Why do most people ignore the Church's teaching on contraception?

[gardenswithkids]

… ‘Large family ism’ as in people feeling superior for having large families and looking down on the rest… has never really been a feature in Australian catholic life. I’ve only encountered that in the last few years on this board thankfully. So when someone suggests that small families are just selfish… I actually feel more offended for my Mother than myself. …

I rarely even encounter it on these boards! More commonly I encounter on these boards people who think that those with large families feel superior to them. And then I encounter people who get defensive because they took offense at something. And then it goes downhill from there.

My own mother was a faithful Catholic who had two children and worked full time and sent us to Catholic schools. And I never encountered anyone at Catholic school who looked down on our family size. And I don’t look down on Catholics with small families --or Catholics with many children or no children for that matter.

This thread! How did the conversation devolve into this?
Communicating over the internet has it’s limitations.

 

[LongingSoul]

At times we (speaking of my wife and I) need to be called on things–perhaps it would be more pleasant coming from a spiritual director than on a public forum–but then we choose to come here and ask questions or offer our opinions in response to them.

Spiritual directors don’t suggest to people that they should have more children! Or to challenge themselves according to what the directors personal opinion of their flaw is! Spiritual directors do the opposite. They help people to dispose themselves to the Lords will through contemplation and to listen for His guidance. It would be completely unCatholic and unethical for them to judge them on family size and suggest they think more about that!

 

[PaulinVA]

I’ll go with option a) because it’s ineffective. If someone were to tell me they used NFP to limit their family to only two children I just wouldn’t believe them. I wouldn’t expect any method as susceptible to human error as NFP to work for any extended period of time. It’s just not the way people work.

BUT, the point of my post is that it IS effective. At least for us. Used it 100% successfully to achieve pregnancy and to avoid pregnancy.

I feel for people who were faithful and used an NFP method and had more children than they intended.

 

[MarkInOregon]

If someone says kids are hard work… why do you think they are lying or maybe you think they are weak… simply because you don’t find it hard? Don’t you believe that people have different strengths and capacities of coping and different circumstances to survive with?

Your response of “I don’t find it hard. I have a better attitude than you. I have a better understanding of the meaning of ‘work’”. It’s a fundamentally judgemental attitude to have. By you argument, you set the bar of doability right at your level and are incredulous than anyone might achieve lower. Don’t you see that as judgemental?

I don’t even know where to start. 1.) No, I wouldn’t think they are lying or weak. 2. ) I never said that raising kids wasn’t hard or that it wasn’t challenging — I said I didn’t view it as “work”, and I further acknowledged that we might have a different definition of work. 3.) Yes – we all have different strengths and capacities. 4.) My response was not “I don’t find it hard” – I clearly acknowledged that it was hard and challenging. My response was not “I have a better attitude than you” I have a different attitude–or rather a different view of work–I didn’t say it’s a better view–I’m telling you that if I had the other view–I’d be tired and worn out. My response was not “I have a better understanding of the meaning of ‘work’”. I have a different understanding --that doesn’t mean it’s better. 5.) I wasn’t advancing an argument–I wasn’t setting a bar of doability at any level–I’m not really incredulous and I wasn’t thinking of it in terms of a competition with various levels to achieve. I was simply explaining how I view it–something that someone found unrelatable. I was attempting to make it more relatable not advance some superior view of parenting.

Apparently it’s O.K. for some to take what I said and say they find it unrelatable and others can cheer them on with a yes, but if I find the so much work (and I acknowledge some sarcasm there) position unrelatable–and go on to explain how I view it – I’m making all kinds of value judgments and saying I’m oh so much better. Really? I’m simply explaining how I view what was found so unrelatable–I see your response to that as judgmental. You read so much into it. Perhaps, as you pointed out to MomaMary8 earlier with regards to a statement she made, the way you read others posts “is just an expression of your experience of family”?

The peace of Christ,
Mark

 

[Thorolfr]

I really object to this quote: “Practically every young family has two or three children. I doubt that they are practicing natural family planning.”

Many of our young CAF families have one, two or three children.

