Why do most people ignore the Church's teaching on contraception?

[Abu]

LongingSoul #842
Great quotations of facts!

 

[LongingSoul]

LongingSoul #842
Great quotations of facts!

I know you love a good quote, Abu!

 

[gardenswithkids]

Okay, I am officially done with this thread. Apparently no one can express personal experiences without getting misunderstood and jumped on. If they are misunderstood and then try to apologize and explain themselves, they are ignored and just keep getting chastised. I don’t get it. I’m afraid to say anything at all because I don’t know whom I might offend. :imsorry:

I’m just going to for a while and see where this goes. But posting is apparently inherently dangerous. :nunchuk:

:blackeye:
May I join you in your bag of popcorn?

I hope you don’t mind sharing with me. You seem like a kind, generous sort of person.

 

[Convert_in_99]

:blackeye:
May I join you in your bag of popcorn?

I hope you don’t mind sharing with me. You seem like a kind, generous sort of person.

Me too!

I’m over the content, it’s gotten quite repetitive. I’m just seeing how long this thread winds up getting lol! Cause I’m a and find interest and humor in things like this. #846 and counting…

 

[PaulinVA]

Well, I refuse to post something just to increase the post count on a thread.

 

[Convert_in_99]

Well, I refuse to post something just to increase the post count on a thread.

I’m not being mean, I just wish we all could agree to disagree. There is nothing more to be said, we’ve cycled through the same conversation a dozen times and everyone is still fighting and hurting each other. Enough is enough!

 

[LongingSoul]

I’m not being mean, I just wish we all could agree to disagree. There is nothing more to be said, we’ve cycled through the same conversation a dozen times and everyone is still fighting and hurting each other. Enough is enough!

Topics like these have deeper theological currents to them. Contraception and periodic continence have been the subject of tug of war discussion since forever. I actually appreciate the passion because people often reveal the deeper sources of their ideas and beliefs when making as powerful argument as they can. Many think that Humanae Vitae was strictly defining contraception but in fact there was a strong argument at the time that NFP was contraception as well. Humanae Vitae to that end, gave glowing endorsement to the practice of periodic continence in limiting family size.

Today we can still feel the resistance of the traditional objectors to NFP when they object to anyone promoting its virtues and are only willing it considered a mere last resort in crisis.

That has to continue to be redressed when it arises if we are ever to have a credible argument against contraception. Our descendants depend on us passing on the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth to them!

Just for the sake of citations… Humanae Vitae.

1. Our words would not be an adequate expression of the thought and solicitude of the Church, Mother and Teacher of all peoples, if, after having recalled men to the observance and respect of the divine law regarding matrimony, they did not also support mankind in the honest regulation of birth amid the difficult conditions which today afflict families and peoples. The Church, in fact, cannot act differently toward men than did the Redeemer. She knows their weaknesses, she has compassion on the multitude, she welcomes sinners. But at the same time she cannot do otherwise than teach the law. For it is in fact the law of human life restored to its native truth and guided by the Spirit of God. (24) Observing the Divine Law.
2. The teaching of the Church regarding the proper regulation of birth is a promulgation of the law of God Himself. And yet there is no doubt that to many it will appear not merely difficult but even impossible to observe. Now it is true that like all good things which are outstanding for their nobility and for the benefits which they confer on men, so this law demands from individual men and women, from families and from human society, a resolute purpose and great endurance. Indeed it cannot be observed unless God comes to their help with the grace by which the goodwill of men is sustained and strengthened. But to those who consider this matter diligently it will indeed be evident that this endurance enhances man’s dignity and confers benefits on human society.

Value of Self-Discipline

1. The right and lawful ordering of birth demands, first of all, that spouses fully recognize and value the true blessings of family life and that they acquire complete mastery over themselves and their emotions. For if with the aid of reason and of free will they are to control their natural drives, there can be no doubt at all of the need for self-denial. Only then will the expression of love, essential to married life, conform to right order. This is especially clear in the practice of periodic continence. Self-discipline of this kind is a shining witness to the chastity of husband and wife and, far from being a hindrance to their love of one another, transforms it by giving it a more truly human character. And if this self-discipline does demand that they persevere in their purpose and efforts, it has at the same time the salutary effect of enabling husband and wife to develop to their personalities and to be enriched with spiritual blessings. For it brings to family life abundant fruits of tranquility and peace. It helps in solving difficulties of other kinds. It fosters in husband and wife thoughtfulness and loving consideration for one another. It helps them to repel inordinate self-love, which is the opposite of charity. It arouses in them a consciousness of their responsibilities. And finally, it confers upon parents a deeper and more effective influence in the education of their children. As their children grow up, they develop a right sense of values and achieve a serene and harmonious use of their mental and physical powers.

