If CCL instructors were presenting to an audience that saw NFP as their only option maybe they would follow the strategy of, “we know NFP is awful and not terribly effective but it’s your only option.” You have to realize that most instructors only rarely instruct people who intend on using NFP. Most of the couples who receive instruction on NFP are there because they are required to take it as part of marriage prep.I agree with what you’re saying. But NFP isn’t exactly a product to be sold. It’s a morally acceptable option for family planning provided by the Church. People shouldn’t have to be “sold” NFP. They should use it because it is approved by the Church and contraception isn’t.
It’s not that simple, though, I do realize…
But they do need to sell it. And the vast majority of people aren’t buying it. Especially Catholics. They don’t tend to have waiting lists for classes in most diocese. Have you not heard all the people saying they can’t even find instructors where they are? My sister teaches Creighton in her diocese. Most of her clients are non Catholics looking for an alternative to the pill. The couples at her church or any of the nearby parishes have never signed up for classes despite being listed in the bulletins each week. The majority of her clients are referred by local midwives and are non Catholics. They are willing to pay quite a bit to learn Creighton. The Catholics in the diocese are offered the same service at a fraction of the price, and she is willing to teach them for free, but she averages two ladies a year call her through local parishes. Catholics just aren’t buying it. Non Catholics seeking natural forms of birth control are calling her on average three ladies each week. She also has several non Catholics sign up due to infertility, seeking to get pregnant. She has never had a Catholic client sign up trying for a baby. She’s been teaching Creighton since 1991. She isn’t new to this. She isn’t unknown. People just aren’t buying it.I agree with what you’re saying. But NFP isn’t exactly a product to be sold. It’s a morally acceptable option for family planning provided by the Church. People shouldn’t have to be “sold” NFP. They should use it because it is approved by the Church and contraception isn’t.
It’s not that simple, though, I do realize…
I understand that, but you’re missing my point. The message shouldn’t be, “Use NFP because it’s awesome.” The message should be, “Use NFP because it is not a sin, while contraception is a sin.” See the difference?But they do need to sell it. And the vast majority of people aren’t buying it. Especially Catholics. They don’t tend to have waiting lists for classes in most diocese. Have you not heard all the people saying they can’t even find instructors where they are? My sister teaches Creighton in her diocese. Most of her clients are non Catholics looking for an alternative to the pill. The couples at her church or any of the nearby parishes have never signed up for classes despite being listed in the bulletins each week. The majority of her clients are referred by local midwives and are non Catholics. They are willing to pay quite a bit to learn Creighton. The Catholics in the diocese are offered the same service at a fraction of the price, and she is willing to teach them for free, but she averages two ladies a year call her through local parishes. Catholics just aren’t buying it. Non Catholics seeking natural forms of birth control are calling her on average three ladies each week. She also has several non Catholics sign up due to infertility, seeking to get pregnant. She has never had a Catholic client sign up trying for a baby. She’s been teaching Creighton since 1991. She isn’t new to this. She isn’t unknown. People just aren’t buying it.
Well, you are right - and you’re not right.I agree with what you’re saying. But NFP isn’t exactly a product to be sold. It’s a morally acceptable option for family planning provided by the Church. People shouldn’t have to be “sold” NFP. They should use it because it is approved by the Church and contraception isn’t.
It’s not that simple, though, I do realize…
People don’t believe that to be true. That’s why they aren’t lining up to learn it. Catholics don’t “want the church in their bedrooms” and don’t believe ABC is sinful. Telling then otherwise has had absolutely not impact since the 1960’s. I’m not missing your point. I won’t ever use NFP again because it doesn’t work for me. But I completely understand why they are marketing it and why they are attempting to sell it in the ways they do.I understand that, but you’re missing my point. The message shouldn’t be, “Use NFP because it’s awesome.” The message should be, “Use NFP because it is not a sin, unlike contraception.” See the difference?
I see what you’re saying. But also please read my edited post. Anytime something is taken to the extreme, it causes a problem. I’m referring to people who are trying to do NFP and are struggling and NFP instructors just tell them they are at fault. Or the idea that if you’re having a hard time in your marriage because you can only have relations once every three months, the very simple solution is to “just find other ways to be close.” It’s not that easy. God created husbands and wives to long to be together in that special way. These kinds of struggles should be met with understanding, compassion, and acknowledgement that NFP isn’t a fairy tale for everyone.People don’t believe that to be true. That’s why they aren’t lining up to learn it. Catholics don’t “want the church in their bedrooms” and don’t believe ABC is sinful. Telling then otherwise has had absolutely not impact since the 1960’s. I’m not missing your point. I won’t ever use NFP again because it doesn’t work for me. But I completely understand why they are marketing it and why they are attempting to sell it in the ways they do.
