Why do many evangelical protestants not describe themselves as "protestants"

[Roostah]

Never fails to amaze me how quickly these guys high-tail it when asked for documentation.

In answer to the question, why evangelicals don’t call themselves protestants, I made the point that there where christians before the reformation who were not in the catholic church. First of all the reformation didn’t happen over night. It came about over a long time of pent up frustrations. I also made the point that there would have been christians that would not join the new institutional church. Remember, people 2000 years ago were every bit as intelligent (and crafty) as we are today. I make that point out of simple observation of human behavior (including christians) that not all agree on anything.

Justa demands proof! What, you want me to prove that 2000 years ago the sun rose in the east and set in the west? Observation is not good enough for you?

Of course there were believers in Jesus who disagreed with the formation of the institutional catholic church and the laws and traditions it was establishing.

I’m a christian, and just one example is that I would have walked away when the priesthood was established. True there are leaders, but those leaders are called to be servants but what we have in the catholic priesthood is these men are authoritarians who ruled with fear. Up till about 40 years ago these priests were feared by the people, who stood up or bowed down when a priest walked into the room…why they were perceived with the power to give you Jesus and salvation or withold it. You think these priests have authority? Read what Jesus taught his disciples / apostles: Mathew 20:25 But Jesus called them to Himself and said, “You know that the rulers of the Gentiles lord it over them, and their great men exercise authority over them. “It is not this way among you, but whoever wishes to become great among you shall be your servant, and whoever wishes to be first among you shall be your slave; just as the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give His life a ransom for many.”

Ya I woulda walked away from the institution with the establishment of the priesthood rulers. Jesus did not set up a 2 tier system. The clergy is a fraud and it’s not just catholics that do this, most all protestant denominations do the same, dress men in robes as though they are royalty, but that is error. But in every town, there is a nearby church where the people choose their leaders, where the people have a say, a vote in matters, where everyone is equal, where there are no rulers including the preacher. They are usually the small churches, autonomous, the ones catholics turn their noses to.

Ya and I woulda left the institution when they devised indulgences, paying your way or a loved ones way with money to get into heaven…terrible.

Do you want more Justa? You know the moderators will kick me right out of here…silence me…

 

[JustaServant]

Justa…With all due respect…I agree with Roostah here.
Lets’ be patient for a bit…and let him bring up his points.

In his initial response to me he mentioned that I have some pretty interesting “presuppositions”. I’m sure that he will be most interested to discover that he has some very interesting presuppositions of his own…
For instance - in my response to him I pointed out that just because there were people who stood outside or in opposition or whatever - does not automatically make them good or right.

It should prove to be an interesting conversation.

Peace
James

It’s been two days, and we have yet to see any “proof”.
I think my assessment was proven correct.

 

[fbl9]

@ Itwin:
If christianity was worn as a mere mask removing it would reveal the ugly truth underneath not Christ.

 

[rfournier103]

Justa…With all due respect…I agree with Roostah here.
Lets’ be patient for a bit…and let him bring up his points.

In his initial response to me he mentioned that I have some pretty interesting “presuppositions”. I’m sure that he will be most interested to discover that he has some very interesting presuppositions of his own…
For instance - in my response to him I pointed out that just because there were people who stood outside or in opposition or whatever - does not automatically make them good or right.

It should prove to be an interesting conversation.

Peace
James

It’s been two days, and we have yet to see any “proof”.
I think my assessment was proven correct.

I agree, Justa. If this ‘proof’ existed, he’d have provided it by now; surely (barring a time-consuming thing offline).

 

[ltwin]

@ Itwin:
If christianity was worn as a mere mask removing it would reveal the ugly truth underneath not Christ.

Exactly.

 

[CopticChristian]

.

QUOTE]

Itwin,

You have lots to discuss. I repeat this as I will make use of it later…

**As you think and feel, so you believe, speak and act…this is fact…

 

[Roostah]

I did answer, it was pulled by the moderator and I was given an infraction for contempt.

my email address is rousseau_james@hotmail.com

 

[ltwin]

I say…

I agree that there are fruits of the spirit. I believe that they commence with human effort. Tell me where you believe these fruits come from, how do you get them, start to finish, how are they made manifest, do you need to know what they are to manifest them?

Fruit of Spirit comes from, well, the Spirit. That is their origin. Those who have the Spirit have potential manifestation of the fruit, and when they act that potential is activated and real fruit is shown. As the Holy Spirit works within us and we experience greater transformation into the image of Christ, then the fruit produced is of ever greater quality.

As we pray, seek the face of God, read the word, attend church faithfully, and obey the Holy Spirit as he prompts us from time to time, etc., we will develop spiritually and we will be more able to live an overcoming and empowered Christian life. As intimacy with Christ increases, the sins that once seemed insurmountable to us and the works that once seemed impossible for us to accomplish on our own will simply fade away into being things that do not worry us or confound us because we will have the character of Christ. And the process continues, until we are dead.

