Why do many evangelical protestants not describe themselves as "protestants"

[ltwin]

Itwin,

I don’t read minds. I take people at their face value…you seem to concern yourself with others…I concern myself with myself.

With all due respect, never have I suggested that you or I read minds. You seem to suggest that anyone who observes human nature and their own spiritual condition must be projecting that outside of themselves. I’m not asking for you to judge anyone but yourself. You are the only one capable of determining whether you are acting like a Christian or being one. It’s a phrase that should provoke an individual to think about and assess their own spiritual condition.

I take people at face value as well. But that doesn’t mean I deny human nature, and that I live in denial about human nature and the potential that all people have for gaining glory, honor, attention, power and influence for themselves. This is a fact. People do it. Acknowledging human nature is not concerning yourself with other people, it is acknowledging that you yourself are a person and capable of doing what all human beings can possibly do.

We are talking about what it means to be a Christian. Christians are people. How should we talk about the inward and outward dimensions of being a Christian without talking about hypothetical people who are Christians???

So, what is your answer? Do you think that right motives are important or not?

I don’t understand all this rhetoric about others and the entire notion of not acting like a Christian, just be one…it makes no sense…

I say this with humility. First, in order for you to understand what I’m saying, it may be necessary for you to step back and reread our conversation without assuming that I’m judging people or reading people’s minds or not taking people at face value. I’m not accusing people of not being Christians. I’m not spending my time looking for clues whether other people are Christians or not. I do examine myself, and I seek to be purified and refined inwardly so that I can show true godliness outwardly. That’s what I do. If that offends people then too bad.

Let’s just speak of you. You said Christians are defined by what Christ did and I said Huh…Christians are defined by their actions and I am not sure I get you…explain…

I’m not sure you get me either, and I don’t know what more I can do to help you understand.

 

[CopticChristian]

With all due respect, never have I suggested that you or I read minds. You seem to suggest that anyone who observes human nature and their own spiritual condition must be projecting that outside of themselves. I’m not asking for you to judge anyone but yourself. You are the only one capable of determining whether you are acting like a Christian or being one. It’s a phrase that should provoke an individual to think about and assess their own spiritual condition.

I take people at face value as well. But that doesn’t mean I deny human nature, and that I live in denial about human nature and the potential that all people have for gaining glory, honor, attention, power and influence for themselves. This is a fact. People do it. Acknowledging human nature is not concerning yourself with other people, it is acknowledging that you yourself are a person and capable of doing what all human beings can possibly do.

We are talking about what it means to be a Christian. Christians are people. How should we talk about the inward and outward dimensions of being a Christian without talking about hypothetical people who are Christians???

So, what is your answer? Do you think that right motives are important or not?

I say this with humility. First, in order for you to understand what I’m saying, it may be necessary for you to step back and reread our conversation without assuming that I’m judging people or reading people’s minds or not taking people at face value. I’m not accusing people of not being Christians. I’m not spending my time looking for clues whether other people are Christians or not. I do examine myself, and I seek to be purified and refined inwardly so that I can show true godliness outwardly. That’s what I do. If that offends people then too bad.

I’m not sure you get me either, and I don’t know what more I can do to help you understand.

Itwin,

then look at this…

**As you think and feel, so you believe, speak and act…this is fact…

You have in your mind thoughts that are imagined or experienced/retrieved through memory…these elements are what cause you to express to the world what it is you think and feel by your speech and actions…there is nothing else we can do…

In other words in our heads…Thinking/Feeling

In the World Speech/Behavior is an indication of the aforementioned…

So with that in mind…

To be something you must profess something, you must live someway, look to be something and of course consider you need help to do it…this is how I see Christianity and I can profess that in more formal terms however… **

Do you agree that the only things we can do is

Think/Emote in our heads
Speak and Act in our bodies

I do not see anything else we can do…do you agree?

 

[ltwin]

Itwin,

then look at this…

Do you agree that the only things we can do is

Think/Emote in our heads
Speak and Act in our bodies

I do not see anything else we can do…do you agree?

If I think in my head that I am the bishop of Rome and go about speaking and acting as if I’m the said the bishop but I have never been made a bishop, does that make me the Bishop of Rome?

If I think in my head that I am a Christian and go about speaking and doing as if I’m said Christian but inwardly my motives are not pure and the imitation of Christ is only skin deep, does that make me a Christian?

 

[CopticChristian]

If I think in my head that I am the bishop of Rome and go about speaking and acting as if I’m the said the bishop but I have never been made a bishop, does that make me the Bishop of Rome?

