Why do many evangelical protestants not describe themselves as "protestants"

[jmcrae]

Jmcrae, how do you see what you said here as different than what Itwin said in the above quotes?

He was implying that you can do things without knowing why you do them. That a person can seek to imitate Christ in his actions, without intending to do as Christ would do.

Such a person would not be fully in his right mind.

People who are in their right mind act according to their thoughts. They don’t act unconsciously, or without knowing the reason for their own actions.

A person who does things unknowingly (without thinking of them and planning to do them) would be someone who is in an altered state of consciousness due to head trauma, brain injury or disease, to being high or drunk, or due to a mental illness of some kind. Such a person cannot be considered to be in his right mind.

 

[jmcrae]

Coptic----“Act” can also refer to “putting on an act” or living from a “false self”/“persona” moreso than from a true self/authentic self.

Other than stage work or film or television (and possibly politics), what on earth would be the purpose of acting against one’s thoughts or beliefs?

 

[AbideWithMe]

He was implying that you can do things without knowing why you do them. That a person can seek to imitate Christ in his actions, without intending to do as Christ would do.

Such a person would not be fully in his right mind.

People who are in their right mind act according to their thoughts. They don’t act unconsciously, or without knowing the reason for their own actions.

A person who does things unknowingly (without thinking of them and planning to do them) would be someone who is in an altered state of consciousness due to head trauma, brain injury or disease, to being high or drunk, or due to a mental illness of some kind. Such a person cannot be considered to be in his right mind.

I don’t know if you saw my post to Coptic right above yours since we posted close together time-wise…does my post about the different meaning of “act” clear anything up?

To a considerable extent, even the most introspective, self-reflective of us are not always fully aware of all of our motives. That’s normal. Though, I don’t think that’s the main gist of what Itwin has been saying in his replies to Coptic.

 

[AbideWithMe]

Other than stage work or film or television (and possibly politics), what on earth would be the purpose of acting against one’s thoughts or beliefs?

Here’s something about the false self/true self concept from a long-time Catholic spiritual director. Maybe this will help to clear things up (particularly the first item, "Characteristics of the False Self System "). shalomplace.com/res/flslf.html

Everyone, to greatly varying degrees, acts from a false self at times.

 

[jmcrae]

I don’t know if you saw my post to Coptic right above yours since we posted close together time-wise…does my post about the different meaning of “act” clear anything up?

Not really - see my next post. What would be the point of someone “acting” in real life?

Again, perhaps there is a mental illness or head trauma involved.

To a considerable extent, even the most introspective, self-reflective of us are not always fully aware of all of our motives. That’s normal. Though, I don’t think that’s the main gist of what Itwin has been saying in his replies to Coptic.

I don’t think human beings are as complex or as mysterious as all that. Someone who doesn’t know why he did something, either he acted without thinking (out of reflex or instinct), or he doesn’t want to share his embarrassing reason out loud. But I find it difficult to believe that people go around without knowing what they are thinking - that just doesn’t make any sense.

 

[CopticChristian]

Coptic----“Act” can also refer to “putting on an act” or living from a “false self”/“persona” moreso than from a true self/authentic self. Itwin’s language here of acting or wearing a mask, as opposed to being authentic or transparent, is familiar to me. I hear it, and understand it, from more than just Christians. I’m wondering if perhaps it’s a matter of age differences and use of language that’s causing the “talking past each other” quality of this part of the thread.

