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jmjZelie
Guest
I have wondered that very thing. I can imagine that during the tricky perimenopausal time, choices that make sense shy of 40 might get called into question.
Why do most people ignore the Church's teaching on contraception?
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LongingSoul
Guest
That’s why discernment is an important skill to nurture from the get go. We want to really be able to know Gods will for us and take the little steps that help us grow in holiness before we take major steps. In the spiritual exercises directees are cautioned about taking on radical ideas as an answer to what seems like Gods call because in those times of conversion upheaval… that’s when the evil one starts being pesky trying to turn our efforts to his ends.
Mother Teresa answered to someone wanting to know how they could be like her. Her answer was “Not all of us can do great things. But we can do small things with great love.” She was a great proponent of NFP in the Indian slums. She did not sell it as something for poor, starving slum dwellers who have ‘just reasons’. She saw it as gift from God to be able to plan ones family. Not a way of preventing poor little Indian babies from coming into the world… but a way of co-operating with the will of God in the life of each family.
Wanting a life dedicated to the raising of children even well into ones 60’s, is perfectly godly as a calling, but to do so disregarding the nagging concerns and difficulties that are inevitable and doing it as a ‘sacrifice’ for our godliness, is not wise. It’s inviting problems with the evil one in other ways.
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Abu
Guest
Why? You’ve given no reasons to back up your fancy which is against Christ’s establishment of His Church with the guarantee that “Whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven.” (Mt 16:19). Christ does not promote picking and choosing whatever we want to believe and follow, but forbids it.
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Rose71
Guest
I’m forced to conclude, after reading this thread, that the reason most Catholics ignore the Church’s teaching on contraception is because their parents were too busy bickering over who is doing the best job as a parent and forgot tell their children that ABC is wrong 
Seriously, can we get back to the original question, because in terms of our shared faith, it’s pretty huge: moreso, might I suggest, than any discussion about SAHM vs working mothers and whether an individual’s decision to use NFP (or not) is guided by selflesness or selfishness.
None of us is a mindreader and we’re all doing our best to live as good Catholics in a society that often views our beliefs with derision.
Seriously, can we get back to the original question, because in terms of our shared faith, it’s pretty huge: moreso, might I suggest, than any discussion about SAHM vs working mothers and whether an individual’s decision to use NFP (or not) is guided by selflesness or selfishness.
None of us is a mindreader and we’re all doing our best to live as good Catholics in a society that often views our beliefs with derision.
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Memaw
Guest
Just keep in mind, we are not animals and God gave us the sacred gifts of Free Will and Intellect and we should do our best to keep them Sacred. Our salvation depends on it. God Bless, MemawMost animals and even most primates have a different type of fertility cycle than we do.
Bunnies for example, don’t even have a fertility cycle. They have induced fertility. Mama bunny can get pregnant right after giving birth, if papa bunny is interested. Papa bunnies tend to always be interested.
Also, most other animals mate only when in heat (except for some types of primate and some types of sea mammals) So Farmer Smith would know if the sheep were in heat, because he’d sea Papa Ram being very interested in Mama Ewe, and very grumpy with other Rams.
(My dad was a farmer…)
Mary_Gail_36
New member
Yes of course. I just wanted to comment how we are different physically than animals. Spiritually we are much more so. The animals don’t have our gifts.
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Xantippe
Guest
Well, all of these seemingly unrelated issues have a bearing on why people use contraception.I’m forced to conclude, after reading this thread, that the reason most Catholics ignore the Church’s teaching on contraception is because their parents were too busy bickering over who is doing the best job as a parent and forgot tell their children that ABC is wrong
Seriously, can we get back to the original question, because in terms of our shared faith, it’s pretty huge: moreso, might I suggest, than any discussion about SAHM vs working mothers and whether an individual’s decision to use NFP (or not) is guided by selflesness or selfishness.
None of us is a mindreader and we’re all doing our best to live as good Catholics in a society that often views our beliefs with derision.
