Why do Modern Popes Embrace Idolatry?

[JustaServant]

Here’s the commandment:

Exodus 20:4-5
You shall not carve idols for yourselves in the shape of anything in the sky above or on the earth below or in the waters beneath the earth; you shall not bow down before them or worship them. For I, the LORD, your God, am a jealous God, inflicting punishment for their fathers’ wickedness on the children of those who hate me, down to the third and fourth generation

The image of cherubim on the ark, the cherubim and oxen in the temple, and the bronze serpent are all “in the shape of anything in the sky above or on the earth below or in the waters beneath the earth.” If they are permitted, but not worshipped, then that is enough for me to realize that having images that are not worshipped is acceptable to God.

2132 The Christian veneration of images is not contrary to the first commandment which proscribes idols. Indeed, “the honor rendered to an image passes to its prototype,” and “whoever venerates an image venerates the person portrayed in it.” The honor paid to sacred images is a “respectful veneration,” not the adoration due to God alone:

Religious worship is not directed to images in themselves, considered as mere things, but under their distinctive aspect as images leading us on to God incarnate. The movement toward the image does not terminate in it as image, but tends toward that whose image it is.

The bronze serpent is the clearest example. It was permitted, though it was an image of something on the earth, which would violate the commandment against graven images if taken as Protestants take it.
Yet, this graven was a source of healing. It is proof that God can use material things to heal, a sacramental point of view.
It was destroyed when it in and of itself became an object of worship.

 

[Lev23]

Hi Lev,

Before you said…
Forget it, the God of Israel is real, He is the only true God, He is the creator of this whole universe.

We who believe in Him and have faith in Him also have evidence of Him…etc etc

Well, if I was a Hindu - I would say EXACTLY THE SAME about Ganesh.

Ganesh is the only true God because I have faith.

Do you see the problem? Your faith wrestles with my Hindu - who decides who is right?!

all the best

Does a Hindu have a God who has proven himself by its prophecies? Remember, the God of Israel’s prophecies are not a cheap attempt at fortune-telling. He foretells His prophecies so when they come to pass, it is for His Holy Namesake and for mankind to know it is Him that is the Creator, the only God. Does a Hindu have historical, archaelogical evidence of past events that showed God’s Hand at work through His chosen people? As a matter of fact, there are historical and archaelogical evidences that show Israel’s enemies making referneces to biblical events and people.

 

[wisdomseeker]

Hi all,

I thought I’d add a contribution from a non-believer. I was raised catholic, but as I grew up I found I could not accept its ideas and left. I still find many of your ideas distasteful, but I still hold confidence in debate.

There seems to be a feeling that the Pope should go out of his way to tell other religions they are ‘wrong’ and that catholism is right. So, the first point is how do we decided this?

Whenever I debate with believers, I’m always told that they have “faith” and I will never be able to disprove that. I agree. I think thats right. Human beings have produced thousands of gods to believe in. Therefore if the Pope comes and instructs other to believe in your god, your opponents will come back to you with - but we have FAITH.

This is the elephant in the room for religion. Each religion wants to be declared “true” - however each also holds to the notion of faith. I hold that “faith” is probably the worst single idea that humans have come up with - the Golden Rule, being the best!

In todays world, relying on faith is still strong although is being tested. Your Pope has become a diplomat of the highest order. He cannot preach to other religions, simply because he would be attacking “faith” itself. And it a climate, where evidence is becoming how humans decide what is true - he cannot afford to do this.

Hope that help and take care

that is why faith alone does not work.

 

[straggleyway]

Hiya Lev23,

Does Hinduism have prophesies?! Yes, of course they do. And guess what - they are true too!

For example…

*Baha’is have pointed to the prophecies in the Hindu scriptures and stated that all of these have been fulfilled in this age. There are many passages in the Hindu writings which describe the condition of the world at the end of the Kalki Yuga. Baha’is would say that what is described in the Hindu books is exactly what we are seeing in the world today. *

Now,… the 64 million dollar question is, do *you * believe these prophesies? Well, of course you dont. You were not brought up in the Hindu tradition, and therefore you dont find it credible - you might even called it crazy.