I’m sure that Fr. Daly’s doubts that most young families in his parish are using NFP is also based on his conversation with the Catholic doctor: “I once asked a doctor in my parish, a very devout Catholic, what percentage of his Catholic patients were practicing some form of artificial birth control. ‘Do you think it is as high as 80 percent?’ I asked. He thought for a moment and replied, ‘No, more like 90 percent.’”

 

[Xantippe]

I’m sure that Fr. Daly’s doubts that most young families in his parish are using NFP is also based on his conversation with the Catholic doctor: “I once asked a doctor in my parish, a very devout Catholic, what percentage of his Catholic patients were practicing some form of artificial birth control. ‘Do you think it is as high as 80 percent?’ I asked. He thought for a moment and replied, ‘No, more like 90 percent.’”

So, the weekly church-goers have stats identical to the doctor’s patients?

Why should that be the case?

 

[LongingSoul]

So, the weekly church-goers have stats identical to the doctor’s patients?

Why should that be the case?

Unless he is a doctor that only takes practicing Catholics in his clinic. I doubt that the anti discrimination authorities would allow a doctor to ask about the Catholic practices of a patient to be able to select his patients though.

 

[Burt_Macklin]

BUT, the point of my post is that it IS effective. At least for us. Used it 100% successfully to achieve pregnancy and to avoid pregnancy.

I feel for people who were faithful and used an NFP method and had more children than they intended.

The typical use failure rate for NFP is pretty high, around 12-24 pregnancy rate over one year of use. I imagine it is a bit higher for young lovers in their sexual prime who have no particular reason to avoid getting pregnant. That’s why so many people included the caveat that NFP is effective… if you have a serious reason to avoid. I really don’t believe it’s possible for a healthy and relatively wealthy young couple to use NFP to limit their family to 2 children. Too many sources for user error and young lovers are never the most cautious people in the world.

 

[LongingSoul]

I don’t even know where to start. 1.) No, I wouldn’t think they are lying or weak. 2. ) I never said that raising kids wasn’t hard or that it wasn’t challenging — I said I didn’t view it as “work”, and I further acknowledged that we might have a different definition of work. 3.) Yes – we all have different strengths and capacities. 4.) My response was not “I don’t find it hard” – I clearly acknowledged that it was hard and challenging. My response was not “I have a better attitude than you” I have a different attitude–or rather a different view of work–I didn’t say it’s a better view–I’m telling you that if I had the other view–I’d be tired and worn out. My response was not “I have a better understanding of the meaning of ‘work’”. I have a different understanding --that doesn’t mean it’s better. 5.) I wasn’t advancing an argument–I wasn’t setting a bar of doability at any level–I’m not really incredulous and I wasn’t thinking of it in terms of a competition with various levels to achieve. I was simply explaining how I view it–something that someone found unrelatable. I was attempting to make it more relatable not advance some superior view of parenting.

Apparently it’s O.K. for some to take what I said and say they find it unrelatable and others can cheer them on with a yes, but if I find the so much work (and I acknowledge some sarcasm there) position unrelatable–and go on to explain how I view it – I’m making all kinds of value judgments and saying I’m oh so much better. Really? I’m simply explaining how I view what was found so unrelatable–I see your response to that as judgmental. You read so much into it. Perhaps, as you pointed out to MomaMary8 earlier with regards to a statement she made, the way you read others posts “is just an expression of your experience of family”?

The peace of Christ,
Mark

What’s completely missing from your perspective is that people aren’t all the same with the same personality, gifts, talents, upbringing, trials. For example, a young mother with anxiety disorder and agoraphobia, trying to raise children… getting them to the doctor, doing the grocery shopping, getting them to playgroup and all the other necessary activities involved in raising kids. Do you still say that its just about her attitude or interpretation of work? I’m not speaking ideologically when I answer to comments like yours. I’m speaking from experience of my own life and from the years that I worked in an environment of family counselling and really seeing what people struggle with in their day to day lives.

I would probably have felt as righteous as you do had I not been exposed to the realities of people broken and at their low ebbs. What it did for me was to feel blessed for having the good things in my life that I have and obliged to be understanding and compassionate towards those who have less.

