Why do most people ignore the Church's teaching on contraception?

[Xantippe]

It wasn’t a shot–it was a question–and MammaMary8 saw it for what it was. In answer to your question regarding large families who have become comfortable in there decision (though that wasn’t really what I meant by comfort zone)–they too should always be questioning–discerning Gods will for them–so no I wouldn’t see it as an attack. Examining our lives, discerning Gods will --is not something we do once and then its done–check of the box on a form–its something we should do daily. If we are discerning Gods will then I expect we will be comfortable with out decisions, but I also expect that some decisions we make and are comfortable with will pull us out of our comfort zone as we grow in faith and love. It’s not a shot–why are we all looking to be so easily offended? Why do we all assume the worst motives in other posters?

The peace of Christ,
Mark

I feel like the “always be questioning” could be very, very spiritually and psychologically unhealthy for a lot of people–for instance anybody with a tendency to OCD or scruples. There are plenty of people like that around CAF.

I also feel like you underestimate the extent to which volunteers are happy to jump in and “always be questioning” other people without being asked to. Look at this thread, for example. There’s no shortage of volunteers eager to jump in and explain how LARGE FAMILIES makes your whites whiter, teeth brighter, makes hair shiny, removes pesky stains, improves your spiritual life, and gets you to heaven 2X faster, etc.

It would be one thing if this advertising campaign were solely addressed to newlyweds or very new parents, but time and time again, we see experienced parents of 10-30 years of experience getting the full JW/telemarketer/MLM treatment, as if they didn’t already have a reasonably good idea of their personal limits, their shortcomings as parents, and the various foibles of their children and spouse.

 

[MarkInOregon]

Exactly.

I know parents of large families on CAF don’t intend it to sound like this, but a lot of large-family boosterism here tends to come across as, “If only you were as holy as me, then you’d have a big family like me! It’s very easy to do–when you’re as holy as me!”

A few pages back, we had a father of five explaining that he didn’t even find it work to have five children.

I find that totally unrelatable.

You may, but I find the whole my kids are sooooooooo much work just as unrelatable. I didn’t say raising them wasn’t at times challenging or hard just that I don’t view it as “work”–as a job, as a task to accomplish. I view raising my kids as much more than that. If I viewed raising them as “work”, as a job I’d be exhausted and mentally worn out waiting for the day they turn 18 so I could retire, can change the locks, and start living my life. I’m guessing we don’t use the word “work” the same.

I’m the father of five–I don’t consider that a large family–probably medium in my mind, but I never read these posts, the posts for large families as you and many others do–I think you have to be looking for that to find it. If you’re looking to be offended–then you’ll find offence in anything. I find encouragement in those who have large families in there openness-- I do not find an indictment of the number of children my wife and I have had and I think to read their posts as promoting how holy they are is, well, uncharitable.

The peace of Christ,
Mark

 

[Xantippe]

Here’s an interesting article on contraception and NFP from a year and a half ago by Fr. Peter Daly, pastor of St. John Vianney parish in Prince Frederick, Md., since 1994 (I’ve excerpted some parts below):

ncronline.org/blogs/parish-diary/what-our-parish-does-about-contraception-and-family-planning

I really object to this quote: “Practically every young family has two or three children. I doubt that they are practicing natural family planning.”

Many of our young CAF families have one, two or three children.

 

[PaulinVA]

I really object to this quote: “Practically every young family has two or three children. I doubt that they are practicing natural family planning.”

Many of our young CAF families have one, two or three children.

I was going to let this go, but since you brought it up…

Check out my post 661. These “holy” families of the past were really just using an NFP method that was not all that effective.

Frankly, it’s a stupid statement. Why tie NFP to large families? Because it’s ineffective? Because those people (we people) are unable to abstain, to master urges? Probably it’s the bias that if you are holy, you use NFP and naturally want to have a large family.

I have four children, three living, ALL THREE IN COLLEGE RIGHT NOW. I love my kids and I have had a blast raising them. It’s also been a struggle at times.

There are so many issues around family size that I think we should all sheath the swords and leave family size discussions alone. No one ever gains from them.

 

[kptrs]

I really object to this quote: “Practically every young family has two or three children. I doubt that they are practicing natural family planning.”

Many of our young CAF families have one, two or three children.

Yeah. That quote is really presumptuous and judgemental. For one thing, the couples in question may have tried to have more kids but couldn’t. For another thing, they may have had many miscarriages. And yet another thing, it is indeed possible that NFP actually works!

 

[pensmama87]

I really object to this quote: “Practically every young family has two or three children. I doubt that they are practicing natural family planning.”