And it might be basically a GOOD motive. For instance, I think many parents would be horrified by the idea of putting tiny babies into daycare unless it was dire necessity. I frequently have to walk by the infant area at a daycare and the thought that keeps flashing through my mind as I walk past the rows of cribs and rooms full of crying babies is, “Romanian orphanage.”
Many parents would find any situation that required putting an infant into daycare unacceptable (or at least to be avoided at almost any price).
We often think about the bad motives that people have for using contraception, but if anything, the good motives are as big or a bigger issue.
And this isn’t unique in the moral life–people often have good motives for doing bad things (or at least some good motives).
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Memaw
Guest
The ends do not justify the means. God Bless, Memaw
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Xantippe
Guest
The question in the thread is “Why do most people ignore the Church’s teaching on contraception?”
That’s what we’re discussing and Rose71 was trying to get us back on that topic.
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Rose71
Guest
Following on from Xantippe’s last post, I think many people’s expectations (at least in the West) of quality of life have changed both in terms of what constitutes ‘quality’ and how much of it they are entitled to expect.
What I mean is that for many people, the faith that they were baptised into (whatever denomination) is seen more as a ‘tradition’ than something that actually provides any moral compass. One consequence of this is that ‘quality of life’ is very detached from any sort of ‘quality of spiritual life’ and measured in material wealth and signs of ‘doing well’ like more holidays to more expensive locations, better cars etc.
People’s expectations and sense of entitlement also seem to have changed, at least among my peer group (I’m 44) I have several friends who maintain they can’t afford to have any more children when actually, compared to many families, they are very well off indeed. What they mean is that more children would lead to them losing the lifestyle that they feel they are entitled to because of the years of hard work they have put in from high school upwards.
I wonder sometimes if women who are my age were just pushed too hard at school into putting career before all else until the trappings of a successful career were seen the only ‘real’ badge of self-worth and achievement? Very few of my friends married before the age of 35 and fewer still before 30. Of those who did, I know just 1 who chose to be a SAHM and ironically, she and her husband genuinely do struggle to make ends meet, but they have the happiest, most well-adjusted children you could wish to meet. They don’t live in a ‘good’ area, or have lots of gadgets and fancy holidays. In fact, their lifestyle would be regared by many of my other friends as ‘unacceptable’ for them. For me, she’s the friend whose wisdom and faith I admire the most!
Against this sort of background, I can see why ABC becomes a habit. I know a lot of women my age who were very pious at school, but by the time we all reached university, having a sexual relationship with one’s boyfriend was considered ‘the norm’ and, as Xantippe has already pointed out, some people do wrong with genuinely good intentions. In the cases of many of my friends, they knew on some level that sex outside marriage was wrong, but they also desperately wanted to avoid creating a new life when they didn’t feel emotionally of financially ready to care for him / her and did not want to disappoint their parents. I’m in no way condoning their actions but I do understand them.
This mentality allowes women to go on contracepting and having relationships without choosing ‘the one’ until they feel they have the financial means to secure a lifestyle which reflects their achievements. The tragic flip-side is that contraception takes away a woman’s right to say ‘no’ on anything but moral grounds and as the concept of ‘morality’ is such a moveable feast in the secular world, it’s almost a given that sex is expected in a stable, adult relationship and therefore, contraception is presented as the ‘rational and responsible’ choice.
My friends who have married and had children in the their late 30s and early 40s (yes, it can and does happen, even without IVF) have a very different outlook on life than they did in their 20s and early 30s. They suddenly seem to realise who lucky they are to have their children and they become obsessive about providing ‘the best’ and giving them the sort of picture book existence that they ‘sort of’ remember from their own childhood and all the Enid Blyton books they read
If having more than 2 children means having to forgo staying at home, or using a day nursery that is extremely well run, they genuinely see that as a reason for restricting their family size. One lady I know who is intelligent, caring, still mindful of her Catholic upbringing and very committed to her marriage insisted she would abort her second baby if he / she was diagnosed with any chromosomal abnormalities because she wanted ‘only the best’ for her already born toddler.
