Why do many Christians have qualms about Paganism?

[PatriciusRex]

The best answer, which AV1 alluded to on page one, is that paganism, particularly the neo-paganism/Wicca sort, which I believe the OP was referencing, is sort of a “reactionary anti-Christianity.”

The major distinction between say, Wicca, and Shinto, is that Shinto represents a tradition that has an unbroken continuity into time immemorial. While from the Christian perspective this makes it no less incorrect a belief than Wicca, it at least has the virtue of antiquity and its practitioners are simply doing what they were taught to do by their ancestors, a good and wholesome reasoning, even as we’d prefer to introduce them to the Christian faith.

Wicca, on the other hand, has no continuity, but was fabricated in the early 20th century, and since most Wicca practitioners are former Christians, they have chosen to construct and practice the religion in such a way as to have it oppose Christianity in all the categories that they disagreed with, found unfair, or otherwise just disliked. As a result, practical Wicca, unlike Shinto or Hinduism, is not truly a thing unto itself but is formed in conscious relation to and often opposition against the teachings of Christianity. The “make-it-up-as-you-go-along”, which Wicca practitioners of course view as a strength of that religion, allows some spiteful ex-Christians among them to create ceremonies and prayers which are clearly deliberately designed to antagonize Christians.

Now before someone points it out, yes, Wicca was theoretically based on surviving descriptions of European pre-Christian religion, but the fact is, it’s conjecture and speculation based on fragmentary evidence. There was a period of at least a 1000 years during which no form of European pre-Christian paganism (with the exception of Sami religion, but most Wicca I’ve seen aspire to Celtic/Norse forms) was practiced that has irrevocably severed the link to those past faiths. I understand that for practitioners this doesn’t prevent them from finding some form of satisfaction in the religion and is indeed irrelevant to them, but the need to fill in the copious gaps lends itself to the “reactionary anti-Christianity” mode that I think sets most Christians against it more so than against other forms of non-Christian belief.

 

[Lost_Wanderer]

Why is it a double standard when one presents a much graver threat? Seeking out supernatural capacities is far worse than simply not believing because it puts you directly in the path of corrupting influences. I’ll agree that Hinduism is probably on the same level as paganism and witchcraft, but neither Shinto or Taoism are. All of them are bad, yes, but some are worse than others. This is not a double standard, it is simply a result of the particular natures of the religions.

Yes, that is a double standard. Honestly, if I had a gun but had to choose between a pagan threatening to ‘curse’ or me a jihadist with a detonator, I’ll put the bullet in the bomber’s head. Your pagan ‘threat’ can spit words at me all night for all I care.

In Catholic theology, that which kills the soul is far, far worse than that which kills the body.

Yet you can’t kill the soul unless you kill the body. You say I can’t be Catholic for believing that? Prove to me that pagans can kill the soul without harming the body.

Naturally, that would lead to doctoral contradictions of which you are grievously underestimating.

And why do you keep bringing up The Exorcist? I don’t think anyone here worships the exorcist, or regards it as much more than a movie.

I consider citing exorcists as infallible authorities equivalent to childish hero worship. And no, do not tell me you have not see those types play that card.

Are you deriding people for believing that we are at war with Satan? If so, I seriously suggest you reconsider that position, since the Church has explicitly stated that we are at war with Him on numerous cases, especially recently in light of the sudden prevalence of the homosexual movement; and attempts to attack the Church through the HHS mandate… I sincerely hope that’s not what you mean by that.

My issue is the delusion of religious grandeur. Sure, we’re at war with Satan. However, it is but a dull, dreary war. I would say the war that goes on at Wall Street is more exciting than sitting like the Guy Downstairs who just chuckles and guffaws at mankind’s own stupidity.

Such a war is hardly a case to consider his influence via ‘paganism’ to be any more sinister than the poor saps bombing themselves screaming Arabic.

I wouldn’t take it as a serious portrayal of the beliefs of Catholic laypeople.

Who said anything about Catholic laypeople? I’m not just talking about Catholics. I’m talking about generally delusional Christians who think pagans have the same powers as Skeletor.

That is ABSOLUTE nonsense, and completely in opposition to what the Church has taught since it’s creation.

The Church teaches that redemption can be granted to all even at the moment of death. To say that the destruction of the soul, the very opposite of that redemption, can occur while the person is still alive is either a serious blasphemy or dire proof that our religion operates on a grave contradiction.