 

[MarkInOregon]

Here’s a rather personal question, and you needn’t answer it if you choose not to. Did you stay at home with the kids?

DH also doesn’t see parenting as work. But then, he comes home an hour or two before bedtime, and gets to be a superhero in his kid’s eyes because he plays with her for much of that time and hasn’t been home all day. On the other hand, I’m the one who wages the battles over eating/sleeping/behavior/et all for 10 hours every day while being constantly interrupted in the course of non-kid work (laundry, floors, etc), so yep, I’m exhausted by the end of the day, and just want bedtime to hit so that I can put my feet up and relax.

Now, DH doesn’t belittle what I deal with all day, and he’s very appreciative of what I do, but he also doesn’t quite understand my perspective of “I’m stressed because I’m trying to clean up the kitchen after dinner but the kid won’t stop crying because I’m not playing with her, I’ve been doing this all day and I am SO DONE” because to him, spending time with DD is playtime, not “I’m trying to get all this done and she keeps interrupting me” time. Plus, he’s had adult interaction all day, the ability to use the bathroom when he wants and by himself, and a lunch hour wherein no one’s grabbing his food, screaming at him, or refusing to eat the lunch he prepared for them and is responsible for getting into them.

Fair question. Good question. (Though I think many here would be offended by it–especially if I asked it). It’s changed over the years as our situation has changed. Until our last child was born eight years ago (hard to believe its been that long)–we both worked full-time outside the home. So neither one of us was home with them all day. Most of the year it was my job to make the incredibly stress drive across town in work hour traffic to get them picked up at daycare and after-school care–two stops within a certain time or those fees started piling up. At home I had to get dinner ready, monitor/assist with homework as my wife didn’t get off work until between 7 and 8 pm. I did evenings she did mornings–getting them ready for school. And we both got them to bed. She worked a couple of Saturdays a month–so I had those Saturdays which usually meant cleaning house and catching up on the laundry. Tax season just complicated matters because of my long hours. Those were stressful years but I still didn’t view them as work (as I said I probably have a different view/definition of work).

After that until this year my wife stayed home with them, and now she’s aiding at their school full-time. While we’ve had more financial stress (she made 2/3 of our income) it’s been better for our children and for her health. Even with her home I was still cooking some nights, helping with homework and dishes and laundry and cleaning. And now that she is working again --though the hours are great–goes to school with the kids and comes home with them–I still do some cooking–depending on what we’re having, dishes clean up, laundry and homework. It takes a joint effort. I think we’ve always had a pretty fair division of labor, and I am pretty sure my wife would agree with that. It’s not like I come home and play with the kids and send them off to bed. In our house there’s usually a homework battle or two to fight. Tonight my wife has a pastoral council meeting so I’ll be on my own with the kids for a while.

Don’t know if that answers your question or sheds any light.

The peace of Christ,
Mark

 

[Xantippe]

What’s completely missing from your perspective is that people aren’t all the same with the same personality, gifts, talents, upbringing, trials. For example, a young mother with anxiety disorder and agoraphobia, trying to raise children… getting them to the doctor, doing the grocery shopping, getting them to playgroup and all the other necessary activities involved in raising kids. Do you still say that its just about her attitude or interpretation of work? I’m not speaking ideologically when I answer to comments like yours. I’m speaking from experience of my own life and from the years that I worked in an environment of family counselling and really seeing what people struggle with in their day to day lives.

I would probably have felt as righteous as you do had I not been exposed to the realities of people broken and at their low ebbs. What it did for me was to feel blessed for having the good things in my life that I have and obliged to be understanding and compassionate towards those who have less.

Yes.

Anything that has to be done whether you like it or not is work.

 

[Xantippe]

Fair question. Good question. (Though I think many here would be offended by it–especially if I asked it). It’s changed over the years as our situation has changed. Until our last child was born eight years ago (hard to believe its been that long)–we both worked full-time outside the home. So neither one of us was home with them all day. Most of the year it was my job to make the incredibly stress drive across town in work hour traffic to get them picked up at daycare and after-school care–two stops within a certain time or those fees started piling up. At home I had to get dinner ready, monitor/assist with homework as my wife didn’t get off work until between 7 and 8 pm. I did evenings she did mornings–getting them ready for school. And we both got them to bed. She worked a couple of Saturdays a month–so I had those Saturdays which usually meant cleaning house and catching up on the laundry. Tax season just complicated matters because of my long hours. Those were stressful years but I still didn’t view them as work (as I said I probably have a different view/definition of work).