Of course, there are the lazy, feckless individuals who use contraception as an excuse to sleep around and take no responsibility for their actions, but I believe many people who use it do so because their understanding of their faith is half-baked and eroded by secular values, so that they genuinely believe that they are doing something that is morally justifiable and do so with genuinely good intentions.
Okay, that’s my expanded take on the ‘why’. I have no idea what we do to address it!
I still have every sympathy for married couples for whom, for whatever reason, are unable to use NFP and still have that deep desire to be true to their faith. This is definitely a group that gets swept under the carpet by the Church.
What I mean is that for many people, the faith that they were baptised into (whatever denomination) is seen more as a ‘tradition’ than something that actually provides any moral compass. One consequence of this is that ‘quality of life’ is very detached from any sort of ‘quality of spiritual life’ and measured in material wealth and signs of ‘doing well’ like more holidays to more expensive locations, better cars etc.
People’s expectations and sense of entitlement also seem to have changed, at least among my peer group (I’m 44) I have several friends who maintain they can’t afford to have any more children when actually, compared to many families, they are very well off indeed. What they mean is that more children would lead to them losing the lifestyle that they feel they are entitled to because of the years of hard work they have put in from high school upwards.
I wonder sometimes if women who are my age were just pushed too hard at school into putting career before all else until the trappings of a successful career were seen the only ‘real’ badge of self-worth and achievement? Very few of my friends married before the age of 35 and fewer still before 30. Of those who did, I know just 1 who chose to be a SAHM and ironically, she and her husband genuinely do struggle to make ends meet, but they have the happiest, most well-adjusted children you could wish to meet. They don’t live in a ‘good’ area, or have lots of gadgets and fancy holidays. In fact, their lifestyle would be regared by many of my other friends as ‘unacceptable’ for them. For me, she’s the friend whose wisdom and faith I admire the most!
Against this sort of background, I can see why ABC becomes a habit. I know a lot of women my age who were very pious at school, but by the time we all reached university, having a sexual relationship with one’s boyfriend was considered ‘the norm’ and, as Xantippe has already pointed out, some people do wrong with genuinely good intentions. In the cases of many of my friends, they knew on some level that sex outside marriage was wrong, but they also desperately wanted to avoid creating a new life when they didn’t feel emotionally of financially ready to care for him / her and did not want to disappoint their parents. I’m in no way condoning their actions but I do understand them.
This mentality allowes women to go on contracepting and having relationships without choosing ‘the one’ until they feel they have the financial means to secure a lifestyle which reflects their achievements. The tragic flip-side is that contraception takes away a woman’s right to say ‘no’ on anything but moral grounds and as the concept of ‘morality’ is such a moveable feast in the secular world, it’s almost a given that sex is expected in a stable, adult relationship and therefore, contraception is presented as the ‘rational and responsible’ choice.
My friends who have married and had children in the their late 30s and early 40s (yes, it can and does happen, even without IVF) have a very different outlook on life than they did in their 20s and early 30s. They suddenly seem to realise who lucky they are to have their children and they become obsessive about providing ‘the best’ and giving them the sort of picture book existence that they ‘sort of’ remember from their own childhood and all the Enid Blyton books they read
If having more than 2 children means having to forgo staying at home, or using a day nursery that is extremely well run, they genuinely see that as a reason for restricting their family size. One lady I know who is intelligent, caring, still mindful of her Catholic upbringing and very committed to her marriage insisted she would abort her second baby if he / she was diagnosed with any chromosomal abnormalities because she wanted ‘only the best’ for her already born toddler.
Of course, there are the lazy, feckless individuals who use contraception as an excuse to sleep around and take no responsibility for their actions, but I believe many people who use it do so because their understanding of their faith is half-baked and eroded by secular values, so that they genuinely believe that they are doing something that is morally justifiable and do so with genuinely good intentions.
Okay, that’s my expanded take on the ‘why’. I have no idea what we do to address it!I still have every sympathy for married couples for whom, for whatever reason, are unable to use NFP and still have that deep desire to be true to their faith. This is definitely a group that gets swept under the carpet by the Church.