I dont believe the Hindu prophesies. And - I dont believe in your prophesies either. *Every *religion has prophesies - it is a common technique used to prove that a supernatural being is on your side. It has been used in the religions before Judaism.

Next you say something new to me. That you have archaelogical evidence…? What is this evidence and what does it prove? Has the evidence you refer to been published in a peer-review journal of archaelogy? If so, do you know the reference? I’m interested in that kind of stuff. I ask because the field of Biblical archaelogy has no agreement at all, that there is evidence for a God acting on the world. If you have information of this sort, it would be sensational and I would urge you to publish it.

 

[straggleyway]

Wisdomseeker

that is why faith alone does not work.

yes, but again, every religion says this. You need the temple or you need the priest or you must read the sacred writings…

But why should we believe all of *your *stuff is correct?!

 

[Lev23]

Here’s the commandment:

Exodus 20:4-5
You shall not carve idols for yourselves in the shape of anything in the sky above or on the earth below or in the waters beneath the earth; you shall not bow down before them or worship them. For I, the LORD, your God, am a jealous God, inflicting punishment for their fathers’ wickedness on the children of those who hate me, down to the third and fourth generation

The image of cherubim on the ark, the cherubim and oxen in the temple, and the bronze serpent are all “in the shape of anything in the sky above or on the earth below or in the waters beneath the earth.” If they are permitted, but not worshipped, then that is enough for me to realize that having images that are not worshipped is acceptable to God.

The bronze serpent is the clearest example. It was permitted, though it was an image of something on the earth, which would violate the commandment against graven images if taken as Protestants take it.
Yet, this graven was a source of healing. It is proof that God can use material things to heal, a sacramental point of view.
It was destroyed when it in and of itself became an object of worship.

I would like to highlight 2 points you make.

If they are permitted, but not worshipped, then that is enough for me to realize that having images that are not worshipped is acceptable to God.

Just keep in mind that these images you speak of are from God Himself! They were either copies of the things in Heaven or the symbol of the Messiah to come. They came from His command.

Images or whatever else can be beneficial for believers to remind us of what God Has done for us in the past and is doing for us in the present. These things can remind us of past champions of faith. But things get iffy when we make something with our hands and try to use it as a “window looking into heaven”, and even worse, the actual image we conjure up becomes more important than people themselves.

The bronze serpent is the clearest example. It was permitted, though it was an image of something on the earth, which would violate the commandment against graven images if taken as Protestants take it.

Like I said above, protestants, and all Christians for that matter know these are not in violation against the God of Israel’s commandments because He instructed the people to make them. The command was from Him, not man.

 

[Lev23]

Hiya Lev23,

Does Hinduism have prophesies?! Yes, of course they do. And guess what - they are true too!

For example…

*Baha’is have pointed to the prophecies in the Hindu scriptures and stated that all of these have been fulfilled in this age. There are many passages in the Hindu writings which describe the condition of the world at the end of the Kalki Yuga. Baha’is would say that what is described in the Hindu books is exactly what we are seeing in the world today. *

Now,… the 64 million dollar question is, do *you * believe these prophesies? Well, of course you dont. You were not brought up in the Hindu tradition, and therefore you dont find it credible - you might even called it crazy.

I dont believe the Hindu prophesies. And - I dont believe in your prophesies either. *Every *religion has prophesies - it is a common technique used to prove that a supernatural being is on your side. It has been used in the religions before Judaism.

Next you say something new to me. That you have archaelogical evidence…? What is this evidence and what does it prove? Has the evidence you refer to been published in a peer-review journal of archaelogy? If so, do you know the reference? I’m interested in that kind of stuff. I ask because the field of Biblical archaelogy has no agreement at all, that there is evidence for a God acting on the world. If you have information of this sort, it would be sensational and I would urge you to publish it.

The God of Israel’s prophecies are specific, very specific. They are not a broad guess at how bad the world be at a later time.