If I think in my head that I am a Christian and go about speaking and doing as if I’m said Christian but inwardly my motives are not pure and the imitation of Christ is only skin deep, does that make me a Christian?

Itwin,

Do you do anything beyond thinking and emoting in your head?

Can you do anything but speak and act?

 

[ltwin]

Do you do anything beyond thinking and emoting in your head?

Much of what we think is incorrect and entirely outside of the realm of reality.

Can you do anything but speak and act?

We can speak, and we can act. We are in control of these. But we are also in control of why we do those things, speaking and acting. Man looks at the outside; God looks at the heart.

 

[ltwin]

As I think further on this issue, I’m drawn to Matthew 7. This chapter begins with “Judge not, that you be not judged.” Further down appear verses 21-23:

“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’

It’s not enough to do or act. We have to be known by Him. Those who know and love Jesus will imitate and obey Him, as it is written in John 14:21,

If anyone loves me, he will keep my word, and my Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our home with him.

Doing things in Jesus’ name is not the same thing as obeying Jesus or knowing Jesus or loving Jesus. It is a fine distinction, but it is a distinction none the less.

 

[CopticChristian]

Much of what we think is incorrect and entirely outside of the realm of reality.

We can speak, and we can act. We are in control of these. But we are also in control of why we do those things, speaking and acting. Man looks at the outside; God looks at the heart.

Itwin,

In many and various ways God spoke in parts through His prophets and in these last days He spoke to us through His Son…and if this is true and what God wants us to know is Revealed…regardless of what we think…is this correct? Is this reality?

If all God does is look at the heart, a beating muscle, that moves blood through our bodies…what is it God sees and if that is all that is necessary, why imitate Christ?

 

[CopticChristian]

As I think further on this issue, I’m drawn to Matthew 7. This chapter begins with “Judge not, that you be not judged.” Further down appear verses 21-23:

It’s not enough to do or act. We have to be known by Him. Those who know and love Jesus will imitate and obey Him, as it is written in John 14:21,

Doing things in Jesus’ name is not the same thing as obeying Jesus or knowing Jesus or loving Jesus. It is a fine distinction, but it is a distinction none the less.

Itwin,

How do you make that distinction so that all know what that means?

 

[ltwin]

Itwin,

In many and various ways God spoke in parts through His prophets and in these last days He spoke to us through His Son…and if this is true and what God wants us to know is Revealed…regardless of what we think…is this correct? Is this reality?

There is what is revealed to be reality, and then there is our perception of reality. Those in Matthew 7 thought they knew Jesus, but Jesus didn’t know them at all.

If all God does is look at the heart, a beating muscle, that moves blood through our bodies…what is it God sees and if that is all that is necessary, why imitate Christ?

Heart, as in the center of the mind and the emotions. God looks at the whole man, but we are naturally unable to look into the heart of another person. God sees where you and I cannot. We can only see outward action, but God can see the inward feelings, thoughts, and emotions that animate that action. So, we can attempt to fool others, but we can never fool God, which is why we should be mindful that we do not fall into the error of doing things rather than of imitating Christ.

Action cannot be left out. Just as it is dangerous to get caught up in doing without actual imitation, it is equally dangerous to get caught up in thinking without any action. Jesus didn’t think about being loving toward sinners, he actually loved sinners. Action cannot be separated from authentic imitation. Pure intention cannot be separated from authentic imitation. It takes both to authentically imitate Jesus.

Itwin,

How do you make that distinction so that all know what that means?

Well, I think we have to begin by examining our motivations. Why are we doing what we are doing? What motivates us? Is it Christ and love for him and others that drives us? Or is it self-interest? We should always lay our inward thoughts before God, and allow him to renew our minds and purify our thoughts. I think this is part of dying to self that we must undergo.

 

[ltwin]

When someone acts without authentic Christlike love and motivation, they are merely “acting” (as in playing a character role rather than being an actual person) like a Christian.

When action arises from and is coupled with Christlike love and motivation, then the person is truly imitating Christ. He or she is doing what Christ does for the reasons that Christ does them. This person is truly being a Christian.

That’s how I see it.

 

[IgnatianPhilo]

Probably because they don’t want to be associated with any sort of group or “religion” (The whole false dichotomy of religion vs Christ) and just be called Christian. Obviously they are protestants as they are heirs to the theology of the reformers, basic points like Sola Fide, Sola Scriptura and ultimately I would say a lack of proper understanding of ecclesiology.

 

[CopticChristian]

When someone acts without authentic Christlike love and motivation, they are merely “acting” (as in playing a character role rather than being an actual person) like a Christian.