R
Rico_S
Guest
Back on track…and we can divert everyone’s irritation this way.
Here is my take on why so many ignore the Church’s teaching on contraception.
First, I think married couples believe that sex is an important part of married life. Although most couples will likely admit that we live in an oversexed society, where sex’s importance is elevated to a ridiculous level, but still; the reality is that sex is in important part of the marital relationship. It is the something that distinguishes the marital relationship from every other relationship.
Second, I believe most people think they have a say in family planing…that they have a responsibility and a right to plan and it is their call (hopefully with the guidance of God) on when and how they add to their family.
Third, I believe that while the most conservative use of NFP can be very effective in preventing pregnancy, most aren’t really taught to go the most conservative route, couples are to interpret the data to make conclusions on ovulation (danger!! heck the church doesn’t trust us to interpret anything on our own. LOL_) , the data can vary widely from woman to woman. Bottom line—real world effectiveness is not great, and if it is practiced super conservatively to ensure effectiveness, the green light days are few, and the whole concept of "we have to have sex now while we have the green light " creates an intimacy killer.
Now the final piece isn’t usually touched on in these threads, but I believe that married couples who decide to use abc still experience the positive aspects of the sexual relationship–closeness, intimacy, etc. While one might decry the use of a condom is simply one person using the other, I highly doubt that, while basking in the post coitus snuggle fest,the married couple feels like “hey, he just used me.” While they may prefer sex while not using ABC, all the good stuff that comes from the sexual relationship with ones spouse is worth putting up with the inconvenience of abc, when the alternative is no sexual relationship.
Here is my take on why so many ignore the Church’s teaching on contraception.
First, I think married couples believe that sex is an important part of married life. Although most couples will likely admit that we live in an oversexed society, where sex’s importance is elevated to a ridiculous level, but still; the reality is that sex is in important part of the marital relationship. It is the something that distinguishes the marital relationship from every other relationship.
Second, I believe most people think they have a say in family planing…that they have a responsibility and a right to plan and it is their call (hopefully with the guidance of God) on when and how they add to their family.
Third, I believe that while the most conservative use of NFP can be very effective in preventing pregnancy, most aren’t really taught to go the most conservative route, couples are to interpret the data to make conclusions on ovulation (danger!! heck the church doesn’t trust us to interpret anything on our own. LOL_) , the data can vary widely from woman to woman. Bottom line—real world effectiveness is not great, and if it is practiced super conservatively to ensure effectiveness, the green light days are few, and the whole concept of "we have to have sex now while we have the green light " creates an intimacy killer.
Now the final piece isn’t usually touched on in these threads, but I believe that married couples who decide to use abc still experience the positive aspects of the sexual relationship–closeness, intimacy, etc. While one might decry the use of a condom is simply one person using the other, I highly doubt that, while basking in the post coitus snuggle fest,the married couple feels like “hey, he just used me.” While they may prefer sex while not using ABC, all the good stuff that comes from the sexual relationship with ones spouse is worth putting up with the inconvenience of abc, when the alternative is no sexual relationship.
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Rose71
Guest
Great points. Sex is an important part of marriage and something that defines marriage as different from any other relationship.A thought has just struck me that fills me with dread :bigyikes: and also makes me think of the other recent thread on why Catholic churches can be so unwelcoming.
Hand on heart, I could not imagine having this discssuion face to face with anyone in my Parish! I am 99% sure that instead of actually adressing the question, the room would be split between people who maintain that the Church should ‘get with the times’ and re-think her stance and the people who would waste time by responding to every effort to explain ‘why’ by delivering another lecture on why people who use ABC are wrong. Yes, we know they are wrong - but in order to address that, we have to try to understand ***why ***they are doing it and acknowledge that it is happening!
Other than on this forum, I’ve never expereinced anything resembling an intelligent discussion on ABC and why so many people ignore the Church’s teaching. Maybe that’s part of the problem too: how do we, as the Catholic Community, begin a discussion? Who do we ask? Who does the asking? How do we convince some Catholics that we are not trying to find out so we can ‘change’ the Church’s teaching? Conversely, how do we ask without raising the hopes of those who desperately wish it would change?