Actions are important. Do you agree or disagree that action may in some way be the cause or commencement of these fruits, recognizing that we were created and that we were created with certain faculties?

On our part action commences or causes the fruit. We have to act. But we do not act alone or in vacuum. We act under the influence of the Holy Spirit.

This makes no sense to me. Christian life is a way of living. There is no Greek, there is no Gentile, no Barbarian. These are people that live a certain way. Pagans live a certain way. To be Christian implies you live a certain way and defines us apart from just being a Creature. Elaborate on why you say what we do, for what we do, believing and acting as Christians produces certain acts, how can you say what we do does not define our Christian life?

Christ does something. This defines us. How can this define us?

We are called as Christians to live a certain way. We are followers of The Way. But if we fail to live up to our high calling, as all of us will from time to time, that does not mean we are no longer Christian. What matters is our position in Christ. If I could save myself then I would do that, but I can’t. Thank God I don’t have to.

 

[Roostah]

I’m sorry… my post was deleted. I will try to explain myself in a manner acceptible.

 

[JustaServant]

I agree, Justa. If this ‘proof’ existed, he’d have provided it by now; surely (barring a time-consuming thing offline).

I have yet to find one fundy who comes here who has done so. They either ignore it or dance around it. It’s very disengenuous.

 

[jmcrae]

excuse me while I get the hang of copying quotes.

In answer to James: my, you certainly take some liberties with your pre suppositions. I was commenting on why evangelicals don’t call themselves protestants. As I mentioned, there were christian people who opposed the catholic church/state long before the reformation, yes back to the time of Jesus. The apostles were eye witesses, the apostles peformed miracles, they could be relied upon for discernment, and then the apostles died.

The Apostles appointed successors - Barnabas, Linus, Clement of Rome, Ignatius of Antioch, Polycarp, Justin, and so many more.

People either believed in Jesus or they didn’t. People were able to be believers without joining the club, the club hadn’t even been established yet, but what held people together was they believed in Jesus. The church is the people who believe in Jesus.

The “club” as you call it was established at Pentecost. its first generation activities are recorded in the Book of Acts. The activities of succeeding generations can be found in works such as The Faith of the Early Fathers and others.

The entire New Testament after the Gospels is the record of the Church acting with authority over cities, and telling Christians how to behave and what to do. There was never a time in the history of Christianity when the Church did not have authority over Christians.

 

[jmcrae]

Could it be said that the further a Christian community strays - from the teachings of Christ and the Apostles - the more “protestant” it becomes?

If so, could not a linear model be applied, that acknowledges a groups history and patrimony, relative to other groups and distance of each from authentic Christian teaching?

Such a model may look like this:

Christ >>> Apostles >>> Orthodox Christians >>> Roman Catholics >>> “mainline” protestants >>> “evangelical” protestants >>> all other “christian” communities.

'Sakya.

Other than switching around the order of the Roman Catholics and the Orthodox Christians, that looks good to me.

The Orthodox Churches didn’t split from the Roman Catholic Church until the 1000s AD.

Peter, together with the original Apostolic Church, was taken by force to Rome from Jerusalem in 67 AD, and from that date onward, the Church that was personally and directly established by Christ has been administered from Rome, with the exception of a very few years in exile at one point.

 

[CopticChristian]

As we pray, seek the face of God, read the word, attend church faithfully, and obey the Holy Spirit as he prompts us from time to time, etc., we will develop spiritually and we will be more able to live an overcoming and empowered Christian life.

On our part action commences or causes the fruit. We have to act. But we do not act alone or in vacuum. We act under the influence of the Holy Spirit.

We are called as Christians to live a certain way. We are followers of The Way. But if we fail to live up to our high calling, as all of us will from time to time, that does not mean we are no longer Christian. What matters is our position in Christ. If I could save myself then I would do that, but I can’t. Thank God I don’t have to.

Itwin…

**As you think and feel, so you believe, speak and act…this is fact…

You have in your mind thoughts that are imagined or experienced/retrieved through memory…these elements are what cause you to express to the world what it is you think and feel by your speech and actions…there is nothing else we can do…

In other words in our heads…Thinking/Feeling

In the World Speech/Behavior is an indication of the aforementioned…

So with that in mind…

To be something you must profess something, you must live someway, look to be something and of course consider you need help to do it…this is how I see Christianity and I can profess that in more formal terms however… **

You say…

Fruit of Spirit comes from, well, the Spirit. That is their origin. Those who have the Spirit have potential manifestation of the fruit, and when they act that potential is activated and real fruit is shown. As the Holy Spirit works within us and we experience greater transformation into the image of Christ, then the fruit produced is of ever greater quality.