Abide,

In the context of understanding, not necessarily, to issues of false self, schizophrenic, dual personalities, hypocrites, etc…this is CAF where you notice it is an explanation and defense of the Faith…in that regard…Christianity is based on accepting the deposit of Faith and then living it…

The Catechism is the deposit of Faith…so Christians should accept all that God Revealed…

Profession of Faith

Live a Sacramental Llife

Life in Christ, model Christ and here is where the focus of this dialogue is focused

and Pray, ask for help…

Life In Christ, commences with human effort, Human virtues, that I previously pointed out from the Catechism, these are gifts from the Creator, Moral Virtues are executed by habit, we ACT and DO THEM…but that is based on how we think and believe…and when understood as part and parcel of the Theologic Virtues…and the grace of God, guided by the Holy Spirit…we are a work of God, start to finish…These graces, The Spirit provide us Gifts, we believe in the Sacraments that manfest Fruits…that people see as ACTIONS…

So, in the context of the fullness of the Faith…Christ is what we are to become like, we are children of God, in varying degrees like Christ…however…what we hope to achieve is to be Saintly…so I suggest that rather than say to anyone randomly reading a post…

Stop Acting like A Christian, Be one…

I say…

Keep Acting like A Christian so you can become Saintly in your daily exercise of Actions, aided by the Grace of God, directed as a child of God, to be Holy as God is Holy, to present yourself as a pleasing work of the Spirit…

Keep Acting Like a Christian and become Saintly…

makes more sense to me and I am not concerned about all this nonsense of masks and mirrors, authenticity, and the like…

We are fellow co-workers…and all I see is some doing more work than me, better work than me, and I am still just a worker that the Master is to judge, not me…

You and Itwin are welcome to join in understanding, professing and Acting like Christians in the fullness of the Faith…

 

[ltwin]

Itwin,

What you say about

Stop acting and be one, I compare and contrast that with this…

Do as I do, not as I say…

Actions speak louder than words…

Show me your works and I will show you your Faith…

Preach the Gospel at all times, if necessary use words…

Our actions, our doing, acting like a Christian is being a Christian…so the notion of stop acting and start being do not register in the context of the aforementioned…however to move on…

I don’t see how the phrase “Stop acting like a Christian and just be one” contradicts “Actions speak louder than words.” What you say would only make sense if you define “being” as simply speaking words. I don’t. I define being a Christian as doing what Christ does for the reasons that Christ does them. This fits completely with both “Actions speak louder than words” and “Show me your works and I will show you your Faith” and “Preach the Gospel at all times and when necessary use words.” I don’t see the problem that you do.

What do you mean by tension?

What is your understanding of this tension?

Is this something you experience, notice, feel, tell me…more…

The tension between simply doing stuff to make us and others feel better about ourselves and puff ourselves up and truly imitating/knowing Christ. If we do a lot of good, but we fail to tap into the heart of God, to be passionate about what and who he is passionate about then we are missing a crucial component of what imitating Christ is all about. Before we can truly imitate Christ in any meaningful way, we must first have some level of intimacy with him. Through knowing him, we learn to love what he loves and are able to fully do what he does, act in the way that he acts.

 

[CopticChristian]

I

don’t see how the phrase “Stop acting like a Christian and just be one” contradicts “Actions speak louder than words.” What you say would only make sense if you define “being” as simply speaking words. I don’t. I define being a Christian as doing what Christ does for the reasons that Christ does them. This fits completely with both “Actions speak louder than words” and “Show me your works and I will show you your Faith” and “Preach the Gospel at all times and when necessary use words.” I don’t see the problem that you do.

 

[AbideWithMe]

Not really - see my next post. What would be the point of someone “acting” in real life?

Again, perhaps there is a mental illness or head trauma involved.

I don’t think human beings are as complex or as mysterious as all that. Someone who doesn’t know why he did something, either he acted without thinking (out of reflex or instinct), or he doesn’t want to share his embarrassing reason out loud. But I find it difficult to believe that people go around without knowing what they are thinking - that just doesn’t make any sense.

We keep loosely cross-posting …if you have time to check out the link (it’s not long), that might help.

C.S. Lewis’ novels The Great Divorce and Till We Have Faces are a couple of thoughtful books that go into the idea of not being fully aware of all of our motives.