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MarkInOregon
Guest
I give. My wifes experience means nothing, my moms experience means nothing, any parenting I have done means nothing—the only valid experience belongs to you. My mom never worked, my wife was a stay at home mom for eight years–I can hear you now–“well yes but that was only for eight years–try doing it for as long as the rest of us and then come see us.” They just never talk like some on this forum–and we’ve talked about this–it’s one of the things we don’t understand in so many parents today. I get that you think the parenting I have done the past 26 years isn’t “real parenting”. It’s not like I’ve never spent anytime parenting alone–but I know until I do it day in and day out for 30 years it doesn’t count–it’s not real. I know my moms parenting experience probably doesn’t count either because–well things were different back then and it was, well you know, just easier for them. So I give–no matter what is said there will always be some reason to dismiss it. I just know my wife sees a difference between when she used to go to work at a job everyday and staying home with the kids. So I will bow out now and let you do your victory dance. I just know in my extended family there is a joy in raising kids, even with all the struggles and challenges, that we don’t find in a job–maybe that’s why we view it differently.
The peace of Christ,
Mark
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THP
Guest
I honestly think this is what it all boils down to - why married couples ignore the Church’s teaching. The proscription against contraception is at its heart a Natural Law argument that sexual activity must be unitive and procreative. The vast majority of married couples who have had contraceptive sex find it to be equally (if not more) satisfying and enjoyable and don’t see any negative effects on their marriage or relationship. This Natural Law is not congruent with the human experience, so it is not understood and is ignored.
I don’t think it will be possible - no matter how much education, outreach, programs, etc for the Church to ever be successful in convincing married couples otherwise.
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THP
Guest
No doubt, but I was trying to make a generalization. Obviously there are going to be many reasons why people ignore the teaching.
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LongingSoul
Guest
In my opinion, I think this is about right. When Pope Francis said we need to stop blah, blah, blahing about signature Catholic issues … contraception being one of those… a lot of people were shocked, but that really made a lot of sense to me. Human fertility is more like a delicate ecosystem and the overuse of contraception is not the cause of its degradation… its a symptom. It’s like the canary being sent down into the mine. When the canary dies, instead of trying to sort out the air quality in the mine, we look for ways to stop the canary dying by putting a little gas mask on it or some other sheath to prevent it breathing the mine air and we continue to tolerate the toxic environment.
People do choose abc in marriage for what they really feel is responsible reasons. Addressing the whole environment they are making that choice in is probably going to be effective than addressing the practice itself. Really I think the Church is being a forerunner in that now in addressing the long ignored social justice issues that can unite the whole world in a common cause, instead of reiterating the differences between being a holy Catholic and a godless heathen as we’ve tended to do in the past.
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MarkInOregon
Guest
You have many interesting observations in your post. It’s funny–for my wife and I it was just the opposite. Of our 5 children we had our last three when we were 36 (34), 41(39) and 45(43). And yes by that time we had a different outlook on life than we did when we were first out of college–it was one more informed by Church teaching and a desire to live that teaching. Rather than being obsessed with giving them the “best” (that was something we were more concerned about with our first two in their early years) we were concerned about raising them to be faithful practicing Catholics and in trying to be a good witness for our faith. I guess I’d say we still want the best for our children but our idea of what is the best–has changed.My friends who have married and had children in the their late 30s and early 40s (yes, it can and does happen, even without IVF) have a very different outlook on life than they did in their 20s and early 30s. They suddenly seem to realise who lucky they are to have their children and they become obsessive about providing ‘the best’ and giving them the sort of picture book existence that they ‘sort of’ remember from their own childhood and all the Enid Blyton books they read
The peace of Christ,
Mark
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Sarcelle
Guest
I have no dog in this fight. Just an observer.
Your experience in parenthood is different than Xantippe’s. Your experience does not invalidate her experience and her experience does not invalidate yours, so I do not get your anger.
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Rico_S
Guest
Are those somehow mutually exclusive?
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