Many of our young CAF families have one, two or three children.

I thought of this blog post, which I’ve linked before: Dear Newlywed, You’re Probably Worried About the Wrong Thing.

Now, the author doesn’t love NFP for her family, and she’s open about that. But I like this because I do not understand why contraceptive pushers have this mindset that we’d all have 20+ kids without the Pill. That hasn’t been the case throughout human history, and the dangers of pregnancy, childbirth, and infancy/early childhood are not the only answer (though that’s definitely not to be dismissed completely.)

The “hyper-fertile” have always been something of a rarity, even if they were slightly more common in the past. Even the-family-that-shall-not-be-named is a rarity in their enclave, and all those families are (supposed to be) trying to have as many children as possible.

 

[Convert_in_99]

It’s so frustrating. Every year, we go to a Catholic family conference, and every year, we have the smallest family. I seriously want to buy a shirt that says, “you may only see two children, but I’ve given birth to five…and I don’t use abc!”

Right there with you. :console: We have one in heaven. None living. It’s not fun being an infertile Catholic, you don’t have lots of friends and are excluded from a lot of parish activities geared towards families, not couples. Now I have the extra burden of having had to have a hysterectomy. So there 100% for sure will never be a living child in our future. But it isn’t cause of abc. In fact, most people here know the great extent I went to avoid abc. Even to the point of being bedridden most of the month and writhing in pain even on pain meds. But I wish I could get that on a t-shirt, so EVERYone would know the truth. Ugh!

I’m so sorry you have to go through this too. :console:

 

[kptrs]

One of my pet peeves.

Catholic families in the sixties and seventies with four or more children were considered holy because probably mom and dad were using the rhythm method, which was not very effective. I was a teen then, and I know a lot of these parents didn’t seek out the large family - it happened due to their faithfulness to church teaching.

These same couples, if they had the modern versions of NFP at their disposal, would not have had the large families. I know. I knew them and spoke to them, in the context of a Catholic prayer group.

My point is that, in the 2000s, faithful = large family doesn’t have the same connection it did in the sixties. Many Catholics can now better limit their family size to what is right for them.

This ^^^

NFP has definitely come a long way, but modern folks tend to automatically assume NFP = unreliable calendar methods of the past, and assume NFP means you’re going to have 20 kids. Anytime my OB asks what I do to prevent pregnancy and I say I use the Marquette Method of NFP, they usually look at me like I have three heads and say, “Well, as long as you know you can have an unplanned pregnancy using that, right?”

 

[LongingSoul]

To be totally honest your post is rather confusing. What do you mean by saying that I am insisting that big families are “less” in this issue???

You possibly don’t realise how your ideology of large families is coming through so strongly.

Mother’s are masters at using their resources well…Besides, openness in one area of spiritual life tends to open up other areas of spiritual life. Funny how that works. I think the more children we have had , the more generous we have been to others. We see our blessings, know how little we actually need, and share our extras gladly.

For example this statement shouldn’t be a promotion of family size (which this discussion has become) because many large families place a strain on relationships and the time, energy and resources of others who are necessary to the life of a large family. We know of the phenomenon of irresponsible parenting and Pope Francis took the time to negate the false ideology that equates large family with being more Catholic.

Your statement is just an expression of your experience of family. Other parents who’s gifts and skills are in other places, might finish their family and then go out into the world with their time and talents as teachers, doctors, nurses, lawyers, accountants and all the other foot soldier jobs that contribute to the health and wealth of society. Imagine if everyone followed the ideology of large family equals more Catholic? How could that literally be sustained by society? All women back to the home to homeschool their kids. Men taking charge of society again? Personally I think society is a much better place with a balance of men and women directing things. That depends on people having the freedom to have families and to contribute socially as well according to the gifts God gave them.

 

[LongingSoul]

But throwing out accusations that large families are claiming to be holier than thou is wrong. When I state being open in your spiritual life in one area will create openness in other areas of your spritiual life, I was accused of something I NEVER said. I saw this done to other posters as well. It’s reactionary and deffensive.

That father of five had just been accused of not knowing the hard work of three children so he then had to give a personal example of having 5 children and not feeling overwhelmed. You may not relate, but I could.

I didn’t ‘accuse’. He implied by his post that we should go out of our ‘comfort zone’ to have more children than we have discerned, as a spiritual virtue. I actually hate having to explain why I stopped at 3. It means having to talk about stillbirth and miscarriage and autism and marriage problems and lots of painful realities that I know exist in many peoples lives. It isn’t fair to have to defend your small family from someone who thinks you are just being selfish.