For instance-
**Zechariah 12:1-2
This is the word of the LORD concerning Israel. The LORD, who stretches out the heavens, who lays the foundation of the earth, and who forms the spirit of man within him, declares: "I am going to make Jerusalem a cup that sends all the surrounding peoples reeling. Judah will be besieged as well as Jerusalem. On that day, when all the nations of the earth are gathered against her, I will make Jerusalem an immovable rock for all the nations. All who try to move it will injure themselves. **

Now go Google “Jerusalem”, “dividing Jerusalem”, “United Nations Jerusalem”, etc. etc. Look on the web-video-news sections of your google search. What is the biggest obstacles for the nations to solve the middle east problem? Jerusalem.

Amazing, isn’t it?

That is just one out of many. The prophecies that foretold the coming of Jesus as the suffering servant came to pass, and there are more foretelling His coming back.

continued…

 

[Lev23]

continued…

How about for being dispersed from their land for 2000 years, the Hebrew people are today are coming back into the land they were dispersed from. The dispersion was prophesied, and guess what, so was their return, which at the moment, is ongoing. And if you want to say the Hebrews in the land today are imposters because they are not following God the way He wants them to see Him, that is through His only Son Jesus Christ, then you might be amazed to see he brought them back in the land in unbelief. There is a time coming when they all look and call out for their Messiah, who is Jesus.

**Ezekiel 36
A Prophecy to the Mountains of Israel
"Son of man, prophesy to the mountains of Israel and say, 'O mountains of Israel, hear the word of the LORD. This is what the Sovereign LORD says: The enemy said of you, “Aha! The ancient heights have become our possession.” ’ Therefore prophesy and say, ‘This is what the Sovereign LORD says: Because they ravaged and hounded you from every side so that you became the possession of the rest of the nations and the object of people’s malicious talk and slander, therefore, O mountains of Israel, hear the word of the Sovereign LORD : This is what the Sovereign LORD says to the mountains and hills, to the ravines and valleys, to the desolate ruins and the deserted towns that have been plundered and ridiculed by the rest of the nations around you- this is what the Sovereign LORD says: In my burning zeal I have spoken against the rest of the nations, and against all Edom, for with glee and with malice in their hearts they made my land their own possession so that they might plunder its pastureland.’ Therefore prophesy concerning the land of Israel and say to the mountains and hills, to the ravines and valleys: 'This is what the Sovereign LORD says: I speak in my jealous wrath because you have suffered the scorn of the nations. Therefore this is what the Sovereign LORD says: I swear with uplifted hand that the nations around you will also suffer scorn.
" 'But you, O mountains of Israel, will produce branches and fruit for my people Israel, for they will soon come home. I am concerned for you and will look on you with favor; you will be plowed and sown, and I will multiply the number of people upon you, even the whole house of Israel. The towns will be inhabited and the ruins rebuilt. I will increase the number of men and animals upon you, and they will be fruitful and become numerous. I will settle people on you as in the past and will make you prosper more than before. Then you will know that I am the LORD. I will cause people, my people Israel, to walk upon you. They will possess you, and you will be their inheritance; you will never again deprive them of their children.

" ‘This is what the Sovereign LORD says: Because people say to you, “You devour men and deprive your nation of its children,” therefore you will no longer devour men or make your nation childless, declares the Sovereign LORD. No longer will I make you hear the taunts of the nations, and no longer will you suffer the scorn of the peoples or cause your nation to fall, declares the Sovereign LORD.’ "

Again the word of the LORD came to me: "Son of man, when the people of Israel were living in their own land, they defiled it by their conduct and their actions. Their conduct was like a woman’s monthly uncleanness in my sight. So I poured out my wrath on them because they had shed blood in the land and because they had defiled it with their idols. I dispersed them among the nations, and they were scattered through the countries; I judged them according to their conduct and their actions. And wherever they went among the nations they profaned my holy name, for it was said of them, ‘These are the LORD’s people, and yet they had to leave his land.’ I had concern for my holy name, which the house of Israel profaned among the nations where they had gone.