 

[jmcrae]

Itwin,

This tension sounds like an internal conflct. Do you struggle like this, doing, acting, not tapping into the heart of God? Do you struggle with intimacy? If as you say the only concern we have is concern for ourselves then are you saying you have a personal struggle? We really are not to concern ourelves with what we might think other do because if we believe it is a work of God…then what others do is only a concern for them. How long have you had this internal conflict?

To resolve such a conflict it would be very important to take control of one’s thoughts (I would recommend a 9-day directed silent retreat with an Opus Dei spiritual director, to get started) and be resolved to make deliberate decisions over and over again to choose virtue for Christ’s sake, in order to grow both in virtue and in Christ. A good spiritual director can guide a person in the steps to achieving self-mastery in this and many other areas.

 

[CopticChristian]

We keep loosely cross-posting …if you have time to check out the link (it’s not long), that might help.

C.S. Lewis’ novels The Great Divorce and Till We Have Faces are a couple of thoughtful books that go into the idea of not being fully aware of all of our motives.

Abide,

While I am sure this is very good reading of people with problems, what it has to do with what we are talking about escapes me. People do things for different reasons. People on the CAF come to share ideas, ask questions, and some come to try to convert Catholics…that is always a humorous time…

Protestants come to this forum for many reasons and I will not list them all…to concern ourselves with motives of others is putting time and effort into places where that effort would be better served by understanding the only motives that will make a difference in our lives…are…ours…

The only way to discern a motive is to ask the person of concern and then and only then can you discern motives…I sometimes do that however for the most part I am more inclined to discern motivation and aid to bolster that…

Keep Acting Like A Christian…

We Act Like Christians because we are…

 

[jmcrae]

We keep loosely cross-posting …if you have time to check out the link (it’s not long), that might help.

C.S. Lewis’ novels The Great Divorce and Till We Have Faces are a couple of thoughtful books that go into the idea of not being fully aware of all of our motives.

I checked the link - it seems to be dealing with people who have low self-esteem (a mental illness).

Not with people whose mental health is generally good.

 

[ltwin]

We can and do look into our own hearts, though - I think this is what Coptic is driving at.

If you are not conscious of your own actions, or conscious of the reasons for your actions, then you are not responsible for them, and not only can you not be blamed for them, you also can’t be rewarded for them. No one is rewarded for breathing, for example - it is an unconscious behaviour.

I’m not talking about being unconscious of what you’re doing. I’m talking about doing things that outwardly are good (like anyone can do: atheists do good things, agnostics do good thing, pagans do good things) but without the intention of imitating Christ and without being animated by the love of Christ.

Perhaps you’ve never experienced this, but I have. I grew up in church all my life, and I’ve always maintained outward expectations for what Christians should do. But I have not always sought within myself to do all of this out of my love for God. I asked God’s forgiveness for sins repeatedly and went right back to doing them to the point that I did not even feel conviction for really horrible things I was doing on a daily basis. I did a lot of bad things when no one was looking. A lot of the good things I did I did out of a need to please people and a need to be praised for what I did. Perhaps I’m a horrible person and more selfish than most people from the reactions that I’m getting on this thread, but I don’t think that. I think many people go through the same things I have went though-Acting like a Christian but not being one.

Thought precedes and directs deliberate action, though. How you think is how you act. A person who thinks about good things does good things - his actions are the fruit of his thoughts. A person who thinks about evil things does evil things - his actions, too, are the fruit of his thoughts.

I think we’re talking about two different things. A person can know what is the right thing to do. I can know and think rationally that I am to feed the hungry and clothe the naked, and not do it out of laziness, selfishness, or just because I just don’t care about doing what is right.

Jesus did not just know what was right and refused to do it. He knew, and he acted.

Of course, a person can daydream and not put his daydreams into action - but even in this case, the content of a person’s daydreams also influence his attitudes, and in turn, his actions.

Not if all he does is think and never act. If he does not act, then there is nothing for his thoughts to influence.

Jesus did both. Jesus *could not *have loved sinners, if He had not thought of doing so - just as no one can ever do anything that he has not thought of.