 

[MarkInOregon]

I feel like the “always be questioning” could be very, very spiritually and psychologically unhealthy for a lot of people–for instance anybody with a tendency to OCD or scruples. There are plenty of people like that around CAF.

I also feel like you underestimate the extent to which volunteers are happy to jump in and “always be questioning” other people without being asked to. Look at this thread, for example. There’s no shortage of volunteers eager to jump in and explain how LARGE FAMILIES makes your whites whiter, teeth brighter, makes hair shiny, removes pesky stains, improves your spiritual life, and gets you to heaven 2X faster, etc.

It would be one thing if this advertising campaign were solely addressed to newlyweds or very new parents, but time and time again, we see experienced parents of 10-30 years of experience getting the full JW/telemarketer/MLM treatment, as if they didn’t already have a reasonably good idea of their personal limits, their shortcomings as parents, and the various foibles of their children and spouse.

Thank you. See we have a fundamental difference in outlook–and that’s fine. Perhaps we mean different things by questioning. I think it is more dangerous, for more people, to think we determined Gods will for our lives at age xx and we never have to examine that again (though I doubt that’s what you’re saying). I think growing in holiness is a life long process that involves continual prayer and discernment of Gods will for us. I don’t think that’s dangerous for the vast majority of people–it may at times be uncomfortable though.

And again I don’t read those large family posts as you do–I hardly recognize them in your characterization of them.

Our limits and shortcoming change over time as well as our strengths–I know mine have and so have my spouses. There is a good chance things wouldn’t have changed if we didn’t push ourselves–if we didn’t prayerfully look at ourselves and our lives and try to discern Gods will for us. At times we (speaking of my wife and I) need to be called on things–perhaps it would be more pleasant coming from a spiritual director than on a public forum–but then we choose to come here and ask questions or offer our opinions in response to them.

I wish you all the best and I hope your children are able to get the time you’d like them to have with their grandparents. I will now let this thread get back to its regularly scheduled programming–and I apologize to all that it has gotten off track.

The peace of Christ,
Mark

 

[LongingSoul]

You may, but I find the whole my kids are sooooooooo much work just as unrelatable. I didn’t say raising them wasn’t at times challenging or hard just that I don’t view it as “work”–as a job, as a task to accomplish. I view raising my kids as much more than that. If I viewed raising them as “work”, as a job I’d be exhausted and mentally worn out waiting for the day they turn 18 so I could retire, can change the locks, and start living my life. I’m guessing we don’t use the word “work” the same.

I’m the father of five–I don’t consider that a large family–probably medium in my mind, but I never read these posts, the posts for large families as you and many others do–I think you have to be looking for that to find it. If you’re looking to be offended–then you’ll find offence in anything. I find encouragement in those who have large families in there openness-- I do not find an indictment of the number of children my wife and I have had and I think to read their posts as promoting how holy they are is, well, uncharitable.

The peace of Christ,
Mark

If someone says kids are hard work… why do you think they are lying or maybe you think they are weak… simply because you don’t find it hard? Don’t you believe that people have different strengths and capacities of coping and different circumstances to survive with?

Your response of “I don’t find it hard. I have a better attitude than you. I have a better understanding of the meaning of ‘work’”. It’s a fundamentally judgemental attitude to have. By you argument, you set the bar of doability right at your level and are incredulous than anyone might achieve lower. Don’t you see that as judgemental?

 

[UbiCaritas]

Without getting too far into it. I have 5, 1 is a newborn. 3 are in school. We homeschool and my days are a great joy to me. I have plenty of time to post with you fine folks and do other things. Not to mention snuggles all day long. Is my day always easy? Nope but it is always a fun joyous thing for all of us. Perhaps it isn’t the size of the family you should consider but the quality of parent. We use seton and are incredibly pleased with the ease and quality. It is a tad expensive but…

And see, this sounds rather like a good friend of mine who had a lot of kids and homeschooled them all. From what I can see–the majority are adults now–they turned out well, no arguments there. To have a close, well-educated, and still-practicing-their-faith-as-independent-adults homeschooling family that big is no small accomplishment! If I could be her age with a family like that, I’d be one hell of a proud mom, and justifiably so.

However, I also, as an outsider, see certain things that they might not realize. I see a homeschooling mom with no hobbies or interests because she spent decades homeschooling all the time. I also see a house that’s dirty and disorganized. No one can ever find anything, leading to virtually nonstop stress/accusations/fights over where important documents or objects are; having people over is a major source of stress because the kids really don’t know how to clean (parents were too busy working/teaching to walk them through how to clean) and aren’t in the habit of tidying up; and the kids, even as adults, don’t have a lot of what I would consider basic life skills–think financial stuff like tax preparation, or simple house maintenance, etc. These things lead to a lot of conflict, and ditto the chores that the kids have. Back when there were more kids at home, they had a maid so that mom could focus on childcare and education, plus they had local, helpful family. Neither will ever be an option for us.