You decide but do not tell me that I am “100%” out of line with Church teaching because I have the common sense to know physical death precedes spiritual destruction.

I could commit a mortal sin in order to live for five hundred more years; but at the end of those years, when I do at last suffer physical death, and am judged, that spiritual death will still send me away from God; which is the only true death.

Right… so basically you are saying that one can damn themselves while still alive. Essentially, in those hypothetical 500 years, there is nothing that you could have done to redeem yourself.

You are essentially saying that there are times when there is no hope for someone’s redemption. So basically, you are saying that the Church is wrong (or self-contradicting) when it says that salvation is granted to all those who seek it.

Last time I checked, that sort of theology is something you’d find in Dante’s Inferno, not the actual CCC.

 

[Lost_Wanderer]

Even the Church says so when it warns us against seeking help from psychics, palm readers, tarot card, oujia (sp?) boards, etc. I don’t know why you’re being so derogatory towards people who take these warnings seriously.

Because they’ve done nothing but make for more bad PR to an already disgraced Church. We are far, very far, from a position to tell anyone what to do. Our pedophile priest crisis has damaged our moral credibility to the point that it would take decades, if not a century, to repair. We are increasingly losing relevance in the world stage. The last thing we need is another bunch of ‘spiritual warriors’ flipping out over ouija boards and tarot cards.

So what if it is spiritually dangerous? Let them have the consequences then consult their local priest and be done with it. I don’t deny the danger. I just don’t consider it to be the sort of danger to be concerned with over more pressing and relevant risks we Catholics carry around these days with the spoiled image. The qualms some religious have over pagans is truly devoid of merit.

No, I was stating that your dismissal of demonic influences flies against Catholic Theology; and it does.

Dismissal? No. Downplaying? That’s your perspective. I just don’t see the ‘rise of paganism’ worth crying over compared to more primal sins (e.g. murder, human trafficking, abuse).

It’s where I drew the religions I used in my comparison. The OP made no reference to Islam, Wesboro Baptist or suicide bombers, you added all those. I was sticking to the examples he gave.

Do not chide me for following the last phrase and going beyond the examples given. It’s not like the OP forbade mention of the crimes committed by our Abrahamic fellows.

Being apart from God, they will do everything they can to pull you away from God as well; this is the danger in engaging in the occult.

Yet both Japan and India are arguably stable societies. You do not see people suffering the so-called negative effects of ‘pagan worship’. Like I said, I’ve read plenty of accounts from exorcists who only have the most traumatic and depressing accounts of people who practiced the occult.

When one looks at the countries I just mentioned, it is a sharp contrast.

I’d argue that nothing int his paragraph is relevant to the discussion at hand.

Economics has absolutely nothing to do with religious belief, I don’t know what that point has to do with anything. I would like to point out, however, that the “Pagan nations” you listed have some of the highest suicide rates in the world…

Your own contradiction here proves it is relevant. If it was truly not related to the topic, why veer to the same line of thinking that the spiritual warfare camp treads? Why mention a high suicide rate when you think their economy has nothing to do with it and their spirituality?

See that’s what you need to stop. There is less of a spiritual connection and more of humans just being human in a bad way. The fact that they are pagans really is irrelevant and that lack of relevancy is only more proof that qualms about paganism in general are just simply uncalled for.

Never said they were… But again, this has absolutely nothing to do with the topic at hand.

It has everything to do with the topic at hand. Seriously, you’re not reading the OP. It is about the clear-cut double standard we have against pagans. Every time we go on a propaganda campaign against their so-called ‘occult practices’ we risk turning a blind eye to the crimes of other religions. Furthermore, we lose lack of perspective. Look at the legacy that witch hunts and anti-pagan oppression has left the Church. I’d dare say the likes of Alexander VI left cleaner stains.

You cannot expect me to make reference to every possible religion because there are hundreds of thousands of them.

Yet you expect me to limit myself like you? I’m not going to have another double standard here. I am well within my right to see that this could cover more than specific mentions. My words are no more out of place mentioning the likes of Islam and extreme Fundamentalist Christianity than yours mentioning Shintoism and Hinduism.

 

[gmcbroom]

Lol, he mentioned Skeletor. . He man reference aside, Jesus warned against those that can kill the soul. Whether we see this happening or not doesn’t matter. We should still take it seriously. But should doesn’t mean people will.