Yes, that’s my point. He did both. You can’t separate right thoughts and motivation from action, which is what I thought Coptic Christian was thinking that I was doing-prioritizing thinking and speaking over acting. I’m not doing that.

 

[CopticChristian]

I’m not talking about being unconscious of what you’re doing. I’m talking about doing things that outwardly are good (like anyone can do: atheists do good things, agnostics do good thing, pagans do good things) but without the intention of imitating Christ and without being animated by the love of Christ.

Perhaps you’ve never experienced this, but I have. I grew up in church all my life, and I’ve always maintained outward expectations for what Christians should do. But I have not always sought within myself to do all of this out of my love for God. I asked God’s forgiveness for sins repeatedly and went right back to doing them to the point that I did not even feel conviction for really horrible things I was doing on a daily basis. I did a lot of bad things when no one was looking. A lot of the good things I did I did out of a need to please people and a need to be praised for what I did. Perhaps I’m a horrible person and more selfish than most people from the reactions that I’m getting on this thread, but I don’t think that. I think many people go through the same things I have went though-Acting like a Christian but not being one.

I think we’re talking about two different things. A person can know what is the right thing to do. I can know and think rationally that I am to feed the hungry and clothe the naked, and not do it out of laziness, selfishness, or just because I just don’t care about doing what is right.

Jesus did not just know what was right and refused to do it. He knew, and he acted.

Not if all he does is think and never act. If he does not act, then there is nothing for his thoughts to influence.

Yes, that’s my point. He did both. You can’t separate right thoughts and motivation from action, which is what I thought Coptic Christian was thinking that I was doing-prioritizing thinking and speaking over acting. I’m not doing that.

Itwin,

In all your acting, while you do not appreciate the acting, acting and doing does cause a change of mind…and you have…changed your mind…

You prove that acting can cause being…

 

[ltwin]

He was implying that you can do things without knowing why you do them. That a person can seek to imitate Christ in his actions, without intending to do as Christ would do.

Such a person would not be fully in his right mind.

People who are in their right mind act according to their thoughts. They don’t act unconsciously, or without knowing the reason for their own actions.

A person who does things unknowingly (without thinking of them and planning to do them) would be someone who is in an altered state of consciousness due to head trauma, brain injury or disease, to being high or drunk, or due to a mental illness of some kind. Such a person cannot be considered to be in his right mind.

Totally missed the point of what I was saying. I’m not talking about that.

I’m talking about simply questioning why we do the things we do. I can do it. I sit down, and examine myself. Often this occurs when I’ve listened to a sermon or just anything that God uses to grab my attention, and I find that in what I have done and why I’ve done them I have not been following Christ.

 

[CopticChristian]

I checked the link - it seems to be dealing with people who have low self-esteem (a mental illness).

Not with people whose mental health is generally good.

Jmcrae,

It is a site for someone that has an eclectic approach to things like Addiction, CoDependency and other problems…it is not a site for those that want to learn the Faith…it attracts people with problems and for that we should understand that if it is valuable to someone, then that someone has problems and we should respect that.

I am not a fan of Co-dependence as it leans on the 12 step model of Addiction and this notion of False self has to do with troubled people.

It reminds me of the MMPI, with “often” and “frequently”…

When people are mentally challenged it may provide solace. For my money get hold of the Audio Catechism for Adults USA, $42.00…spend some time there and avoid all the psyhobabble…false self, Chakras, hypocrites and get on board lil chillin…room for many a more…

 

[ltwin]

Itwin,

In all your acting, while you do not appreciate the acting, acting and doing does cause a change of mind…and you have…changed your mind…

You prove that acting can cause being…

No. It was actually when I stopped acting and just began to seek him in prayer and reacquaint myself with God and desire his presence and just fell in love with him again. The things I did was just stuff that needed doing. It was only after I reoriented myself spiritually that I could take pleasure in doing good and not be burdened by them.