One last thing: I still can’t imagine having a kid who can’t read well be essentially responsible for his/her education, nor can I see spending less than 3 hours of daily instruction in everything you need to teach at the first-grade level. My DH, who was also homeschooled, tells me that at a certain point when you have more than one school-aged kid you can have them take turns with childcare of littles while you teach the other kid, but there’s the problem of getting to that point without neglecting either toddler care or older kid academics. The scenario my friend has right now sounds pretty miserable for the toddler, but as the toddler no longer naps and the newborn isn’t exactly at an age where she can play with big sis, there isn’t really a way around blocking the toddler from the room so that her brother can get work done. You try practicing writing while your sister’s grabbing your pencil–it’s not easy!

 

[jmjZelie]

Regarding the question someone raised about homeschool parents of large families always being miserable and having no time for friends or hobbies:
Some of you may remember my posts last fall indicating such was true with me. I was going through a deep personal crisis and vented here a bit. I now realized I was doing it all wrong. The problem was not my family size or the decision to homeschool or anything like that. It was me trying to live a lifestyle that is not authentic to me and live according to the expectations and timetables of other people. Once I realized I was doing that and that I was responsible for making myself miserable, and blaming it all on my family and my circumstances, I began to reexamine everything. I made some really huge changes. My depression lifted and my joy came back and my confidence skyrocketed and I felt more energetic and creative.
I think this type of crisis can happen to anyone, parents or not, large family or small. I would hate for homeschooling to become associated with perpetually miserable parents who never have time for hobbies or friends. If you see such a homeschooling parent in your life, please storm heaven for them. For those called to this challenge, it is meant to be joyous and fulfilling. Yes, it is very hard and I have to learn how to squeeze every last drop of time and energy out of my day, but it shouldn’t be drudgery.

 

[UbiCaritas]

You may, but I find the whole my kids are sooooooooo much work just as unrelatable. I didn’t say raising them wasn’t at times challenging or hard just that I don’t view it as “work”–as a job, as a task to accomplish. I view raising my kids as much more than that. If I viewed raising them as “work”, as a job I’d be exhausted and mentally worn out waiting for the day they turn 18 so I could retire, can change the locks, and start living my life. I’m guessing we don’t use the word “work” the same.

I’m the father of five–I don’t consider that a large family–probably medium in my mind, but I never read these posts, the posts for large families as you and many others do–I think you have to be looking for that to find it. If you’re looking to be offended–then you’ll find offence in anything. I find encouragement in those who have large families in there openness-- I do not find an indictment of the number of children my wife and I have had and I think to read their posts as promoting how holy they are is, well, uncharitable.

The peace of Christ,
Mark

Here’s a rather personal question, and you needn’t answer it if you choose not to. Did you stay at home with the kids?

DH also doesn’t see parenting as work. But then, he comes home an hour or two before bedtime, and gets to be a superhero in his kid’s eyes because he plays with her for much of that time and hasn’t been home all day. On the other hand, I’m the one who wages the battles over eating/sleeping/behavior/et all for 10 hours every day while being constantly interrupted in the course of non-kid work (laundry, floors, etc), so yep, I’m exhausted by the end of the day, and just want bedtime to hit so that I can put my feet up and relax.

Now, DH doesn’t belittle what I deal with all day, and he’s very appreciative of what I do, but he also doesn’t quite understand my perspective of “I’m stressed because I’m trying to clean up the kitchen after dinner but the kid won’t stop crying because I’m not playing with her, I’ve been doing this all day and I am SO DONE” because to him, spending time with DD is playtime, not “I’m trying to get all this done and she keeps interrupting me” time. Plus, he’s had adult interaction all day, the ability to use the bathroom when he wants and by himself, and a lunch hour wherein no one’s grabbing his food, screaming at him, or refusing to eat the lunch he prepared for them and is responsible for getting into them.

 

[LongingSoul]

And see, this sounds rather like a good friend of mine who had a lot of kids and homeschooled them all. From what I can see–the majority are adults now–they turned out well, no arguments there. To have a close, well-educated, and still-practicing-their-faith-as-independent-adults homeschooling family that big is no small accomplishment! If I could be her age with a family like that, I’d be one hell of a proud mom, and justifiably so.