 

[the_phoenix]

Okay, so this has apparently become a thread on “which do you consider a worse threat, Islam or paganism”?

As it happens, one of my daily Rosary intentions is for the conversion of the Muslims. That’s a group I feel especially called to pray for. Which you might find interesting considering I visited Fatima, Portugal, where Our Lady asked us to pray specifically for the conversion of Russia. So maybe to combine the two I could pray for the Muslims in Russia?

Anyways … I personally have not been praying every day for the conversion of pagans. Why not? Who knows? That said, any of you who feel called to do so, may God bless you … and yes, I should remember to include this intention of the conversion of pagans in my prayers as well, if not every day, then at least sometimes.

 

[RocketRM]

Lol, he mentioned Skeletor. . He man reference aside, Jesus warned against those that can kill the soul. Whether we see this happening or not doesn’t matter. We should still take it seriously. But should doesn’t mean people will.

+1
Lost Wanderer:

Because they’ve done nothing but make for more bad PR to an already disgraced Church.

I take great exception to your comments. The Church is not disgraced in any way. Individual members (clergy and laity) may disgrace *themselves * not the Church.
Lost Wanderer:

We are far, very far, from a position to tell anyone what to do.

We are certainly in a position to testify to the Truth and speak against evils. More so today with our society’s broken moral compass. We are following Christ and whether society likes it or not society could you a good hard dose of Christ to get back on track.
Lost Wanderer:

The last thing we need is another bunch of ‘spiritual warriors’ flipping out over ouija boards and tarot cards.

You simply want to focus on other evils and dangers. That’s great! I pray that you are successful in your endeavors.

But don’t dare dismiss those whose focuses are on fighting against other forms of evils including occult practices. Evil is evil.

 

[Pedro_1987]

Yeah, I never intended for this to go into a debate about Islamic terrorism at all.

 

[kimg901]

Anybody that would use spells or any type of witchcraft for their personal gains or to inflict harm to others is not christian and goes against all that our Lord taught. We must pray for their souls.

 

[Brendan_64]

As someone who has been over to paganism before being called back to Christianity and has a fair few pagan friends (mainly Norse tradition, and some wiccans and druids) here is my tuppence worth.

Any religion that does not follow the one true God of Abraham is not following a true God. If we believe that there is only one true God then that has to be our position. The concerning thing then is that with pagan religions you can experience ‘contact’ with and ‘converse’ with powerful beings (at least that was my experience). If they are not gods (which they cannot be if we believe in one true God) then what are they? I don’t think they’re figments of the imagination either. If we hold that they are not gods (which we do) then they must be powerful beings pretending to be gods? You don’t need to think to hard then to figure out what they must be.

As to not all pagans being involved in the occult, that is true. Some, like the Norse tradition, in the main simply honour, pray and meditate to what they think are their gods. Others, however have the occult deeply ingrained, wiccans, ceremonialists etc. And others such as setians (followers of Egyptian false-gods) are pretty much satanist in their beliefs. However, whether or not individual pagans or pagan traditions are involved in the occult, they all seem to associate with each other under the over-arching umbrella of “Paganism”.

So it is very difficult to see how Christians cannot be deeply opposed to paganism, even those of us who have pagan friends.

God bless

 

[Ridgerunner]

I am not a theologian.
Nor do I believe one can generalize fully about paganism.

Having said those things, it is my impression, bolstered by my long-ago study of some pagan religions that there are two fundamental differences between paganism and Christianity.

First, paganism’s fundamental goal is to gain power over those forces (whether gods, spirits, forces, etc) that are more powerful than men, and to exercise that power, whether for reasons thought good or evil. It is for that reason early Christians cautioned against “empty repetitions”, “seers”, “witches”, etc. All were believed to be means of gaining power over the gods or spirits or whatever. It is a non-acceptance of otherwise applicable processes.

Christianity is a religion of supplication and acceptance. We are taught to accept Divine Providence. We may pray in the sense of asking, but we do not seek to command or to invoke some formula that compels God to do our bidding. I’ll grant that some Christians seem to think they can do that, but they can’t, and should try to do it.

Second, paganism is a religion of “gnosis” (knowing). If we just knew enough of the secrets of the world of the gods, or spirits or nature, we could get into that commanding position. And so, a lot of paganism is dedicated to knowing the “secrets” that grant power.