 

[CopticChristian]

No. It was actually when I stopped acting and just began to seek him in prayer and reacquaint myself with God and desire his presence and just fell in love with him again. The things I did was just stuff that needed doing. It was only after I reoriented myself spiritually that I could take pleasure in doing good and not be burdened by them.

Itwin,

Actions, evaluations of those Actions, using your mind and continuing to Act produced what you believe to be what you want to be…so

Keep acting like a Christian because you are one and keep acting to become Saintly…

Are you sure you don’t want in on the fullness of truth?

 

[jmcrae]

I’m not talking about being unconscious of what you’re doing. I’m talking about doing things that outwardly are good (like anyone can do: atheists do good things, agnostics do good thing, pagans do good things) but without the intention of imitating Christ and without being animated by the love of Christ.

Right - people can do good things for all kinds of reasons. If the actions are good, then the reasons for doing them cannot be “bad” even if they are not specifically for Christ.

An atheist can feed hungry people because he feels in himself that hunger is a bad thing, so for that reason it’s important to feed people when they are hungry. This is still a good reason for feeding hungry people, and goes back to Jesus when He said, “Do as you would be done to.” (The Golden Rule.) So, you’re right - you don’t have to be a Christian in order to do good things.

However, when a Christian does good things, he doesn’t have to worry that he’s “not a Christian” because his motives for doing good things might not be completely pure. He remains a Christian as long as he is a baptized person who affirms the Creed and does his best to do what he thinks God would have him do.

Perhaps you’ve never experienced this, but I have. I grew up in church all my life, and I’ve always maintained outward expectations for what Christians should do. But I have not always sought within myself to do all of this out of my love for God. I asked God’s forgiveness for sins repeatedly and went right back to doing them to the point that I did not even feel conviction for really horrible things I was doing on a daily basis. I did a lot of bad things when no one was looking. A lot of the good things I did I did out of a need to please people and a need to be praised for what I did. Perhaps I’m a horrible person and more selfish than most people from the reactions that I’m getting on this thread, but I don’t think that. I think many people go through the same things I have went though-Acting like a Christian but not being one.

And again, if you were doing good things, then the reason was that it was important to do good things because … (whatever) - and because Jesus expects it - and there’s nothing at all wrong with that. It’s always okay to do good things!

I don’t think anyone should ever be encouraged to stop doing good things because we think their motives might not be pure enough. Any motive that results in good is most likely to be good enough and people can build from there.

I think we’re talking about two different things. A person can know what is the right thing to do. I can know and think rationally that I am to feed the hungry and clothe the naked, and not do it out of laziness, selfishness, or just because I just don’t care about doing what is right.

Right - that’s true. But it’s not because they are thinking of doing good things, but rather, because they are thinking instead, it’s too hard, or it’s too boring, or, it puts me out and throws off my TV watching schedule, or it costs too much, or whatever, and thus, it is the bad thoughts they are having that prevent them from doing good things - not their good thoughts.

Jesus did not just know what was right and refused to do it. He knew, and he acted.

Exactly, yes.

Not if all he does is think and never act. If he does not act, then there is nothing for his thoughts to influence.

In that case, he is asleep, because apart from being asleep, we are always acting.

We need to choose to act on our good thoughts (do good things), and put aside our bad thoughts (rationalizations about why not to do the good things we are thinking about).

 

[AbideWithMe]

I checked the link - it seems to be dealing with people who have low self-esteem (a mental illness).

Not with people whose mental health is generally good.

It’s a matter of the degree of “false self” influence and control in one’s life. A person who has generally good mental health will not only be less influenced by their false self, they will be more aware of when their false self is seeking to influence them. I think this is what Itwin is talking about—he’s normal, he’s maturing (he seems to me more mature than the majority of college students or 20-somethings I know) and he’s becoming more aware of when his false self is in action…and he’s choosing to be more authentic.

The Catholic spiritual director who wrote the questionnaire in the link has led many retreats and has been a full time spiritual director for many years. He considers false self problems to be common–again, to greatly varying degrees.