However, I also, as an outsider, see certain things that they might not realize. I see a homeschooling mom with no hobbies or interests because she spent decades homeschooling all the time. I also see a house that’s dirty and disorganized. No one can ever find anything, leading to virtually nonstop stress/accusations/fights over where important documents or objects are; having people over is a major source of stress because the kids really don’t know how to clean (parents were too busy working/teaching to walk them through how to clean) and aren’t in the habit of tidying up; and the kids, even as adults, don’t have a lot of what I would consider basic life skills–think financial stuff like tax preparation, or simple house maintenance, etc. These things lead to a lot of conflict, and ditto the chores that the kids have. Back when there were more kids at home, they had a maid so that mom could focus on childcare and education, plus they had local, helpful family. Neither will ever be an option for us.

One last thing: I still can’t imagine having a kid who can’t read well be essentially responsible for his/her education, nor can I see spending less than 3 hours of daily instruction in everything you need to teach at the first-grade level. My DH, who was also homeschooled, tells me that at a certain point when you have more than one school-aged kid you can have them take turns with childcare of littles while you teach the other kid, but there’s the problem of getting to that point without neglecting either toddler care or older kid academics. The scenario my friend has right now sounds pretty miserable for the toddler, but as the toddler no longer naps and the newborn isn’t exactly at an age where she can play with big sis, there isn’t really a way around blocking the toddler from the room so that her brother can get work done. You try practicing writing while your sister’s grabbing your pencil–it’s not easy!

This really highlights the aspect of vocation. Teaching is a noble vocation and requires certain personal qualities and abilities to bring the best out in children. Education is one of the most important gifts a parent gives a child and the child has a right to expect a good quality grounding for life. My mother taught me and my 3 siblings at some stage but that was because she was a teacher at the small school we attended and we all passed through her grade. The nuns had begged her to come back and teach at the school she had left when she had me. They were desperate and in fact because there was little money, she accepted half pay for a full days work for the first year back. (That wouldn’t happen now!) Mum was a brilliant teacher and was in charge of sacramental preparation in the Parish also. 40/50 years later I still occasionally get people telling me how brilliant of a teacher Mum was and how much she steered their lives in their primary school years.

We were lucky in Australia. ‘Large family ism’ as in people feeling superior for having large families and looking down on the rest… has never really been a feature in Australian catholic life. I’ve only encountered that in the last few years on this board thankfully. So when someone suggests that small families are just selfish… I actually feel more offended for my Mother than myself. She took her life and went out into the world with her noble God given vocation and really changed lives. I look at her example as being a wonderful ‘yes’ to Gods calling, despite only having 4 children.

 

[Xantippe]

I didn’t ‘accuse’. He implied by his post that we should go out of our ‘comfort zone’ to have more children than we have discerned, as a spiritual virtue. I actually hate having to explain why I stopped at 3. It means having to talk about stillbirth and miscarriage and autism and marriage problems and lots of painful realities that I know exist in many peoples lives. It isn’t fair to have to defend your small family from someone who thinks you are just being selfish.

Right.

What is discernment for if you are supposed to prayerfully discern…and then just have more kids anyway?

It makes discernment a bit of a joke.

 

[Burt_Macklin]

I was going to let this go, but since you brought it up…

Check out my post 661. These “holy” families of the past were really just using an NFP method that was not all that effective.

Frankly, it’s a stupid statement. Why tie NFP to large families? Because it’s ineffective? Because those people (we people) are unable to abstain, to master urges? Probably it’s the bias that if you are holy, you use NFP and naturally want to have a large family.

I have four children, three living, ALL THREE IN COLLEGE RIGHT NOW. I love my kids and I have had a blast raising them. It’s also been a struggle at times.

There are so many issues around family size that I think we should all sheath the swords and leave family size discussions alone. No one ever gains from them.

I’ll go with option a) because it’s ineffective. If someone were to tell me they used NFP to limit their family to only two children I just wouldn’t believe them. I wouldn’t expect any method as susceptible to human error as NFP to work for any extended period of time. It’s just not the way people work.

 

[Convert_in_99]

I’m confused why it matters if you have no kids, or a dozen so long as you aren’t using contraception. The Catechism makes it clear that it is up to the couple and to God whether or not to have a child in their current physical, psychological, emotional, and financial situation. If your situation allows you to have a large family, go for it. If not, then use NFP without guilt or shame. I think its really that simple.

 

[Xantippe]

I’m confused why it matters if you have no kids, or a dozen so long as you aren’t using contraception. The Catechism makes it clear that it is up to the couple and to God whether or not to have a child in their current physical, psychological, emotional, and financial situation. If your situation allows you to have a large family, go for it. If not, then use NFP without guilt or shame. I think its really that simple.

Yes.