that the EO are most definitely and absolutely Catholic.
So- it would appear that there is more to the story
than accepting the Roman Pontiff unless
you want to dispute with Pope Francis the catholicity
of the EO?

 

[PRmerger]

Well we do it all the time. Are the Orthodox not Catholic?

Ummm…is this a trick question?

Are you operating under some misapprehension that the Orthodox *are *Catholic?

 

[PRmerger]

So- it would appear that there is more to the story
than accepting the Roman Pontiff unless
you want to dispute with Pope Francis the catholicity
of the EO?

Can you offer some sort of documentation that the Orthodox are Catholic, as professed by Pope Francis?

 

[marywarfield]

Ummm…is this a trick question?

Are you operating under some misapprehension that the Orthodox *are *Catholic?

Are you believing the RC is incorrect? It has always
stuck in my craw that we were to consider EO Catholic yet
that is exactly what the RC teaches I believe. Can you
point me in the direction of my error?
I could be wrong. But what I was taught was :
Catholic- the big 3- eastern, western, orthodox.
The little 1- Lutheran.

Which is why I assumed the Church put so much effort
into dialogue with Orthodox and Lutherans and there
is no equal effort with Baptists, JWs, Mormons etc.

 

[PRmerger]

Are you believing the RC is incorrect? It has always
stuck in my craw that we were to consider EO Catholic yet
that is exactly what the RC teaches I believe. Can you
point me in the direction of my error?

Your error lies in saying that the EO are Catholic.

If it is your assertion that the EO are Catholic, and you *have *stated that Pope Francis has declared this to be so, please offer some evidence for this.

Thanks.

 

[marywarfield]

Can you offer some sort of documentation that the Orthodox are Catholic, as professed by Pope Francis?

No. What I will say is again I could be wrong.
I repeat what I just said:
We were taught the big 3 Catholic Churches
were Eastern, Western, and Orthodox.
The little 1 was Lutheran.
You say this is false.
Okay. So your claim is that the only Catholic Church is
the Roman Church. Is this your view?

 

[marywarfield]

Your error lies in saying that the EO are Catholic.

If it is your assertion that the EO are Catholic, and you *have *stated that Pope Francis has declared this to be so, please offer some evidence for this.

Thanks.

No I won’t. You disagree. Please show me my error.
You have not shown me anything that says Orthodox
Catholics are not Catholics.

You have given me an opinion that mist Catholics says Orthodox
Catholics are not Catholics. Is there a Gallup poll
for this you can reference?

And if the Lutherans and Orthodox are NOT part of
our Catholic but seperated brethren, can you explain
why we are working on JDDJs with them? Perhaps
our time might be better spent playing with the
Baptists who refute any connection to any of us.
Lol.

You can’t have it both ways. You can’t claim these
are our seperated BRETHREN but they are not family.
Makes no sense does it?
And I would suggest that all the millions of Catholics calling
themselves Catholics but reject Rome think your
view makes no sense either. Especially when we then
have the audacity to condescend to calling
them our seperated “BRETHREN”.
They either are or they are not, no?

 

[spina1953]

EO refers to Eastern Orthodox and are not in union, and Eastern Catholic’s are the one’s in union with Rome and the OO who are Orential Orthodox are not. That is how I understand it.

 

[PRmerger]

No. What I will say is again I could be wrong.

Yes. You are indeed wrong.

I repeat what I just said:
We were taught the big 3 Catholic Churches
were Eastern, Western, and Orthodox.

You will find no where in Catholic teaching that states that the Orthodox are part of the Catholic Church.

In fact, our Catechism has a statement addressing this separation.

"The Church knows that she is joined in many ways to the baptized who are honored by the name of Christian, but do not profess the Catholic faith in its entirety or have not preserved unity or communion under the successor of Peter."322 Those "who believe in Christ and have been properly baptized are put in a certain, although imperfect, communion with the Catholic Church."323 With the Orthodox Churches, this communion is so profound "that it lacks little to attain the fullness that would permit a common celebration of the Lord’s Eucharist."324

If we were one Church then the above section in the Catechism would be inutile, no?

So your claim is that the only Catholic Church is
the Roman Church. Is this your view?

No.

The CC is not Roman. The CC consists of a multitude of churches and rites, of which the Roman, AKA Latin, rite is the most populous.

All are subject to the Roman Pontiff.

There is NO SUCH THING as a Catholic who is permitted to say, “I am Catholic but I am not subject to the visible head of the Church, the vicar of Christ, the Pope.”

 

[marywarfield]

Your error lies in saying that the EO are Catholic.

If it is your assertion that the EO are Catholic, and you *have *stated that Pope Francis has declared this to be so, please offer some evidence for this.