"Therefore say to the house of Israel, 'This is what the Sovereign LORD says: It is not for your sake, O house of Israel, that I am going to do these things, but for the sake of my holy name, which you have profaned among the nations where you have gone. I will show the holiness of my great name, which has been profaned among the nations, the name you have profaned among them. Then the nations will know that I am the LORD, declares the Sovereign LORD, when I show myself holy through you before their eyes.

" 'For I will take you out of the nations; I will gather you from all the countries and bring you back into your own land. I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you will be clean; I will cleanse you from all your impurities and from all your idols. I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit in you; I will remove from you your heart of stone and give you a heart of flesh. And I will put my Spirit in you and move you to follow my decrees and be careful to keep my laws. You will live in the land I gave your forefathers; you will be my people, and I will be your God. I will save you from all your uncleanness. I will call for the grain and make it plentiful and will not bring famine upon you. I will increase the fruit of the trees and the crops of the field, so that you will no longer suffer disgrace among the nations because of famine. Then you will remember your evil ways and wicked deeds, and you will loathe yourselves for your sins and detestable practices. I want you to know that I am not doing this for your sake, declares the Sovereign LORD. Be ashamed and disgraced for your conduct, O house of Israel!

" ‘This is what the Sovereign LORD says: On the day I cleanse you from all your sins, I will resettle your towns, and the ruins will be rebuilt. The desolate land will be cultivated instead of lying desolate in the sight of all who pass through it. They will say, “This land that was laid waste has become like the garden of Eden; the cities that were lying in ruins, desolate and destroyed, are now fortified and inhabited.” Then the nations around you that remain will know that I the LORD have rebuilt what was destroyed and have replanted what was desolate. I the LORD have spoken, and I will do it.’

“This is what the Sovereign LORD says: Once again I will yield to the plea of the house of Israel and do this for them: I will make their people as numerous as sheep, as numerous as the flocks for offerings at Jerusalem during her appointed feasts. So will the ruined cities be filled with flocks of people. Then they will know that I am the LORD.”**

 

[Lev23]

Next you say something new to me. That you have archaelogical evidence…? What is this evidence and what does it prove? Has the evidence you refer to been published in a peer-review journal of archaelogy? If so, do you know the reference? I’m interested in that kind of stuff. I ask because the field of Biblical archaelogy has no agreement at all, that there is evidence for a God acting on the world. If you have information of this sort, it would be sensational and I would urge you to publish it.

The land of Israel is full of such. There are towns still alive from the biblical times. There are towns that are no more from the biblical times, and guess what, Jesus spoke judgement over those towns that are no more.

Look at the Temple Mount in Jerusalem, the old city of David.

How can you say “the field of Biblical archaelogy has no agreement at all, that there is evidence for a God acting on the world”?

Look at Israel, they are still a distinct nation after all these years. Where are those that came against Israel and ultimately against their God, who is the God of Israel? Thats right, their nation is no more. You can go visit a museum to see artifacts from these dead nations, maybe see some mummies. But you can go to Israel and see them alive and kicking. You can go Egypt and play on crumbling pyramids, go to Rome and see the crumbling colosseum, go to Babylon and see the pathetic ruins of Babel. But the land of Israel is flourishing with their people back on it living there. Those other nations have only their ruins to show for.

 

[JustaServant]

If I knew any Catholics who worshipped a statue of Mary, St. Joseph or even a statue of Christ as the Israelites worshipped the calf or the serpent, or the Greeks and Romans their gods, then I would be among the first to speak against it.
But I’ve never seen it.
In every case I’ve seen, the person is praying to the person represented in the image. In the case of Christ, He is worship. In the case of the saints, it is request for intercession. Never is the worship/adoration/latria due to God alone ever offered to an image.
And, the CCC reference makes this quite clear, as does the historical fact that Collyridianism was denounced as heresy precisely because it involved Mary worship–denounced by Catholic bishops!
God commanded that we do not WORSHIP statues/false gods. We DON’T.
If God hates statues and icons so much why DID he command the serpant on the pole or the cheribum on the ark?
The problem begins when people WORSHIP inanimate objects - an object itself is not harmful.