Sorry, the rest wasn’t up when I quoted you before.I see what you’re saying. But also please read my edited post. Anytime something is taken to the extreme, it causes a problem. I’m referring to people who are trying to do NFP and are struggling and NFP instructors just tell them they are at fault. Or the idea that if you’re having a hard time in your marriage because you can only have relations once every three months, the very simple solution is to “just find other ways to be close.” It’s not that easy. God created husbands and wives to long to be together in that special way. These kinds of struggles should be met with understanding, compassion, and acknowledgement that NFP isn’t a fairy tale for everyone.
Yes, tell everyone about the benefits. But also tell about the drawbacks. You can do so without painting a picture of gloom and doom. And if people are having trouble, exhibit compassion, not blame.
For what it’s worth, I’ve usually appreciated your participation in NFP posts.Well, you are right - and you’re not right.
NFP is indeed a product that needs to be sold to people. Most people are cafeteria Catholics - just read the surveys. When they are in the figurative cafeteria line, we want them to select a big helping of Church teaching on fertility, AND, we don’t want them to bring it back later saying it’s not what they ordered AT ALL.
My wife and I are getting sorta tired of the Church, at least at our parish level, taking the attitude that we have to do certain things or “go to hell” (no ABC, weekly Mass attendance, support of the parish) so the parish can be as mediocre as it wants, since the parishioners have to do it no matter what. That is driving part of my frustration on this thread.
If the Church wants better compliance with Humana Vitae, they need to convince people with truth and compassion, not puppies and rainbows. Or, worse yet, silence.
This is interesting. If your parish is like that I would think it would make national news. When I lived in Indiana we had a great priest who discussed being open to life a lot but I don’t think NFP ever came out of his mouth. Much less ABC puts you in hell. I wish more people actually framed it that way. Here’s why. NFP is “marketed”. It is sold as the modern snake oil. The cure to all your sexual and spousal woes. People say it must be done so that people will use it. Ok. Then why is the marketing wing of nfp, CCL, such a huge failure? Nfp is dying. At least where I am because one has to lie and sugar coat when the alterative (ABC) is such a sweeter easier lie. People should not use nfp because if it’s magical powers to cure all sexual frustrations, but rather because nfp is the MERCIFUL alternative that the church provides. The norm is sexual relations, the concession is nfp.Well, you are right - and you’re not right.
NFP is indeed a product that needs to be sold to people. Most people are cafeteria Catholics - just read the surveys. When they are in the figurative cafeteria line, we want them to select a big helping of Church teaching on fertility, AND, we don’t want them to bring it back later saying it’s not what they ordered AT ALL.
My wife and I are getting sorta tired of the Church, at least at our parish level, taking the attitude that we have to do certain things or “go to hell” (no ABC, weekly Mass attendance, support of the parish) so the parish can be as mediocre as it wants, since the parishioners have to do it no matter what. That is driving part of my frustration on this thread.
If the Church wants better compliance with Humana Vitae, they need to convince people with truth and compassion, not puppies and rainbows. Or, worse yet, silence.
I’m so sorry for what you’ve been through. It is situations like yours I was referring to in my posts. :hug3:Sorry, the rest wasn’t up when I quoted you before.
NFP can be destructive. I’ve said many times it nearly destroyed my marriage. It wreaked havoc on me spiritually. I wasn’t given support from my instructor at all. I didn’t feel comfortable having my sister be my instructor–that would just be uncomfortable for us both. Kind if like having your mom or dad or even distant cousin be your doctor. It’s not a good idea and borders in being unethical. I think it needs to be admitted by the instructors, the Church, and general proponents of NFP that it isn’t possible for all women to successfully use NFP simply because their body won’t cooperate. Just as some ladies can avoid having babies with minimal milk production or pumping even and others, like me, can be exclusively nursing twins and three times a day a toddler as well and still have less than 18 months before I’m giving birth again, some women are going to get pregnant during “safe” times of her cycle. Some ladies have no external signs of ovulation. Some ladies ovulate more than once in a cycle. Yes, some ladies aren’t like the textbook says we should be. It should be admitted that it’s hard on some couples but it’s also impossible for others. What suggestions do people have for those of us that it is impossible for? All I’ve ever gotten is accusations of falsifying my chart or lying about when I’ve had sex which is the same as accusing me if adultery figuring since my husband isn’t even on the same continent as I am during the time I must have been fertile. My husband has been accused if being a sex manic who won’t take no for any reason and that he is unable to control himself. How are those things supposed to make us continue with NFP? Then we hear how is wrong to continue to have children in poverty, how overpopulated the world is, that it’s selfish and irresponsible to have more than three kids max, etc. Still, no one has a solution other than abstinence (NFP advocates) or ABC (everyone else). That’s why so many don’t agree that NFP is God’s mercy and ABC us evil. They are market essentially the same way with the same goal in mind. There is no clear distinction made between them. They are used with the same mindset. That’s the truth that no one wants to admit.