After that until this year my wife stayed home with them, and now she’s aiding at their school full-time. While we’ve had more financial stress (she made 2/3 of our income) it’s been better for our children and for her health. Even with her home I was still cooking some nights, helping with homework and dishes and laundry and cleaning. And now that she is working again --though the hours are great–goes to school with the kids and comes home with them–I still do some cooking–depending on what we’re having, dishes clean up, laundry and homework. It takes a joint effort. I think we’ve always had a pretty fair division of labor, and I am pretty sure my wife would agree with that. It’s not like I come home and play with the kids and send them off to bed. In our house there’s usually a homework battle or two to fight. Tonight my wife has a pastoral council meeting so I’ll be on my own with the kids for a while.

Don’t know if that answers your question or sheds any light.

The peace of Christ,
Mark

That’s a very different set-up than a lot of us are talking about.

I’m 40, I’ve been SAHM for 13+ years and the youngest of our three children is 3. I have had children in diapers for 10 of those years (thanks, autism!). I’ve had a good run, and our youngest was eagerly anticipated and is much loved, but at this point, I feel old, tired and fat, a little bored and lonely, and would like to move on to something different. I’d like to have adults other than my husband to talk to and to have a little money to spend on stuff like Weight Watchers and other basic personal maintenance stuff.

I also feel like I’m not quite as good a toddler/preschooler mom as I used to be (although I think I’m still OK with babies and not bad with school kids). There’s a famous bit of viral humor on the subject of first versus second versus third children, and I’m afraid I’m starting to resemble it A LOT:

4nursing.com/humor-parents-parenting-children-having-your-first-second-third-child.html

At this point, I’m pretty much counting down the days until Baby Girl goes to three-day-a-week pre-K (she does 2-day-a-week parents’ day out). That’s not fantastic, but that’s where we are.

My husband is tired, too.

 

[LongingSoul]

Fair question. Good question. (Though I think many here would be offended by it–especially if I asked it). It’s changed over the years as our situation has changed. Until our last child was born eight years ago (hard to believe its been that long)–we both worked full-time outside the home. So neither one of us was home with them all day. Most of the year it was my job to make the incredibly stress drive across town in work hour traffic to get them picked up at daycare and after-school care–two stops within a certain time or those fees started piling up. At home I had to get dinner ready, monitor/assist with homework as my wife didn’t get off work until between 7 and 8 pm. I did evenings she did mornings–getting them ready for school. And we both got them to bed. She worked a couple of Saturdays a month–so I had those Saturdays which usually meant cleaning house and catching up on the laundry. Tax season just complicated matters because of my long hours. Those were stressful years but I still didn’t view them as work (as I said I probably have a different view/definition of work).

After that until this year my wife stayed home with them, and now she’s aiding at their school full-time. While we’ve had more financial stress (she made 2/3 of our income) it’s been better for our children and for her health. Even with her home I was still cooking some nights, helping with homework and dishes and laundry and cleaning. And now that she is working again --though the hours are great–goes to school with the kids and comes home with them–I still do some cooking–depending on what we’re having, dishes clean up, laundry and homework. It takes a joint effort. I think we’ve always had a pretty fair division of labor, and I am pretty sure my wife would agree with that. It’s not like I come home and play with the kids and send them off to bed. In our house there’s usually a homework battle or two to fight. Tonight my wife has a pastoral council meeting so I’ll be on my own with the kids for a while.

Don’t know if that answers your question or sheds any light.

The peace of Christ,
Mark

But doesn’t it occur to you that putting your kids full time in day care and after school care relieves a huge amount of child rearing stress? I have been a stay at home Mum since I was pregnant with my first and we’ve lived that time on one wage. We re-drew on our house loan to pay for Catholic education and that means 3 years after the last has left school, we are still technically paying off school fees. I felt it important that I raise my children myself and that was a good instinct because two of them were later diagnosed autistic spectrum. Those two now 21 and 25 are really thriving in life and contributing citizens.