The OHCAC teaches, as revealed truth, that the Fruits of the Spirit are the results of the Gifts of the Spirit…

The entire section on virtues is here…

scborromeo.org/ccc/p3s1c1a7.htm

III. THE GIFTS AND FRUITS OF THE HOLY SPIRIT

1830 The moral life of Christians is sustained by the gifts of the Holy Spirit. These are permanent dispositions which make man docile in following the promptings of the Holy Spirit.

1831 The seven gifts of the Holy Spirit are wisdom, understanding, counsel, fortitude, knowledge, piety, and fear of the Lord.

1832 The fruits of the Spirit are perfections that the Holy Spirit forms in us as the first fruits of eternal glory. The tradition of the Church lists twelve of them: “charity, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, generosity, gentleness, faithfulness, modesty, self-control, chastity.”

We were created with certain faculties and some of those faculties include the ability to do things on our own, as a result of being created with these faculties, efforts through our humanity, gifted in creation…

I. THE HUMAN VIRTUES

1804 Human virtues are firm attitudes, stable dispositions, habitual perfections of intellect and will that govern our actions, order our passions, and guide our conduct according to reason and faith. They make possible ease, self-mastery, and joy in leading a morally good life. The virtuous man is he who freely practices the good.

The moral virtues are acquired by human effort. They are the fruit and seed of morally good acts; they dispose all the powers of the human being for communion with divine love.

These virtues are animated and strengthened by grace and with the Holy Spirit are rooted in the Theologic Virtues

The virtues and grace

1810 Human virtues acquired by education, by deliberate acts and by a perseverance ever-renewed in repeated efforts are purified and elevated by divine grace. With God’s help, they forge character and give facility in the practice of the good. The virtuous man is happy to practice them.

1811 It is not easy for man, wounded by sin, to maintain moral balance. Christ’s gift of salvation offers us the grace necessary to persevere in the pursuit of the virtues. Everyone should always ask for this grace of light and strength, frequent the sacraments, cooperate with the Holy Spirit, and follow his calls to love what is good and shun evil.

These human acts, acquired by education and habit, animated by grace and the Holy Spirit allow us to change and with the help of the Theologic Virtues allow us to act as the children of God we are to be and hence to imitate Christ and be like Him…as the Spirit directs…

II. THE THEOLOGICAL VIRTUES

1812 The human virtues are rooted in the theological virtues, which adapt man’s faculties for participation in the divine nature:76 for the theological virtues relate directly to God. They dispose Christians to live in a relationship with the Holy Trinity. They have the One and Triune God for their origin, motive, and object.

1813 The theological virtues are the foundation of Christian moral activity; they animate it and give it its special character. They inform and give life to all the moral virtues. They are infused by God into the souls of the faithful to make them capable of acting as his children and of meriting eternal life. They are the pledge of the presence and action of the Holy Spirit in the faculties of the human being. There are three theological virtues: faith, hope, and charity.77

So, I believe as I am taught that there is human effort involved and we have to do something to be able to cooperate…

How do you see this?

 

[ltwin]

How do you see this?

I don’t read anything objectionable in the catechism passages you’ve quoted. I’ve always believed that we cooperate with God. We are free moral agents, not robots.

 

[AbideWithMe]

I don’t read anything objectionable in the catechism passages you’ve quoted. I’ve always believed that we cooperate with God. We are free moral agents, not robots.

I can’t speak for Calvinists, but for those raised in Wesleyan Evangelical churches such as Itwin and myself, we are synergists and there’s nothing we’d argue about in the Catechism passages.

 

[CopticChristian]

I don’t read anything objectionable in the catechism passages you’ve quoted. I’ve always believed that we cooperate with God. We are free moral agents, not robots.

Itwin,

This pleases me and I am grateful you see how it is I understand what you have said…

**As you think and feel, so you believe, speak and act…this is fact…

You have in your mind thoughts that are imagined or experienced/retrieved through memory…these elements are what cause you to express to the world what it is you think and feel by your speech and actions…there is nothing else we can do…

In other words in our heads…Thinking/Feeling

In the World Speech/Behavior is an indication of the aforementioned…

So with that in mind…

To be something you must profess something, you must live someway, look to be something and of course consider you need help to do it…this is how I see Christianity and I can profess that in more formal terms however… **

You then said this…

I’m sure you’ll agree that people can do a lot of good and can display very good outward behavior all while being inwardly animated by wrong motives. Think Matthew 7:15, “They come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves.”

However, if you examine where this passage comes from, it says this also…

15“Beware of the false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly are ravenous wolves. 16“You will know them by their fruits. Grapes are not gathered from thorn bushes nor figs from thistles, are they?

This is an admonition of those that come teaching other than what is revealed…

This is in the context of false prophets and their fruits….not necessarily Christ followers, for to follow revealed truths it would be accepted that they know what was revealed.