 

[Convert_in_99]

It seems to me that the great majority of us on this thread are in agreance that contraception is morally wrong. So there is no argument there. Some people choose to use NFP, others not. Neither is sinful, to use or not use NFP. We are all on the same team here, we all agree with the Church that contraception is wrong. The rest is not an issue as there is nothing morally wrong with either choice.

I’m done trying to bring sense and peace to this circular argument. I’m out.

 

[jmjZelie]

Funny!

With my third, there’s been an explosion of single-serving items (applesauce, baby yogurts, peanut butter, Nutella, soft cheeses in individually wrapped wedges, individually wrapped ice cream treats, etc.), things which had previously never entered my home. I was brought up to have very moralistic attitudes toward prepared food and single serving food, so it’s like I’m looking into a complete stranger’s fridge.

Moralistic attitude toward prepared food and single serving food? Do I even want to know what that means?

With the exception of the ice cream, I cannot imagine a mother having any objection to providing her children with such foods.

I can’t see how you are doing anything less than excellent stocking your home with those foods. Those are healthy (again, excepting ice cream) and the single serving sizes encourages self-sufficiency for little hands, who cannot easily manage huge glass jars of applesauce or PB or huge tubs of yogurt or huge blocks of cheese.

 

[pensmama87]

Moralistic attitude toward prepared food and single serving food? Do I even want to know what that means?

With the exception of the ice cream, I cannot imagine a mother having any objection to providing her children with such foods.

I can’t see how you are doing anything less than excellent stocking your home with those foods. Those are healthy (again, excepting ice cream) and the single serving sizes encourages self-sufficiency for little hands, who cannot easily manage huge glass jars of applesauce or PB or huge tubs of yogurt or huge blocks of cheese.

Usually it’s about waste (either the extra packaging or cost, or both.) Or that buying convenience items means you’re lazy (or think you’re too good to have to put in effort for the simple task of dishing out.)

People get weird about a LOT of morally neutral stuff.

 

[Xantippe]

Usually it’s about waste (either the extra packaging or cost, or both.) Or that buying convenience items means you’re lazy (or think you’re too good to have to put in effort for the simple task of dishing out.)

People get weird about a LOT of morally neutral stuff.

Yeah.

The hygiene side of it is what finally pushed me into getting individual tubs of Nutella and peanut butter for Baby Girl–she’s a double-dipper.

Also, I buy STAR WARS YOGURT. My mom never would have bought tiny yogurts with cartoon or movie characters.

 

[Xantippe]

You have also stated NFP works for you. You’ve said even with pumping and never physically putting a baby to the breast to nurse you are cycle free. You’ve had years of successfully avoiding pregnancy, including a few years of marriage before your first was born avoiding pregnancy. If you had not had success with NFP, you would be faced with a major decision, either switch to ABC as a great deal of people do, or you would you need to find the way to accept that life was not going to go the way you planned. You could either wallow in self pity or you could find the way to enjoy the life you had. Switching to ABC is against church teaching. It is not acceptable in our faith. But what other option is there besides learning to adjust to a life that is difficult?

I have never seen big families sold as the cure all of all troubles. I have seen a lot of posters here that say they are. I have seen people reaffirm that large families are a sign of generosity and I have said that large families can be a beautiful way of life and not the horrible things society tells us we are. I have never advocated for everyone having just a few more kids than they would like. I have said that people should accept each new life as God’s gift when NFP failures happen. I have said that NFP works for some people and probably that is because God sees that they need it to work for them. It doesn’t work for some of us and I really think that probably that is because God is in control and He sees a need for a new life in our family.

I don’t get how every thread turns into a debate about family size. No one has stated that big families are better than small families. I even mentioned my sister has no children and her family is a beautiful example of Accepting God’s will. She is able to do things she may not have accomplished if she had been the mother of a large family. Her expectations at marriage were to have 6 kids. She’s ended up with 0. She had to accept that, just as I have had to accept my 2 planned turned into 10. I had to accept that my youngest two would be still born. And I do believe God had a plan there and I had a very tough lesson to learn from that. Life is brief and fleeting. Life is not guaranteed. Life hurts sometimes. We can’t always have what we want.