 

[pickguard1]

Yes. We’re also a bit more educated and less barbaric than times of yore as well. I think it’s a sign of humanity developing.

That’s debateable
Of course, this is a HUGE generalization because any use of the words “our” or “we” in this context encompasses either A) the West, or B) the whole world. If it’s the West, then I would maybe agree to the educated part, but “less barbaric”? I hardly think so. It’s just that our barbarism is directed in different directions than in centuries past.

If it’s the whole world, then maybe slightly more educated, but **definitely not **less barbaric.

 

[MICHAEL_CIALONE]

:thumbsup:I am more astounded on what is going on the Vatican…it baffles me !

Original Catholic teaching was that Christ alone is the Way and the Truth. Now the Vatican is giving an impression of many religions that everyone is equal, all roads lead to heaven. Now Senator Ted Kennedy is going to have a Catholic Mass at the Redemptorist Bascilica Mission Church in Roxbury, MA. Doesn’t the Catholic Church smell the coffee ? Obama and Kennedy did not support the Vatican’s position on abortion. They approved the murder of unborn children…a Catholic Mass for one that approved of the murder of unborn children ! How can the Catholic Church fanagle modern theology concerning this one ?

Sgt. Pelliccio, I was a seminarian at one time. I am very gratefull I did not spend money on spurious theological “Catholic” education…end up being a priest that was taught wrong doctrine and misleading the faithfull. Prior to my entry to the Redemptorist seminary college, I was very active in the Charismatic Renewal and attending Pentecostal services. The seminary actually tried to sequester me.

By the way, you are not far from the tomb of the prophet Ezekiel; he is buried in mosque in Al Hillah, a small town…for years I have been wanting to go there and visit that tomb. Ezekiel is my favorite OT prophet ! Moslems and Jewish people have been going there for centuries. Please let me know what you think of it. You will find it awesome, some photos of this venerable shrine are amazing…hopefully it is still there.

Mike Cialone–Staten Island, NY:thumbsup:
michaelcialone@yahoo.com

It is nonsense and should cease immediately. During the time of the martyrs in Rome, Catholics were put to death for not offering the emperor a pinch of incense as sacrifice. Who are we to betray such a noble lineage and history?

I am currently station in Al Hillah, Iraq. Last week was some religious holiday for the shia moslems, and here on the camp they set aside a room for them. A few of the locals who are my friends asked one of my Soldiers to go into the room, burn the incense, light a candle and make a wish. Sadly enough, he did it. Nevertheless, this here is once Sergeant who would rather end up on Al Jazzera losing my head before I betray Christ.

 

[CWBetts]

:thumbsup:I am more astounded on what is going on the Vatican…it baffles me !

Original Catholic teaching was that Christ alone is the Way and the Truth. Now the Vatican is giving an impression of many religions that everyone is equal, all roads lead to heaven. Now Senator Ted Kennedy is going to have a Catholic Mass at the Redemptorist Bascilica Mission Church in Roxbury, MA. Doesn’t the Catholic Church smell the coffee ? Obama and Kennedy did not support the Vatican’s position on abortion. They approved the murder of unborn children…a Catholic Mass for one that approved of the murder of unborn children ! How can the Catholic Church fanagle modern theology concerning this one ?

Sgt. Pelliccio, I was a seminarian at one time. I am very gratefull I did not spend money on spurious theological “Catholic” education…end up being a priest that was taught wrong doctrine and misleading the faithfull. Prior to my entry to the Redemptorist seminary college, I was very active in the Charismatic Renewal and attending Pentecostal services. The seminary actually tried to sequester me.

By the way, you are not far from the tomb of the prophet Ezekiel; he is buried in mosque in Al Hillah, a small town…for years I have been wanting to go there and visit that tomb. Ezekiel is my favorite OT prophet ! Moslems and Jewish people have been going there for centuries. Please let me know what you think of it. You will find it awesome, some photos of this venerable shrine are amazing…hopefully it is still there.