You have taken this passage and given it a meaning other than what I see, however this is what you see…

I’m sure you’ll agree that people can do a lot of good and can display very good outward behavior all while being inwardly animated by wrong motives.

Is it your belief that people in their professing false teaching may be inwardly directed by wrong motives? If this is so, then is it possible that those motives may not necessarily be known to them as wrong, believed to be true, however misdirected. In other words to makes sense ouf the passage and what you say, do those that speak falsely always know that they are speaking falsely or is it possible they speak falsely not knowing that what they were taught is false?

 

[ltwin]

Is it your belief that people in their professing false teaching may be inwardly directed by wrong motives? If this is so, then is it possible that those motives may not necessarily be known to them as wrong, believed to be true, however misdirected. In other words to makes sense ouf the passage and what you say, do those that speak falsely always know that they are speaking falsely or is it possible they speak falsely not knowing that what they were taught is false?

What I’m saying is that people can appear in sheep’s clothing and be ravenous wolves. They don’t have to be false teachers or false prophets. Perhaps a more appropriate analogy is Jesus’ parable of the wheat and weeds. Both will grow together, and it will be Jesus who will sort it all out at harvest time. The point being that we cannot always tell by appearances who is motivated by godliness and who is not. Someone who does good not out of a sense of love for Christ and others, but for their own advantage or seeking their own glory is not motivated by Christ or the Holy Spirit. They are not imitating Christ, therefore they are not doing what Christians do. Good will still be done, and Christ may even be glorified outwardly. All of that is a positive. But if the inner motive of the person is for their own good, then they may seem like they are imitating Christ to everyone else but God is not fooled. He knows the heart of man. He knows whether we are truly seeking to imitate Christ or not.

Do you deny this is a possibility? Or do you think that all good works are meritorious for their own sake apart from love of Christ and seeking after godliness?

Or to put it another way, is there a need for our motives to be purified: to offer our deeds and our motivations to God as worship “in spirit and in truth”? Or is God fine and dandy with selfish motives masquerading as godly ones?

I personally do not see how that moves us any closer to being Christlike, since even pagans and atheists can do those kind of good deeds.

 

[CopticChristian]

What I’m saying is that people can appear in sheep’s clothing and be ravenous wolves. They don’t have to be false teachers or false prophets. Perhaps a more appropriate analogy is Jesus’ parable of the wheat and weeds. Both will grow together, and it will be Jesus who will sort it all out at harvest time. The point being that we cannot always tell by appearances who is motivated by godliness and who is not. Someone who does good not out of a sense of love for Christ and others, but for their own advantage or seeking their own glory is not motivated by Christ or the Holy Spirit. They are not imitating Christ, therefore they are not doing what Christians do. Good will still be done, and Christ may even be glorified outwardly. All of that is a positive.
Do you deny this is a possibility? Or do you think that all good works are meritorious for their own sake apart from love of Christ and seeking after godliness?

Or to put it another way, is there a need for our motives to be purified: to offer our deeds and our motivations to God as worship “in spirit and in truth”? Or is God fine and dandy with selfish motives masquerading as godly ones?

I personally do not see how that moves us any closer to being Christlike, since even pagans and atheists can do those kind of good deeds.

Itwin,

I don’t read minds. I take people at their face value…you seem to concern yourself with others…I concern myself with myself…

But if the inner motive of the person is for their own good, then they may seem like they are imitating Christ to everyone else but God is not fooled. He knows the heart of man. He knows whether we are truly seeking to imitate Christ or not.

I don’t understand all this rhetoric about others and the entire notion of not acting like a Christian, just be one…it makes no sense…

Let’s just speak of you. You said Christians are defined by what Christ did and I said Huh…Christians are defined by their actions and I am not sure I get you…explain…

 

[Kirovsakya]

Wow, that is the first time I have ever been called a Protestant. Your posts have such an endearing quality to them. Welcom to CAF. Hope you get to stick around for awhile.

I certainly did not call you a Protestant. I used the generic term “protestant” to describe groups which separated themselves from the Church to established their denominations.

• The Roman church in the 11th century.
• The Protestant church in the 16th century.

 

[CopticChristian]

I certainly did not call you a Protestant. I used the generic term “protestant” to describe groups which separated themselves from the Church to established their denominations.

• The Roman church in the 11th century.
• The Protestant church in the 16th century.

Kiro,

So we are on the same page…

There is no such thing as the Protestant Church…no headquarters or leadership lets say…

The Roman Church as you know is stationed in Rome and has an organization with leadership…

Now where is the leadership for the Orthodox Church stationed and what is the organization?

You are correct that Protestants sepearated from Rome and the Church…

If you believe that Rome separated from the Orthodox and there is a central authority, where is it?

If there is no central authority and they are just Churches scattered around the world with Bishops, then Rome remains a Church with a Bishop…how is you belive that there was separation?