Why do lutherans call themselves evangelical catholics?

[Annie39]

separated brethren yes, heretics, no. In order to be a heretic, one must first have been taught and embraced the faith. Most of our separated brethren were taught post-reformation theology. They were raised in faith traditions that were long departed from the One Faith, so that they could not qualify to be called heretics. They do embrace heresies, but don’t realize it.

818 “However, one cannot charge with the sin of the separation those who at present are born into these communities [that resulted from such separation] and in them are brought up in the faith of Christ, and the Catholic Church accepts them with respect and affection as brothers.… All who have been justified by faith in Baptism are incorporated into Christ; they therefore have a right to be called Christians, and with good reason are accepted as brothers in the Lord by the children of the Catholic Church.” (1271)

Catholic Church. (2000). Catechism of the Catholic Church (2nd Ed., p. 216). Washington, DC: United States Catholic Conference.

quan you quote the CCC: 818 “However, one cannot charge with the sin of the separation those who at present are born into these communities [that resulted from such separation] and in them are brought up in the faith of Christ, and the Catholic Church accepts them with respect and affection as brothers.… All who have been justified by faith in Baptism are incorporated into Christ; they therefore have a right to be called Christians, and with good reason are accepted as brothers in the Lord by the children of the Catholic Church.” (1271)

that passage is interesting to me. I was raised Catholic. I left the Church for approximately ten years. I was considered to have excommunicated myself at the time. I returned to the Church after having informed my conscience which everyone is obliged to do. (1783 Conscience must be informed and moral judgment enlightened. A well-formed conscience is upright and truthful. It formulates its judgments according to reason, in conformity with the true good willed by the wisdom of the Creator. The education of conscience is indispensable for human beings who are subjected to negative influences and tempted by sin to prefer their own judgment and to reject authoritative teachings.) CCC

If a person has been told the truth but rejects it, like those in Thessalonica do they qualify to be included in CCC 818?

Annie

 

[7_Sorrows]

Hi marywarfield. I applaud you for asking th tough questions, but I’d like to add another one: Is there any particular reason for Lutherans to call themselves Catholic?

That is the big question! To me it seems misleading to call themselves
evangelical catholics when they are in fact lutherans.

 

[7_Sorrows]

This is a good thread, 7 Sorrows. But comments by others on this thread should not be a determining factor in your leaving the Church that you returned to. I have no idea what your Hebrew teacher meant by her remark, but if you have any doubts about the Church and its teachings, perhaps you should confide in a priest and listen to his advice.

:tiphat:

 

[7_Sorrows]

Of course it was not a mistake to return. Let nothing and no one convince you otherwise. Let no online conversation deter you. If something I said puts doubt in you, I insist that you put me on ignore.

Jon

Maybe I tend to overthnk things and sometimes I wonder if life wouldn’t be simpler when it is not complicated by religion.
Just live. There is nothing you said that put doubts in my mind.

 

[guanophore]

If a person has been told the truth but rejects it, like those in Thessalonica do they qualify to be included in CCC 818?

Annie

This particular section is addressing our separated brethren who have been raised in non-Catholic ecclesial communities and do not realize that they have been fed on a diet of heresies or departures from the Apostolic faith.

Your experience is not unusual. Many Catholics disobey the teachings of the Church but have never really studied them, or informed their conscience. Disobedience that emanates from ignorance is not as serious as disobedience when one knows and understands.

 

[guanophore]

That is the big question! To me it seems misleading to call themselves
evangelical catholics when they are in fact lutherans.

Lutherans do not follow Luther, but the Augsburg confession and other summations of their faith that they consider to be a continuation of the Catholic faith. Neither Luther, or those inspired by his work were attempting to separate from the One Church.

 

[7_Sorrows]

This is certainly true 7 Sorrows, and I think when this happens it is a strong call for us to look deep within, to find and follow the image of God inside that is free of confusion and cannot be marred. Sometimes it is difficult, in our fallen state, to seek and find the Kingdom that is within us, but some cannot progress spiritually without this deep inner journey.

Not all souls are called to the Dark Night, but those who are cannot find peace without it.

 

[Annie39]

This particular section is addressing our separated brethren who have been raised in non-Catholic ecclesial communities and do not realize that they have been fed on a diet of heresies or departures from the Apostolic faith.

Your experience is not unusual. Many Catholics disobey the teachings of the Church but have never really studied them, or informed their conscience. Disobedience that emanates from ignorance is not as serious as disobedience when one knows and understands.

But in 1783 of the CCC it says that we must have a well formed conscience. If a person has learned the truth and rejects it does he qualify under the passage that you posted? It seems not to me.