Mike Cialone–Staten Island, NY:thumbsup:
michaelcialone@yahoo.com

Can you cite a single magesterial document or Church teaching that says that all religions are equal? Any at all? Of course not, because none exist. Go on and use your alarmist language but the fact is that the Church has not changed her teaching in that the fulness of Truth can be found in the Catholic Church alone.

 

[straggleyway]

Hi Lev

Amazing, isn’t it?.. Erm… No, its not. If you look for a prediction or prophesy, you will find it. You need CAUSAL proof.

I’m sure I could find chapters of the bible that predict the internet, swine flu, and any other Big Global Event. I’m sure it would make me feel good. There would be certainty in life. Sure, if my god can make predictions, then ALL of my beliefs are true. Life would feel good.

BUT…

Reading a piece of text from a Bronze age writer and placing it against todays news is NOT a confirmation of prophesy.

What REALLY does amaze me is that you feel this is sufficient proof?!! Do you really, seriously believe this? As I said before, I was raised as a catholic and my parents are fairly strict catholics - but even they cant believe in the prophesy and miracles ! How can we possible take you seriously when you claim stuff like this? Its almost like believing in ghosts.

Ok, next…

How can you say “the field of Biblical archaelogy has no agreement at all, that there is evidence for a God acting on the world”?

Very easy. Read a biblical archaelogy journal. Read about biblical minimalism.

atheism.about.com/library/books/religion/bl_books_BAR01.htm

Your evidence seems to stem from YOUR OBSERVATIONS of the world. You see Israel is a modern governed state and… THEREFORE claim the prediction in your text is true. I have a problem with the “therefore”.

Here are two words that believers should never, ever forget - **CORRELATION **and CAUSALITY. I have even met some who do not know what they are.

If a text predicts an EVENT, and then EVENT A happens - that is NOT EVIDENCE that the prediction was of EVENT A!!!

You refer to a piece of text …then look at Jerulsalem…THEN SAY LOOK! PROOF! This is a total failure in logic.

Here are some examples of prophesy designed to show you how our mind works

When I roll the die, it will land on “2”. I roll the die it lands on “2”.
Do I have supernatural powers?

I go to sleep and claim it will rain exactly in 20 years. Then in 20 years it rains.
Do I have supernatural powers?

The problem is that you are SEEKING a prophesy. You need it as confirmation of what you believe. I’m sure you could list a dozen more.

However, have you ever found a prophesy in the Bible, that did not come true? If so, why do you think that was?

And FINALLY - do you believe in Hindu prophesies? This is REALLY IMPORTANT - can you work out why?

 

[shoewindow3000]

In the 17th century Our Lady appeared to a Spanish Conceptionist nun, Ven. Mother Mariana de Jesus Torres, one of the Founding Mothers of the Convent of the Immaculate Conception in Quito, Ecuador. During her life of 72 years, Mother Mariana received many apparitions and favors from Our Lady, who revealed important facts in the History of the Church. The Virgin Mary also told her to have a statue of Our Lady of Good Success made to be a protection for the whole world in the turbulent times to come.​

On December 8, 1634, the feast of the Immaculate Conception, three archangels and their Queen appeared to Mother Mariana. St. Gabriel was carrying a Ciborium filled with Hosts which Our Lady explained:
"This signifies the Most August Sacrament of the Eucharist, which will be distributed by my Catholic priests to faithful Christians belonging to the Holy Roman, Catholic and Apostolic Church, whose visible head is the Pope, the King of Christianity. His pontifical infallibility will be declared a dogma of the Faith by the same Pope chosen to proclaim the dogma of the Mystery of My Immaculate Conception. He will be persecuted and imprisoned in the Vatican by the unjust usurpation of the Pontifical States through the iniquity, envy and avarice of an earthly monarch."
This holy Pope was Blessed Pius IX, who fulfilled every prediction made by Our Lady. His body, being exhumed for beatification in 2000, was found miraculously preserved in the tomb where it had lain for more than a century. His face still showed a striking serenity in death.