In Christianity, “gnosis” is not revered. “Wisdom” is considered a virtue, but we cannot “know” the nature of God except to the extent He has volunteered to reveal Himself to us. No true Christian believes he can somehow go beyond that by any method.

As I mentioned, there are innumerable variations on paganism. But knowledge and power are central to virtually all of them.

The very notions of “commanding powerful forces” is repelling because Christians do not believe Divine power can be commanded at all, and if some suprahuman force is compliant it is believed to be a malevolent being bent on deceit.

It’s passingly interesting, perhaps, that even the pagan Greeks and Romans “sort of” knew this, despite the nature of their religions. They too had a sense of human “place”, and overreaching often resulted in destruction.

 

[Pedro_1987]

Anybody that would use spells or any type of witchcraft for their personal gains or to inflict harm to others is not christian and goes against all that our Lord taught. We must pray for their souls.

Many modern Pagans, especially Wiccans, believe that one should should avoid harming others. Many have a Karma system, so hurting people through magic would harm themselves in the process.

 

[Hrafnkel]

After reading this thread, I have to ask most of you:

What about the pagans who don’t practice ‘witchcraft’ or use it to ‘seek power’ or confer with spirits or whathaveyou. I’m assuming from the responses that the majority (understandably) only really have experience with Wiccans, but there’s a number of other branches of paganism that are less… theatrically creative, I suppose?

And to the few I saw who mentioned reconstructionism being invalid because of fragmented records and incomplete knowledge hindering accurate practice, it should probably be noted that we have Catholicism to blame for that fragmented knowledge in large part, and also that just because we don’t know everything there is to know about something doesn’t mean it should stay dead and buried in the past. Given the role of tradition in the catholic faith it seems like that would be a pretty easy thing to understand.

 

[Brendan_64]

After reading this thread, I have to ask most of you:

What about the pagans who don’t practice ‘witchcraft’ or use it to ‘seek power’ or confer with spirits or whathaveyou. I’m assuming from the responses that the majority (understandably) only really have experience with Wiccans, but there’s a number of other branches of paganism that are less… theatrically creative, I suppose?

I am an ex-Pagan who has now, thankfully, been called back to the Catholic Church of my birth.

I wasn’t a wiccan, but rather of the Norse tradition (although I do know lots of pagans from many different pagan traditions). Pagans from the Norse tradition, on the whole, pray, converse with, honour, meditate and worship what they percieve to be their gods. There is also divination using runes which are generally cut and the ‘blooded’ with the blood of the user/maker in honour of what they see as Odin’s sacrifice of himself on the tree of life.

The main issue is (for me anyway) that if you believe in the one true God of Abraham, then what are the beings that the pagans believe to be their gods? I don’t believe (from my own experience) that these beings are figments of the imagination. These beings do actually manage to build up individual personal relationships with people. So if they are not gods (and they cannot be, as there is only one God) then what are they? It doesn’t take much to work out the answer to that one.

Personally I believe that pagans are being unwittingly (in most cases) being used by dark forces.

Luckily I had a life-changing ‘call back’ experience on my way home from work one day, which resulted in my immediate return to the Christianity, and for that I am eternally greatful.

 

[Mike_SoCal]

All false religion leads to damnation according to scripture.

Christians want to save as many people as possible from Hell.

It’s that simple.

You have a freewill, so feel free to disagree.

 

[Hrafnkel]

I am an ex-Pagan who has now, thankfully, been called back to the Catholic Church of my birth.

I wasn’t a wiccan, but rather of the Norse tradition (although I do know lots of pagans from many different pagan traditions). Pagans from the Norse tradition, on the whole, pray, converse with, honour, meditate and worship what they percieve to be their gods. There is also divination using runes which are generally cut and the ‘blooded’ with the blood of the user/maker in honour of what they see as Odin’s sacrifice of himself on the tree of life.

The main issue is (for me anyway) that if you believe in the one true God of Abraham, then what are the beings that the pagans believe to be their gods? I don’t believe (from my own experience) that these beings are figments of the imagination. These beings do actually manage to build up individual personal relationships with people. So if they are not gods (and they cannot be, as there is only one God) then what are they? It doesn’t take much to work out the answer to that one.

Personally I believe that pagans are being unwittingly (in most cases) being used by dark forces.