Annie

 

[Annie39]

Lutherans do not follow Luther, but the Augsburg confession and other summations of their faith that they consider to be a continuation of the Catholic faith. Neither Luther, or those inspired by his work were attempting to separate from the One Church.

But they did.

 

[7_Sorrows]

Lutherans do not follow Luther, but the Augsburg confession and other summations of their faith that they consider to be a continuation of the Catholic faith. Neither Luther, or those inspired by his work were attempting to separate from the One Church.

And King Henry VIII did not want to be excommunicated either and he created his own church which in the beginning was probably very Catholic. The point is in the end they both separated from the Catholic Church and are protestant and having female priests and bishops and performing same sex marriages move further from the Catholic church.
If they don’t follow Luther-why do they continue to be called lutherans. Why don’t they change their name?

 

[steido01]

If they don’t follow Luther-why do they continue to be called lutherans. Why don’t they change their name?

Danged if we do, danged if we don’t.

 

[KjetilK]

But they did.

 

[KjetilK]

If they don’t follow Luther-why do they continue to be called lutherans. Why don’t they change their name?

My Church is simply called the Church of Norway.

 

[MaryT777]

But they did.

Exactly.

 

[PRmerger]

Maybe I tend to overthnk things and sometimes I wonder if life wouldn’t be simpler when it is not complicated by religion.
Just live. There is nothing you said that put doubts in my mind.

We are commanded to love God. That includes loving Him with our MINDS. This necessarily entails entertaining and embracing and chewing on a multitude of ideas and concepts about God.

For we cannot love God until we know who He is.

Now, of course, no one ought to be advocating that we “overthink” things.

However, we should not eschew complicated or difficult questions and theological concepts.

 

[Peter_J]

7 Sorrows, I’m not sure you got the point of the question to which you were responding,

Hi marywarfield. I applaud you for asking th tough questions, but I’d like to add another one: Is there any particular reason for Lutherans to call themselves Catholic?

In other words is there any reason for Lutherans to call themselves (and Orthdox and Anglicans) “Catholic” with a capital C?

If they don’t follow Luther-why do they continue to be called lutherans. Why don’t they change their name?

Well, much of the discussion here has covered at least one side of this question: namely, that we Catholics claim the name “Catholic” exclusively. (I’m thinking about starting a new thread to consider another side of the question.)

 

[PRmerger]

She is coming from the Old Catholic perspective (union of Utrecht) which would seem to account for much of this.

Naturally, marywarfield can answer for herself, but my response to the above is: I highly doubt that mary is “coming from the Old Catholic perspective”.

And even if she is indeed using that document as her criterion (PR says ever so skeptically), it does not account for the fact that she views 2 sacraments as a required entry into the Catholic Church, not the 7 the document declares to be required.

or both churches the episcopal office in apostolic succession, within which the whole church stands, t**ogether with the seven sacraments **form the ecclesiological pillars of their endeavours for ecclesial communion.

From whence does she get this criterion that belief in only 2 sacraments are necessary for inclusion into the Church?

And it would seem that this document erodes mary’s position that submission to the Roman Pontiff is not required for the name “Catholic”.

All previous official Old Catholic statements and declarations on the primacy of the bishop of Rome (see Appendix) have always recognised a factual primacy of the pope as it accords with the common tradition of the church of the East and the West.

 

[guanophore]

But they did.

Their point of view, it seems to me, is very similar to that of the EO, who believe that they have continued in the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic faith, while the Latins have separated themselves from it.

At the time of the Reformation, the faith had become nearly unrecognizable, and Reformers beleived that they were returning to the “true” faith which had become lost in the sauce.

And King Henry VIII did not want to be excommunicated either and he created his own church which in the beginning was probably very Catholic.

Indeed it was. It took some time for the whole of England to come to realize what had happened, and in the meantime, the Catholic laity, priests, and even Bishops just carried on as if nothing had changed.

The CC has often been criticized for being so slow to adapt to the “times”, but in my later years I have come to realize what I could not see in my youth. This ponderous slowness also serves to prevent the Church from falling into cultural fads.

It also seems to me that the successor of Peter as the visible sign of unity in the Church is a great source of preention against fracturing.

If they don’t follow Luther-why do they continue to be called lutherans. Why don’t they change their name?

And that, my dear, is the point of this thread! When they call themselves something that more closely describes their beliefs and practices, they are criticized.

[/QUOTE]

 

[guanophore]

I realize this might be off the topic, but what is your communion’s relationship with the Utrecht succession?

 

[KjetilK]

I realize this might be off the topic, but what is your communion’s relationship with the Utrecht succession?

Not direct, but the bishops in the Church of Norway have all been consecrated with Anglican co-consecrators who havew themselves been consecrated in the line which united the Anglican and Utrecht lines.