Thanks.

EO refers to Eastern Orthodox and are not in union, and Eastern Catholic’s are the one’s in union with Rome and the OO who are Orential Orthodox are not. That is how I understand it.

Ok so let me ask this- the OCA- what are they and why is
no one starting threads asking them how dare they
call themselves Catholic? Because that IS their name.

See the whole question and presumption is based on falsehood.

Are these Churches Catholic as in having their roots,
their apostolicity, sacraments etc rooted in Catholicism
but then stopped speaking to us due to theological differences,
Not family. Family of what?
The RC calls them “our seperated brethren”. Therefore
they must bear some relationship to us. What is it
if not Catholicism?

 

[PRmerger]

And I would suggest that all the millions of Catholics calling themselves Catholics but reject Rome think your
view makes no sense either.

This is the most absurd thing I have read today.

Millions of Catholics do what pleases them, but it is not with the permission of the Church, the Body of Christ, that they can "reject Rome.’

If they do so, and receive the Eucharist, they are guilty of a mortal sin.

No one is permitted to “reject Rome” and be a Catholic, receiving Communion.

Especially when we then
have the audacity to condescend to calling
them our seperated “BRETHREN”.
They either are or they are not, no?

The Catholic teaching (which you ought to know) is that they are separated from us.

You need to note the SEPARATED part. I am heartened to see you acknowledge this

That they are our brethren, no one ought to dispute.

 

[marywarfield]

Yes. You are indeed wrong.

You will find no where in Catholic teaching that states that the Orthodox are part of the Catholic Church.

In fact, our Catechism has a statement addressing this separation.

If we were one Church then the above section in the Catechism would be inutile, no?

No.

The CC is not Roman. The CC consists of a multitude of churches and rites, of which the Roman, AKA Latin, rite is the most populous.

All are subject to the Roman Pontiff.

There is NO SUCH THING as a Catholic who is permitted to say, “I am Catholic but I am not subject to the visible head of the Church, the vicar of Christ, the Pope.”

I stand corrected. Thank you.
However I still believe the thread, the question,
are based in falsehood.
It’s like saying a member of the Warfield family
seperated us does not come to the family reunion
therefore he is no longer a Warfield. Makes no sense.

So there is more here than the name Catholic.

 

[PRmerger]

I stand corrected. Thank you.

Indeed.

I am heartened to see you acknowledge this. Thank you.

However I still believe the thread, the question,
are based in falsehood.
It’s like saying a member of the Warfield family
seperated us does not come to the family reunion
therefore he is no longer a Warfield. Makes no sense.

So there is more here than the name Catholic.

Again, it is ridiculous to claim the name Catholic but claim, “I don’t have to be subject to the Roman Pontiff.”

If you want to be a Catholic, you are welcome to join us at the Wedding Feast of the Lamb, but…be a Catholic, then.

Don’t try to create a religion that fits your sensibilities and call yourself Catholic.

 

[PRmerger]

The RC calls them “our seperated brethren”. Therefore
they must bear some relationship to us. What is it
if not Catholicism?

It is a Christian family, joined by baptism.

But they are imperfectly joined to the Body of Christ, the Catholic Church.

 

[marywarfield]

This is the most absurd thing I have read today.

Millions of Catholics do what pleases them, but it is not with the permission of the Church, the Body of Christ, that they can "reject Rome.’

If they do so, and receive the Eucharist, they are guilty of a mortal sin.

No one is permitted to “reject Rome” and be a Catholic, receiving Communion.

The Catholic teaching (which you ought to know) is that they are separated from us.

You need to note the SEPARATED part. I am heartened to see you acknowledge this

That they are our brethren, no one ought to dispute.

And I’m heartened to see you view them as brethren.
Which of course again brings up the topic? Calling
themselves Catholic? Only Catholics object to it
and quite frankly I think it is the least of our
problems and we should probably be complimented rather
than insulted.

Personally- my first reaction to those who dispute the
Pope is to slice their ears off with a sword.
My more rational side says these are OUR people-
let’s not look for irrelevant issues to argue over.

Rather than calling them on the carpet for daring to
use our family name it makes more sense to try
and get them to visit the the manse of the Pater
Familis. Lol

 

[spina1953]

There are I believe some 23 rite within the CC of which the Latin is just one. All 23 rites are in union with the CC in Rome. What I have not understood is what is a evangelical catholic. I know that there are evangelicals denominational churches and that evangelical is a modern thing in the USA, and do not know if that is the case in the rest of the world. One can look up what the rites that are within the CC to find all that are in union and also find the ones that are not which are Orthodox etc.