When action arises from and is coupled with Christlike love and motivation, then the person is truly imitating Christ. He or she is doing what Christ does for the reasons that Christ does them. This person is truly being a Christian.

That’s how I see it.

Itwin,

Who decides when someone is acting without authentic Chrislike love and motivation?

 

[ltwin]

Itwin,

Who decides when someone is acting without authentic Chrislike love and motivation?

That is something that the individual has to work out and discern. No one is capable of “deciding” who is authentic and who is acting. The point of the phrase is not to decide for a person whether they are authentic or not. It is to provoke the hearer to examine themselves.

 

[AbideWithMe]

The point of the phrase is not to decide for a person whether they are authentic or not. It is to provoke the hearer to examine themselves.

Well said. Itwin’s other posts have been well written also, but this particular point, I hope, may help Coptic understand better.

 

[mark_a]

That’s a good question. Until Itwin sees your post, I’ll throw in my two cents. I’ve come across both scenarios, but I think it’s most common in Mainline churches which do contain evangelicals to find it’s the whole congregation which is evangelical.

Well, anything is possible. It’s possible that someone sitting in a PCA church isn’t even Presbyterian.

If you are asking about membership though, since the PCA is a Reformed evangelical body, then anyone professing to adhere to what the PCA believed would be adhering to a form of evangelicalism.

No. I mean it could happen, but if it there was a non-evangelical PCA congregation, it would probably mean that that congregation was making a big departure from what the PCA stands for.

You have to understand that the PCA was formed from a realignment of Presbyterianism in the US. You had on one level a reaction against the encroachment of liberalism within the Presbyterian mainline and on the other level you had all the regional splits of mainline Presbyterianism left over from the Civil War. So, having formed as an evangelical pushback against the liberal mainline, it would be highly unlikely that the PCA would not be evangelical in any meaningful sense.

Not only is the PCA evangelical in character. It is, in fact, a card carrying evangelical denomination by virtue of its membership in the National Association of Evangelicals.

Now mainline Presbyterianism (the Presbyterian Church USA) is a different story. It’s overwhelmingly liberal, but it was originally evangelical. So, there are still pockets of evangelicalism left in the the PCUSA. Plus the mainlines tend to be tolerant of any belief as long as it doesn’t threaten their liberal shibboleths.

Evangelical denominations are different in this way from mainline Protestants. Where the mainline is widely tolerant of many different beliefs (including heresy at times), evangelical churches tend to insist on conformity to essential Christian doctrine as this is understood by evangelicals.

Thanks, folks!

I think I’m starting to get the picture, am I correct in my train of thought:

Evangelicals have a certain set of non-negotiables or undeniable beliefs (what Catholics might call dogmas).

Am I getting it?

 

[CopticChristian]

That is something that the individual has to work out and discern. No one is capable of “deciding” who is authentic and who is acting. The point of the phrase is not to decide for a person whether they are authentic or not. It is to provoke the hearer to examine themselves.

Itwin,

What you say about

Stop acting and be one, I compare and contrast that with this…

Do as I do, not as I say…

Actions speak louder than words…

Show me your works and I will show you your Faith…

Preach the Gospel at all times, if necessary use words…

Our actions, our doing, acting like a Christian is being a Christian…so the notion of stop acting and start being do not register in the context of the aforementioned…however to move on…

**As you think and feel, so you believe, speak and act…this is fact…

You have in your mind thoughts that are imagined or experienced/retrieved through memory…these elements are what cause you to express to the world what it is you think and feel by your speech and actions…there is nothing else we can do…

In other words in our heads…Thinking/Feeling

In the World Speech/Behavior is an indication of the aforementioned…

So with that in mind…

To be something you must profess something, you must live someway, look to be something and of course consider you need help to do it…this is how I see Christianity and I can profess that in more formal terms however… **

You said…

“Stop acting like a Christian and just be one” is a catchy phrase that I like because it catches the tension between what people commonly reduce Christianity to and what Christianity actually is.

What do you mean by tension?

What is your understanding of this tension?

Is this something you experience, notice, feel, tell me…more…

 

[jmcrae]

There is what is revealed to be reality, and then there is our perception of reality. Those in Matthew 7 thought they knew Jesus, but Jesus didn’t know them at all.

Heart, as in the center of the mind and the emotions. God looks at the whole man, but we are naturally unable to look into the heart of another person.

We can and do look into our own hearts, though - I think this is what Coptic is driving at.