Another most interesting prophecy of Our Lady: "In the 19th Century there will be a truly Catholic president, a man of character whom God Our Lord will give the palm of martyrdom on the square adjoining this Convent. He will consecrate the Republic to the Sacred Heart of My Most Holy Son, and this consecration will sustain the Catholic Religion in the years that will follow, which will be ill-fated ones for the Church. These years, during which the evil sect of Masonry will take control of the civil government – will see a cruel persecution of all religious communities, and they will also strike out violently against this one of mine."**

The “truly Catholic” president of Ecuador, Gabriel Garcia Moreno (1821-1875), consecrated the republic to the Sacred Heart of Jesus in 1873. Pope Pius IX paid him tribute as a man who had died “the death of a martyr…a victim to his Faith and Christian charity.” Gabriel Moreno’s incorrupt heart and the famous painting of Our Lady of Quito can be seen in the Cathedral of Quito.

---

Our Lady prophesied that at the end of the 19th Century and especially in the 20th Century that Satan would reign almost completely by the means of the Masonic sect. The Queen of Heaven told Mother Mariana that this battle would reach its most acute stage because of various unfaithful religious, who, “under the appearance of virtue and bad-spirited zeal, would turn upon Religion, who nourished them at her breast.” *“During this time,” *she continued, *“insomuch as this poor country will lack the Christian spirit, the Sacrament of Extreme Unction will be little esteemed. Many people will die without receiving it – either because of the negligence of their families or their false sentimentality that tries to protect the sick from seeing the gravity of their situations, or because they will rebel against the spirit of the Catholic Church, impelled by the malice of the devil. Thus many souls will be deprived of innumerable graces, consolations and the strength they need to make that great leap from time to eternity…” “As for the Sacrament of Matrimony, which symbolizes the union of Christ with His Church, it will be attacked and profaned in the fullest sense of the word. Masonry, which will then be in power, will enact iniquitous laws with the objective of doing away with this Sacrament, making it easy for everyone to live in sin, encouraging the procreation of illegitimate children born without the blessing of the Church. The Christian spirit will rapidly decay, extinguishing the precious light of Faith until if reaches the point that there will be an almost total and general corruption of customs. The effects of secular education will increase, which will be one reason for the lack of priestly and religious vocations…”
*
“The Sacred Sacrament of Holy Orders will be ridiculed, oppressed and despised. …The demon will try to persecute the Ministers of the Lord in every possible way and he will labor with cruel and subtle astuteness to deviate them from the spirit of their vocation, corrupting many of them. These corrupted priests, who will scandalize the Christian people, will incite the hatred of the bad Christians and the enemies of the Roman, Catholic and Apostolic Church to fall upon all priests. This apparent triumph of Satan will bring enormous sufferings to the good Pastors of the Church…”

…A simple humble faith in the truth of My apparitions to you, My predilect child, will be reserved for humble and fervent souls docile to the inspirations of grace, for Our Heavenly Father communicates His secrets to the simple of heart, and not to those whose hearts are inflated with pride, pretending to know what they do not, or self-satisfied with empty knowledge."

During this time, Our Lady foretold, *“the secular Clergy will leave much to be desired because priests will become careless in their sacred duties. Lacking the divine compass, they will stray from the road traced by God for the priestly ministry, and they will become attached to wealth and riches, which they will unduly strive to obtain. How the Church will suffer during this dark night! Lacking a Prelate and Father to guide them with paternal love, gentleness, strength, wisdom and prudence, many priests will lose their spirit, placing their souls in great danger. This will mark the arrival of My hour.”
*
“Therefore, clamor insistently without tiring and weep with bitter tears in the privacy of your heart, imploring our Celestial Father that, for love of the Eucharistic Heart of my Most Holy Son and His Precious Blood shed with such generosity and the profound bitterness and sufferings of His cruel Passion and Death, He might take pity on His ministers and bring to an end those Ominous times, sending to this Church the Prelate who will restore the spirit of its priests.”

 

[dnar]

1 John 2:22; Who is the liar? Whoever denies that Jesus is the Christ. Whoever denies the Father and the Son, this is the antichrist.
1 John 2:23; No one who denies the Son has the Father, but whoever confesses the Son has the Father as well.