NFP isn’t very merciful when every time a couple has an issue with it they are ridiculed and told it’s their fault it’s not doing what people are told it is supposed to do. That’s the harm in pushing it as a fool proof form of birth control (96%-99.99999% effective?) instead of a way of living a life rooted in the will of God.This is interesting. If your parish is like that I would think it would make national news. When I lived in Indiana we had a great priest who discussed being open to life a lot but I don’t think NFP ever came out of his mouth. Much less ABC puts you in hell. I wish more people actually framed it that way. Here’s why. NFP is “marketed”. It is sold as the modern snake oil. The cure to all your sexual and spousal woes. People say it must be done so that people will use it. Ok. Then why is the marketing wing of nfp, CCL, such a huge failure? Nfp is dying. At least where I am because one has to lie and sugar coat when the alterative (ABC) is such a sweeter easier lie. People should not use nfp because if it’s magical powers to cure all sexual frustrations, but rather because nfp is the MERCIFUL alternative that the church provides. The norm is sexual relations, the concession is nfp.
In this case, I think “merciful” just means it’s an alternative to complete abstinence in marriage. But, as we’ve said, even that is not necessarily true for those for whom NFP doesn’t work.NFP isn’t very merciful when every time a couple has an issue with it they are ridiculed and told it’s their fault it’s not doing what people are told it is supposed to do. That’s the harm in pushing it as a fool proof form of birth control (96%-99.99999% effective?) instead of a way of living a life rooted in the will of God.
Yes, but that’s not the marketing and the marketing is what draws people in. I think we are saying the same thing here. I truly believe NFP works well for the people God wants it to work for. I know many couples (Protestants mainly) that use absolutely no form of birth control and have fewer, “better spaced” pregnancies than me and several others I know using NFP. I know people with repeated NFP babies and repeated ABC babies. The only people that are made to feel guilty for their “failure” are the NFP users. And usually the proponents of NFP are the ones that throw the first stone.In this case, I think “merciful” just means it’s an alternative to complete abstinence in marriage. But, as we’ve said, even that is not necessarily true for those for whom NFP doesn’t work.
Exactly. I agree with everything you said here.Yes, but that’s not the marketing and the marketing is what draws people in. I think we are saying the same thing here. I truly believe NFP works well for the people God wants it to work for. I know many couples (Protestants mainly) that use absolutely no form of birth control and have fewer, “better spaced” pregnancies than me and several others I know using NFP. I know people with repeated NFP babies and repeated ABC babies. The only people that are made to feel guilty for their “failure” are the NFP users. And usually the proponents of NFP are the ones that throw the first stone.
Abstaining is the only way for me to assure avoiding pregnancy. Somehow that is also seen as an attack against NFP. I have had an NFP dr, two instructors and several posters here on CAF through PM’s tell me that I am scrupulous in matters of sexuality because of my “mistaken belief” that NFP won’t work for me. Despite the fact that I have 12 years of it never working for me. Including 7 years of using a monitor as an aid. It is apparently wrong to choose to joyfully babies as they come because that’s scrupulous and against Church teaching. It is wrong to us ABC because it’s intrinsically evil (which I agree with 100%). It is scrupulous and making yourself a martyr if you choose to abstain COMPLETELY during marriage in any reason except a death sentence. What is a couple supposed to do? No matter what we choose we are wrong.
Hoosier, You missed my initial point. The attitude I see among many is that, since you have to attend Mass weekly, use NFP, give to the parish building fund (to build a new church the pastor said we didn’t need but is building anyway), we aren’t going to convince you to do it or give you resources or help in any way. Just do it or go to hell.This is interesting. If your parish is like that I would think it would make national news. When I lived in Indiana we had a great priest who discussed being open to life a lot but I don’t think NFP ever came out of his mouth. Much less ABC puts you in hell. I wish more people actually framed it that way. Here’s why. NFP is “marketed”. It is sold as the modern snake oil. The cure to all your sexual and spousal woes. People say it must be done so that people will use it. Ok.