I do wonder why if a woman is not happy bring a SAHM she doesn’t get an outside job. My mother worked and the church has no teaching that a mom must be home 24/7. I worked for several years outside the home and off and on since then as the need arises. I prefer being home. I don’t like leaving my kids with other people. It is my preference. My mom worked nearly 40 years in a medical lab. We went to school and my dad worked nights when mom was home. It was not wrong of her to keep her job. Being a parent is hard. There isn’t any need to make it even harder by choosing to stay at home if you don’t find satisfaction in it. It is not against church teaching to work outside the home if it gives a person satisfaction. It is wrong to choose contraception no matter what.

I’m sorry you are struggling. We all have them. No one is criticizing your family size or your use of NFP. As I’ve said before, perhaps God sees your struggles and agrees you need a break.

1. There really isn’t a way around having a life that is difficult–none of us get out of this thing alive.
2. “I don’t get how every thread turns into a debate about family size.” I don’t think that they do.
3. I would like to have an outside job and that is the plan, but I am waiting for my youngest (who has an awkward birthday two months after the cut-off) to get old enough for full-day pre-K. If all goes well, she’ll go to pre-K three days a week (she’ll be almost 5 when she starts), I’ll do H & R Block’s tax school, and then I’ll work part-time during tax season from then on to cover her school tuition and contribute to college savings for the big kids (as our oldest will hopefully be headed to college in 5 years). That’s been the plan for some time–it’s just that that the start of pre-K is a year and a half from now.
4. I know there’s no church teaching that mothers have to stay home, but I would feel stupid inconveniencing my whole family and going to work just to pay for childcare (although, in a severe enough case, that might be worthwhile).

I have joined a couple of Meetups and am hoping that will get me out of the house more.

1. I like babies and school kids an awful lot, but Baby Girl has been a toddler for a long, long time now, and there’s probably nearly another year of her having a toddler personality. She’s probably the best toddler I’ve ever had in terms of life skills, but she’s got to do everything herself and each step takes forever, which contributes to me not feeling like it’s worthwhile to leave the house. Also, like my other kids (who trained at nearly 4 and nearly 4.5), Baby Girl is not an early potty trainer. I have been trying to get her to use the potty for a year now, with no visible progress.

I did see something that perked me up a couple days ago. We were at an open gym a few days ago and there were a bunch of adorable 4 and 5-year-old girls running around–so chatty, so social, and so cooperative! They were quite enchanting. I heard the ringleader of the group tell the others, “Now we’re going to go to the hospital to have our babies!”

 

[Rau]

…I don’t trust NFP. I’ve stopped charting and have zero intention to a) use NFP and b) have anymore children ever again.

I cannot take the anxiety, stress and depression both have caused.

There is still the marital debt to consider. Hubby and I are struggling with this big time.

Not sure what your last sentence means - do you mean you are abstaining entirely?

Regarding trust in NFP, would you trust it to be able to help you choose one single day in the month when sex would/could not lead to pregnancy?

 

[Rau]

… NFP - This is no different than barrier and other non chemical methods of birth control. Yes, it can be used to conceive as well as to prevent pregnancy. The bottom line is 99% of people using it are using it as birth control.

This is nonsense. Aside from those using it to help conceive, 100% of the remainder are using it as “birth control” which is perfectly fine. Abstaining from sex to avoid conception (with proper cause) is perfectly fine.

• The Church is going to tell me what to do with my married sex life? Yeah, OK, maybe when they stop hiding there own demons on this subject I’ll listen.

I doubt it. I predict you will simply choose another reason not to listen.

 

[Rau]

My honest opinion is that I do not believe that even abc closes a couple to procreation if it is the Will of Almighty God. Because God is all powerful, a virgin conceived a child, and Elizabeth conceived John the Baptist in her old age. Neither abstinence nor advanced age prevented these two women from conceiving because it was God’s Will that they do so. Maybe a couple desires to plan the birth of their children until after they finish their educations or desires that their children not exceed a number for which they can responsibly provide - I believe that even if they diligently practice some form of bc it will not prevail if it is God’s Will that they conceive. It just seems obvious to me.