I would never judge you for putting yours in daycare. That to me is none of my business. But don’t you understand that when you say that you found the childrearing work wasn’t really work in your sense… that your experience of being away from the children in an adult world of paying work for the majority of their lives, gives you a markedly different perspective to someone doing stay at home duties 24/7?

 

[Xantippe]

But doesn’t it occur to you that putting your kids full time in day care and after school care relieves a huge amount of child rearing stress? I have been a stay at home Mum since I was pregnant with my first and we’ve lived that time on one wage. We re-drew on our house loan to pay for Catholic education and that means 3 years after the last has left school, we are still technically paying off school fees. I felt it important that I raise my children myself and that was a good instinct because two of them were later diagnosed autistic spectrum. Those two now 21 and 25 are really thriving in life and contributing citizens.

I would never judge you for putting yours in daycare. That to me is none of my business. But don’t you understand that when you say that you found the childrearing work wasn’t really work in your sense… that your experience of being away from the children in an adult world of paying work for the majority of their lives, gives you a markedly different perspective to someone doing stay at home duties 24/7?

Right.

 

[Xantippe]

Related:

“Non-employed women with young children at home are more likely than women with young children at home who are employed for pay to report experiencing sadness and anger a lot of the day “yesterday.” Stay-at-home moms are also much more likely to report having ever been diagnosed with depression than employed moms. Employed moms are about as emotionally well-off as working women who do not have children at home.”

gallup.com/poll/154685/Stay-Home-Moms-Report-Depression-Sadness-Anger.aspx?utm_source=alert&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=syndication&utm_content=morelink&utm_term=All%20Gallup%20Headlines

28% of SAHMs report depression, while only 17% of employed moms do, which is identical to the level reported by employed women with no children at home.

“Stay-at-home moms also lag behind employed moms in terms of their daily positive emotions: They are less likely to say they smiled or laughed a lot, learned something interesting, and experienced enjoyment and happiness “yesterday.” Additionally, they are less likely than employed moms to rate their lives highly enough to be considered “thriving.””

Some of the differences are not very large, but depression is a veritable plague among SAHMs.

 

[MomaMary8]

If someone says kids are hard work… why do you think they are lying or maybe you think they are weak… simply because you don’t find it hard? Don’t you believe that people have different strengths and capacities of coping and different circumstances to survive with?

Your response of “I don’t find it hard. I have a better attitude than you. I have a better understanding of the meaning of ‘work’”. It’s a fundamentally judgemental attitude to have. By you argument, you set the bar of doability right at your level and are incredulous than anyone might achieve lower. Don’t you see that as judgemental?

But doesn’t it occur to you that putting your kids full time in day care and after school care relieves a huge amount of child rearing stress? I have been a stay at home Mum since I was pregnant with my first and we’ve lived that time on one wage. We re-drew on our house loan to pay for Catholic education and that means 3 years after the last has left school, we are still technically paying off school fees. I felt it important that I raise my children myself and that was a good instinct because two of them were later diagnosed autistic spectrum. Those two now 21 and 25 are really thriving in life and contributing citizens.

I would never judge you for putting yours in daycare. That to me is none of my business. But don’t you understand that when you say that you found the childrearing work wasn’t really work in your sense… that your experience of being away from the children in an adult world of paying work for the majority of their lives, gives you a markedly different perspective to someone doing stay at home duties 24/7?

But what if I say I can relate with Mark more than I can relate to you? I’ve been a SAHM for over 20 years, homeschool, 10 living children all currently at home (but 2 are moving out this month) have two adult (and thriving) children, have multiple children with learning disabilities, one that has 7 surgeries, etc, etc. Does that change your response to Mark? Don’t beat up on Mark just because you come from different perspectives or lifestyles.

 

[MomaMary8]

I rarely even encounter it on these boards! More commonly I encounter on these boards people who think that those with large families feel superior to them. And then I encounter people who get defensive because they took offense at something. And then it goes downhill from there.