The Quran is plain about this. God has no Son. Our Scriptures are plain about this, If you deny the Son you do not have the Father.

Any religion that denies Jesus is the Christ is the antichrist.

I can understand however why the Popes have tried in love to spread the good news of the gospel. They would get nowhere if they went over there yelling “Convert or burn in hell!”

Truth in love.

 

[straggleyway]

Dnar

“Convert or burn in hell!”

I’m happy to burn in hell. Its a bit chilly right now.

I so love this argument. Its from the middle ages - yet you are still using it - its hilarious !

Its a simple bullying tactic - either agree with me or you’ll get hurt. How unbelievably sad that you seriously believe this.

Its when I hear believers like you that I am so so content that I’m free from religion.

Although I’m not a believer, I can see that religious belief can help other. It is such a shame that you spend your time intimidating others… or at least trying too.

Take a breath. Your threat doesnt work.

I do think there was a historic character, possibly named Jesus - the research isnt quite clear. (Remember the bible is NOT a historical source - some of it is poetry!)

But I do not believe in any supernatural being that created the universe.

See?! Want to give me another threat?! Oh… go on… please?

 

[imperial]

It is nonsense and should cease immediately. During the time of the martyrs in Rome, Catholics were put to death for not offering the emperor a pinch of incense as sacrifice. Who are we to betray such a noble lineage and history?

I am currently station in Al Hillah, Iraq. Last week was some religious holiday for the shia moslems, and here on the camp they set aside a room for them. A few of the locals who are my friends asked one of my Soldiers to go into the room, burn the incense, light a candle and make a wish. Sadly enough, he did it. Nevertheless, this here is once Sergeant who would rather end up on Al Jazzera losing my head before I betray Christ.

God Bless you,
I agree, thou shall not have false Gods

 

[shoewindow3000]

Dear Straggleway,

What is your response to my post about the prophecy I posted?

---

I want to address another issue.

It is true that there is no salvation outside of Christ, through His Church.

However, this does not mean that people who don’t believe in Christ cannot be saved. Protestants (especially Evangelicals) have this view that people who don’t believe or know about Christ cannot be saved. They see God as an accountant, as if everything were black and white.

The fact is, everything is gray. There could be someone on earth who doesn’t know the Gospel, and lives in the grace of God without even knowing it. That person can be saved.
And likewise, there can be a “fake” person who claims to be a Christian, and end up not being saved.

God knows the heart. As Christ said to Moses: “I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.”​

I want to say even** one more **thing:

I know you don’t believe in Satan, but he may very much be responsible for many of the “miracles” claimed by people in other faiths. I mean, not only does it serve to give validity to their faiths, but it makes skeptics see Christianity as no different than them.
(A skeptic will say, “if they claim miracles too, why should yours be any special?”)

 

[straggleyway]

Hi shoewindow

Well, I’m sure you have more examples? First, it is interesting the way you write. It is a bit like prose, like poetry. You obviously have a great deal of passion for your faith, it shines through. Thats great though - I think one of the positive aspects of a religion is that it gives people purpose in their life. (However, it is certainly possible to find purpose through many different things in life.)

I almost liken the experience of being religious to being in love - to me it is so similar. I’m sure you feel these predictions can be used that Catholicism is therefore…“TRUE”.

Well,… unfortunately, I dont share the view. When Mariana was on that hill, did anyone else see anything? Was it independently verified?

The next prediction - “In the 19th Century there will be a truly Catholic president…” did she give the name Gabriel Garcia Moreno? I’m forced to wonder why not? If she has this link with a god how come she didnt get his name?

You see, these predictions are just not enough. I have discussed with evangelical protestants and they love the idea of healing. One told me a blind man was cured in his church. He was convinced of it. I still dont believe that as it needs to be validated by measurement and research. Maybe his sight would have returned anyway, even if he wasnt at a church?!!

So, I’m sure you have great deal of feeling in these stories - I respect that. But theynt just stories to me. Just the same as the Hindus have their predictions. Come to think of it, you didnt answer my question - do you believer the Hindu prophesies which have been validated just like your own?