It’s a fail/ure precisely because there is NO church marketing wing for NFP. There are diocesan family life offices. CCL is a joke, and not associated with the Church. They marketed STM to Catholics, but you had to be an uber-super catholic to use it. Their rhetoric was stifling. We learned in 89 from a beautiful couple who were very nice. This was way before the Kipleys “left”.But, I can see why a normal pew potato would run screaming from a class.Then why is the marketing wing of nfp, CCL, such a huge failure? Nfp is dying. At least where I am because one has to lie and sugar coat when the alterative (ABC) is such a sweeter easier lie. People should not use nfp because if it’s magical powers to cure all sexual frustrations, but rather because nfp is the MERCIFUL alternative that the church provides. The norm is sexual relations, the concession is nfp.
I took NFP classes many years ago. I had what our instructor called “a difficult cycle to track.” While trying to get the hang of NFP we conceived a baby…he’s an awesome kid. During that time I realized I did not want to use NFP, I was only doing it because others thought I had “enough” kids and it was the “responsible” thing to do. Once I got my mind clear of the need to try to meet others expectations, I gladly discarded NFP and embraced a come what/who may attitude to my fertility. I was never one who needed NFP except for a short time and we did a very strict NFP lifestyle…almost a complete abstinence.NFP isn’t very merciful when every time a couple has an issue with it they are ridiculed and told it’s their fault it’s not doing what people are told it is supposed to do. That’s the harm in pushing it as a fool proof form of birth control (96%-99.99999% effective?) instead of a way of living a life rooted in the will of God.
It does not have to be declared ex cathedra to be infallible. It was infallible even before Humanae Vitae. Those that disagree with it are placing their souls in great jeopardy. God Bless, MemawFor many people the only method of family planning they are aware of is either hormonal birth control or barrier contraception. Many people are unaware of NFP or have a poor understanding of it or little confidence in it. Many of them feel that they are being given the choice between controlling their reproductive system or just constantly having babies non-stop. The choice for them is obvious. For those who are more aware of NFP, many realize that it requires more sacrifice and diligence than other family planning methods. It is more than popping a pill or slipping on a condom, it involves checking, charting, and analyzing. It’s work. And it also requires abstinence if you are trying to avoid. Abstinence is not usually seen in a positive light these days.
There are plenty of people even within the Catholic Church who would disagree with that infallible teaching…
My understanding is that Humanae Vitae, or at least its material concerning contraception, is official church teaching, meaning that either the bishops together have infallibly decided it or the pope has declared it ex cathedra. Since church teaching cannot change, its teaching on contraception ought to be considered infallible. Concerning Galileo, the amount of misinformation surrounding that particular case is pretty astounding. Galileo was not contradicting any official church teaching. Here is a tract on the matter:
catholic.com/tracts/the-galileo-controversy
You had a great instructor. There really does need to be more of them. My sister is pretty much that way. She is infertile but teaches Creighton. Unfortunately she has never been able to conceive but that’s part of the witness she carries into her classes. It’s God’s will and she’s accepted that. She starts each orientation class with herself and me as contradictory examples of how not every woman will have desired results, and learning to accept that and find peace in living out God’s will for us is a big part of finding the beauty in life. That’s what is missing in this whole NFP thing. People forget that we aren’t just statistics on paper. We are living, breathing and feeling people that were uniquely created by God in His image–and He is as much a contradiction as my sister and I are. Learning to read His will for our lives and learning to accept that plan is heartbreaking and often scary enough on it’s own without having others make it harder.I took NFP classes many years ago. I had what our instructor called “a difficult cycle to track.” While trying to get the hang of NFP we conceived a baby…he’s an awesome kid. During that time I realized I did not want to use NFP, I was only doing it because others thought I had “enough” kids and it was the “responsible” thing to do. Once I got my mind clear of the need to try to meet others expectations, I gladly discarded NFP and embraced a come what/who may attitude to my fertility. I was never one who needed NFP except for a short time and we did a very strict NFP lifestyle…almost a complete abstinence.
That all said, my original instructor told me that I would make a great instructor. She said it is those that struggle with crazy cycles, and lack of clear symptoms that make the best instructors. They know the system best.
Have any of you who struggled or still struggle using NFP ever considered becoming an instructor? GIving a hand to a Catholic sister who needs your help? We may have less people feeling like they are being called failures. For my part, I try to help those who are embracing the come-who-may attitude.
God bless.
I think you are going through a mini crisis of faith, Paul. You are looking back and seeing the threat of hell as the main impetus for your obedience but since Vatican II, seminaries haven’t taught this way of preaching. You couldn’t possibly have sustained your commitment to periodic abstinence as part of NFP without the grace of a deeper faith. Something has made you shift and its probably not to do with the Church which has always had its human aspects right from the beginning.Hoosier, You missed my initial point. The attitude I see among many is that, since you have to attend Mass weekly, use NFP, give to the parish building fund (to build a new church the pastor said we didn’t need but is building anyway), we aren’t going to convince you to do it or give you resources or help in any way. Just do it or go to hell.