However, the observation that God is more powerful than man is not relevant to the morality of man’s actions.

 

[Rau]

A child is a gift from God, and rejecting that gift is an insult to God. Once conception occurs, God’s Will is evident. Many children have been conceived inspite of birth control measures of all sorts. I believe it is wrong to use abortion as birth control.

Really? Every event in the world is willed by God? Or is it that it was allowed by God?

 

[Rose71]

Hi Matthew - from many pages ago!

With respect, I think you may have misinterpreted my post. I am not suggesting that the Church changes her teachings to accomodate couples who struggle with NFP / abstinance. Not at all!

I am saying that many couples in this situation find fellow Catholics i.e. the Church, woefully short on compassion and practical advice. What most couples seem to get is conflicting advice, leading towards real confusion and anguish because, to start with, any couple who bother to ask the question and seek guidance in the first place must surely be genuinely seeking Christ? If they weren’t that bothered, they wouldn’t bother to contact Catholics in a position of responsibility, or post on places like CAF.

When I say ‘The Church’ I mean this in the widest sense - I mean all of us who call ourselves Catholics and in particular NFP advisers, Catholic GPs, Parish Priests and those offering Catholic pre-marraige and marriage guidance programmes.

I love the canary analogy - absolutely spot on! If we lived in a society that provided support and care through the extended family and promoted real Christian values, then having larger families - whether planned or NFP-based accidents - would be something to celebrate, rather than approach with trepidation for many people.

I made a point in an earlier post and I’m going to make it again The question is “why do most people ignore the Church’s teaching?” It isn’t “what is the Church’s teaching?”

I’m going to borrow the dead canary, if I may?

We know the canary is dead. We know how the canary died. It is an ex-canary. It has ceased to be. Let’s not flog a dead canary, or post long, scientific explanation about the effects of poisinous gas on canaries and why puting the canary in the mine was not a good idea (for poor Colin the Canary) We know it was a silly idea!

Let’s not post tales of what happened to Clarrence, Christopher, Clara, Crispin and Caludia (Colin’s siblings who also perished)

Above all - let’s try to keep the discussion about why anyone thought it was a good idea to put a canary down the mine in the first place. What were the miners looking for? Why did they feel they needed it?

:newidea:What can we do to change a society and an economic structure that can only function if canaries die to support our way of life?

Before I go - thanks Mark, for putting forward the differernt experience of your family. I don’t think we are comparing like with like. I was offering an example from the UK, as to how the outlook and priorities of non-Church-going Catholics have evolved and changed. Maybe I should have made that clearer.

Toodle-pip everyone - I’m off to speak English in a way I can understand

 

[Rau]

The better description for following the Church’s teaching is Natural Birth Regulation (NBR) by abstinence within marriage, for those who have a grave need. There is the availability of Natural Birth Regulation which uses the fact that women were designed so that almost 2/3rds of the time sex is inherently infertile.

Of course the real challenge arises for those persons who (as they understand it) have such irregular cycles that they have “no idea” when they are fertile vs. infertile.

If a couple could identify with confidence just 1 or 2 days per month of infertility -would the pro-contraception argument be made so vehemently?

 

[Rau]

…Remember Peter and the rock? Anyway, you, me and the other members of the church community are collectively the active body of Christ on Earth. It’s hard to think that the Commission and the majority of Christ’s earthly body have it wrong. Some things are so obvious that even the layman can see where the pope’s got it wrong.

Did Jesus get it wrong when he gave teaching authority to Peter? Or is it your understanding that said authority was given to the followers individually, collectively, or perhaps to the “majority position”?

Whilst I may struggle to understand or internalise some doctrine, it never occurs to me that it must be wrong as a consequence of my greater insights, or of some committee.

 

[Rau]

We’ve had popes cover up the rape our children by men ordained in her churches. We’ve had popes father illegitimate children. We’ve had popes sanctify crusades. We’ve had popes condone inquisitions. We’ve had popes sell bishop appointments. We had popes turn a blind eye to the abuses and deaths of millions. And we can’t forget the pope who raped a virgin and the pope who poisoned his predecessor. We’ve even had popes peddle indulgences. Let’s just say, God gave us a brain, a conscience, a soul and the guidance of the Holy Spirit for a reason.

Jesus did not State that Peter’s successors would all be God men, or be free of sin. He just undertook to assure the validity of Church teachings.