If you are not conscious of your own actions, or conscious of the reasons for your actions, then you are not responsible for them, and not only can you not be blamed for them, you also can’t be rewarded for them. No one is rewarded for breathing, for example - it is an unconscious behaviour.

God sees where you and I cannot. We can only see outward action, but God can see the inward feelings, thoughts, and emotions that animate that action. So, we can attempt to fool others, but we can never fool God, which is why we should be mindful that we do not fall into the error of doing things rather than of imitating Christ.

Thought precedes and directs deliberate action, though. How you think is how you act. A person who thinks about good things does good things - his actions are the fruit of his thoughts. A person who thinks about evil things does evil things - his actions, too, are the fruit of his thoughts.

Of course, a person can daydream and not put his daydreams into action - but even in this case, the content of a person’s daydreams also influence his attitudes, and in turn, his actions.

Action cannot be left out. Just as it is dangerous to get caught up in doing without actual imitation, it is equally dangerous to get caught up in thinking without any action. Jesus didn’t think about being loving toward sinners, he actually loved sinners.

Jesus did both. Jesus *could not *have loved sinners, if He had not thought of doing so - just as no one can ever do anything that he has not thought of.

 

[AbideWithMe]

Well, I think we have to begin by examining our motivations. Why are we doing what we are doing? What motivates us? Is it Christ and love for him and others that drives us? Or is it self-interest? We should always lay our inward thoughts before God, and allow him to renew our minds and purify our thoughts. I think this is part of dying to self that we must undergo.

That is something that the individual has to work out and discern. No one is capable of “deciding” who is authentic and who is acting. The point of the phrase is not to decide for a person whether they are authentic or not. It is to provoke the hearer to examine themselves.

Jmcrae, how do you see what you said here as different than what Itwin said in the above quotes?

We can and do look into our own hearts, though - I think this is what Coptic is driving at.

 

[CopticChristian]

We can and do look into our own hearts, though - I think this is what Coptic is driving at.

If you are not conscious of your own actions, or conscious of the reasons for your actions, then you are not responsible for them, and not only can you not be blamed for them, you also can’t be rewarded for them. No one is rewarded for breathing, for example - it is an unconscious behaviour.

Thought precedes and directs deliberate action, though. How you think is how you act. A person who thinks about good things does good things - his actions are the fruit of his thoughts. A person who thinks about evil things does evil things - his actions, too, are the fruit of his thoughts.

Of course, a person can daydream and not put his daydreams into action - but even in this case, the content of a person’s daydreams also influence his attitudes, and in turn, his actions.

Jesus did both. Jesus *could not *have loved sinners, if He had not thought of doing so - just as no one can ever do anything that he has not thought of.

Jmcrae,

You understand. You cannot think/believe and then act other than as you think and believe. You cannot act other than as you think and believe. God says so.

Proverbs 12:22

Deceitful speech is reprehensible to the LORD, but **those who act **faithfully are his delight.

Proverbs 13:16

In everything the prudent acts with knowledge, but a fool flaunts his folly.

Proverbs 14:17

A man of quick temper acts foolishly, and a man of evil devices is hated.

Proverbs 20:11

Even children are known by the way they act, whether their conduct is pure, and whether it is right.

It is incongruent to say…

Stop acting like a Christian, Be one. This Protestant pastor is expressing something of a novelty not consistent with the mind of God…

otherwise it would make no sense to say…

What would Jesus Do…?

it should then say

What would Jesus Be…?

Our actions are determined by our thoughts and any person that chooses to Follow Christ is to act, based on thoughts and beliefs…

Actions in turn are the result of how we think and believe and in fact have the capacity to change how we think and believe, it is a two way street…

 

[AbideWithMe]

Jmcrae,

You understand. You cannot think/believe and then act other than as you think and believe. You cannot act other than as you think and believe. God says so.

It is incongruent to say…

Stop acting like a Christian, Be one. This Protestant pastor is expressing something of a novelty not consistent with the mind of God…

otherwise it would make no sense to say…

What would Jesus Do…?

it should then say

What would Jesus Be…?

Our actions are determined by our thoughts and any person that chooses to Follow Christ is to act, based on thoughts and beliefs…

Coptic----“Act” can also refer to “putting on an act” or living from a “false self”/“persona” moreso than from a true self/authentic self. Itwin’s language here of acting or wearing a mask, as opposed to being authentic or transparent, is familiar to me. I hear it, and understand it, from more than just Christians. I’m wondering if perhaps it’s a matter of age differences and use of language that’s causing the “talking past each other” quality of this part of the thread.