My own mother was a faithful Catholic who had two children and worked full time and sent us to Catholic schools. And I never encountered anyone at Catholic school who looked down on our family size. And I don’t look down on Catholics with small families --or Catholics with many children or no children for that matter.

This thread! How did the conversation devolve into this?
Communicating over the internet has it’s limitations.

My mother suffered infertility! She was told not to have me (she won’t confirm but I believe abortion was suggested to her for me!). I love my small family that I grew up in.

And yes, how did we get here??

 

[LongingSoul]

Related:

“Non-employed women with young children at home are more likely than women with young children at home who are employed for pay to report experiencing sadness and anger a lot of the day “yesterday.” Stay-at-home moms are also much more likely to report having ever been diagnosed with depression than employed moms. Employed moms are about as emotionally well-off as working women who do not have children at home.”

gallup.com/poll/154685/Stay-Home-Moms-Report-Depression-Sadness-Anger.aspx?utm_source=alert&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=syndication&utm_content=morelink&utm_term=All%20Gallup%20Headlines

28% of SAHMs report depression, while only 17% of employed moms do, which is identical to the level reported by employed women with no children at home.

“Stay-at-home moms also lag behind employed moms in terms of their daily positive emotions: They are less likely to say they smiled or laughed a lot, learned something interesting, and experienced enjoyment and happiness “yesterday.” Additionally, they are less likely than employed moms to rate their lives highly enough to be considered “thriving.””

Some of the differences are not very large, but depression is a veritable plague among SAHMs.

Funny story… in a black humour way. When my daughter was 6 months old and my boys were 2 and 3, I rang Lifeline which is the national crisis number. I was so low with exhaustion and stress (and an italian descent husband who’d never been trained to do ‘womens work’ in his life), that I didn’t know where else to turn. The counsellor was so lovely and soothing as I told her about not being able to get on top of the two boys who never slept and were hyper and naughty etc… and full of sympathy for my predicament, that I suddenly felt too guilty for complaining, that I didn’t tell her I also had a 6 month old baby. I began to do parenting courses as a result of that call and must have done 6 different courses trying to be a better mother. Down the track it was a relief to learn about autism because that explained so much that I’d attributed just to my poor skills as a mother.

I talk about my Lifeline conversation jokingly now but back then I really did feel guilty for complaining about motherhood. Mothers are supposed to say “I have a wonderful family and I offer up the crosses to the Lord above and smile all day”… not “I just can’t do this anymore. It’s beyond me”

 

[LongingSoul]

But what if I say I can relate with Mark more than I can relate to you? I’ve been a SAHM for over 20 years, homeschool, 10 living children all currently at home (but 2 are moving out this month) have two adult (and thriving) children, have multiple children with learning disabilities, one that has 7 surgeries, etc, etc. Does that change your response to Mark? Don’t beat up on Mark just because you come from different perspectives or lifestyles.

No, my response wouldn’t be different. You are speaking from you perspective in defense of Marks right to call others to account because he has done life better.

The difference is that I’m not suggesting that he shouldn’t do life as he as done. He is suggesting that we examine our consciences for selfishness because we only have a small number of children. Yes, I would agree with you if I had been the accuser in this scenario. I am the defender though.

 

[MomaMary8]

You possibly don’t realise how your ideology of large families is coming through so strongly.

For example this statement shouldn’t be a promotion of family size (which this discussion has become) because many large families place a strain on relationships and the time, energy and resources of others who are necessary to the life of a large family. We know of the phenomenon of irresponsible parenting and Pope Francis took the time to negate the false ideology that equates large family with being more Catholic.

Your statement is just an expression of your experience of family. Other parents who’s gifts and skills are in other places, might finish their family and then go out into the world with their time and talents as teachers, doctors, nurses, lawyers, accountants and all the other foot soldier jobs that contribute to the health and wealth of society. Imagine if everyone followed the ideology of large family equals more Catholic? How could that literally be sustained by society? All women back to the home to homeschool their kids. Men taking charge of society again? Personally I think society is a much better place with a balance of men and women directing things. That depends on people having the freedom to have families and to contribute socially as well according to the gifts God gave them.

ok. I"m still confused. I must be dense, but what did I say that was wrong?