Luckily I had a life-changing ‘call back’ experience on my way home from work one day, which resulted in my immediate return to the Christianity, and for that I am eternally greatful.

I personally don’t know very many Norse/Germanic/AS reconstructionists who do a lot of praying or meditating or conversing with the gods; I certainly don’t. More eclectic types, maybe, but the reconstructionist crowd usually approaches things in a less ‘personal’ way. I also know very few who do any of that ‘runecasting’ business, since pretty much all the details of it are purely manufactured by New Age authors. What sort of norse paganism did you adhere to? Recon or otherwise?

 

[Brendan_64]

I’d rather not go into details about that part of my past, suffice to say I am very glad to have left it behind. There is only one God, and any other beings purporting to be gods (and I certainly do not believe that they are figments of the imagination either) are actually something other than that. Those that worship or honour them are being duped and putting themselves in grave danger.

 

[PazzoGrande]

Would hindus and buddhists be considered modern pagans?

If not, why not? I know it’s not exactly politically correct in the post-Conciliar age, but aside from their age, I don’t see why they are so different from wiccans.

 

[Izdaari]

I have no problem with paganism in particular. It’s no worse than most non-Christian religions. I have known and loved a good many Wiccan individuals over the years.

 

[Hrafnkel]

I’d rather not go into details about that part of my past, suffice to say I am very glad to have left it behind. There is only one God, and any other beings purporting to be gods (and I certainly do not believe that they are figments of the imagination either) are actually something other than that. Those that worship or honour them are being duped and putting themselves in grave danger.

Why bring up your past at all if you aren’t willing to elaborate on it? If you’ve truly converted back to catholicism and done your part to receive atonement, there’s no reason to be ashamed of it. It’s simply something that is, or rather, was. It might shed some light to know where you’re coming from, exactly.

Would hindus and buddhists be considered modern pagans?

If not, why not? I know it’s not exactly politically correct in the post-Conciliar age, but aside from their age, I don’t see why they are so different from wiccans.

The definition of ‘paganism’ is pretty murky, in general. Loosely it could be used to refer to any non-christian religion, or at least any non-Abrahamic faith. In truth, ‘pagan’ rarely sounds politically correct at all, given its longtime usage to disparage all things non-christian, but political correctness is overrated. All that said, Buddhism (generally) isn’t so much a religion as a philosophy, in most senses.

 

[Brendan_64]

Why bring up your past at all if you aren’t willing to elaborate on it? If you’ve truly converted back to catholicism and done your part to receive atonement, there’s no reason to be ashamed of it. It’s simply something that is, or rather, was. It might shed some light to know where you’re coming from, exactly…

Just because I mention my past doesn’t mean that I am required to go into detail about it. I’ve said enough for it to be understood where I’m coming from. My personal life is my business and it is up to me how much of it I choose to publish on a public bulletin board.

I also resent your insinuation that I haven’t truly ‘converted’ back to Catholicism. I didn’t decide to ‘convert’ back, I was called back very loudly and very clearly and in such a way that I couldn’t but come back. And I am eternally grateful for that. I was accepted back unconditionally by Our Lord- something that I certainly didn’t deserve.

I’m not going to go into detail about my experiences of paganism as I do not want to give it any more ‘publicity’.

So in a nutshell my position is as follows:

1. There is only one God - the God of Abraham.
2. Pagans worship a wide range of many beings that they believe are gods.
3. These beings do exist (that I can say from my own personal experience).
4. These beings get very close to people, ‘befriend’ people and can create close relationships with people who falsely believe these beings are gods (this I also know from personal experience).
5. These beings cannot be gods (as there is only one God)
6. These beings are duping people (particularly those who are ‘searching’ for some sort of sprituality) and using people for their own ends, or for the ends of a powerful being at opposition to the one God.

Taking the view that all religions are as valid as each other and that we should accept paganism as being a set of benign religious faiths is very dangerous indeed. The false gods of paganism represent forces diametrically opposed to the one true God. The fact that many individual pagans seem to be decent people is irrelevant (most of them are indeed decent people) doesn’t take away from the fact that they are being tricked and used by the evil one.

As a Christian, Jew or Muslim who believes in the existence of the one true God, and in the existence of the Devil, demons and the very real battle on Earth between good and evil, you cannot simply accept paganism as a benign (or even neutral) force.