Why do Muslims believe that the Modern New Testament is corrupted?

[dolphinlove]

Planten,
First you say this:

The colored part is right and understood and correct (True).

In response to this:

Originally Posted by KittyGabriel View Post
They do not consider it corrupt. They just don’t believe that Jesus was the son of God. They believe that he was a prophet. So in essence, they disagree with alot of the New Testament.

Then in another post you say this:

A short reply would be that Muslims do not consider the bibleNT as completely false or completely corrupted. Bible is not a first hand documnt from God. It is man made and carries (describes) the life history of an important man of God (Not God of man) Jesus.
Muslim do not consider bible to be completely corrupted but changes by human hands are being made in bible for its improvement. So we welcome these improvements and we all have to wait for some time until the word of God is fully improved. Wait until it appears in a fully improved form.

So what is it?? You say in one post Muslims do not consider the NT as completely false or completely corrupted, which means you *do *find it corrupted.Then in another you say do not consider it corrupted, so what is it?

 

[Sam_777]

They do not consider it corrupt.

No, its corrupted according to Quran, Hadith, and Muslims’ Sharea:

(Quran 5:13):
“But because of their breach of their Covenant, We cursed them, and made their hearts grow hard: they change the words from their (right) places and forget a good part of the Message that was sent them, nor wilt thou cease to find them - barring a few - ever bent on (new) deceits: but forgive them, and overlook (their misdeeds): for Allah loveth those who are kind.”

Sahih Bukhari, Volume 9, Book 92, Number 461:
" Narrated Ubaidullah:
Ibn 'Abbas said, "Why do you ask the people of the scripture about anything while your Book (Quran) which has been revealed to Allah’s Apostle is newer and the latest? You read it pure, undistorted and unchanged, and Allah has told you that the people of the scripture (Jews and Christians) changed their scripture and distorted it, and wrote the scripture with their own hands and said, ‘It is from Allah,’ to sell it for a little gain. Does not the knowledge which has come to you prevent you from asking them about anything? No, by Allah, we have never seen any man from them asking you regarding what has been revealed to you!"

Also see this site:
answering-christianity.com

 

[Angelos]

The colored part is right and understood and correct (True). But the later part is not understood. What message the person is trying to give to the catholics?. Catholic means faithful. I wish there was no Roman matter in the Catholics.

Does CATHOLIC really mean faithful in the Islamic dictionary? All the secular dictionaries I have checked do not define the word Catholic as faithful!

 

[Angelos]

The true Islamic teachings tell the history of the Jews and the christians, Moses, Jesus and all. It is in favor of the two religions Judaism and christianity. But at the same time Islam upholds civil liberty, the liberty to chose ones faith. There is no compulsion in any religion.( Quran 2:255)( There is no obscene word of disgrace against any prophet in the Quran. Nothing bad against Jesus or Moses or Mary.)

Your Koran has other verses that abrogate the verse you quoted:

Surah 3:85 And whoso seeketh as religion other than the Surrender (to Allah) it will not be accepted from him, and he will be a loser in the Hereafter.

Surah 9:29 Fight against such of **those who have been given the Scripture **as believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, and forbid not that which Allah hath forbidden by His messenger, and follow not the Religion of Truth, until they pay the tribute readily, being brought low.

Surah 61:9 He it is Who hath sent His messenger with the guidance and the religion of truth, that He may make it conqueror of all religion however much idolaters may be averse.

More, the supposition that there is nothing bad about Biblical figures in the Koran does not necessarily mean that everything written in the Koran is theologically true and of divine origin. The Koran mostly goes against the basic tenets of Judaism and Christianity stated in their Scripture, which suffices to make it an unreliable book with false teacings.

**
The problem is that the other religions do not teach such good things which are essential for any faith. The liberty to chose ones religion is of importance to all God loving people. Islam suggests such liberty and in return gives up all ( political power etc) for the sake of that golden principle. Any one can be the ruler.**

These sentences indicate your ignorance of the Koran verses that consider ONLY Islam as the true religion of Allah and ask Muslims to financially exploit people not embracing Islam!

**
The bible is here with us. Can any of the evangelsits please bring out one such sentence which should uphold the freedom to chose the religion? Please inform us. Thanks.**

The Bible, unlike the Koran, never claims to establish the true religion on earth! Therefore, the Bible has no verses commanding its believers to punish infidels and humiliate them through political victories.

 

[Angelos]

A short reply would be that Muslims do not consider the bibleNT as completely false or completely corrupted. Bible is not a first hand documnt from God. It is man made and carries (describes) the life history of an important man of God (Not God of man) Jesus.
Muslim do not consider bible to be completely corrupted but changes by human hands are being made in bible for its improvement. So we welcome these improvements and we all have to wait for some time until the word of God is fully improved. Wait until it appears in a fully improved form.

How can you convince us that your theory is true and trustworthy unless you can show the so-called improved verses without any reference to the Koran? What makes you Muslims determine which parts of the Bible are corrupted and which parts of it are authentic? Do not waste your time by saying that the Koran reveals the corrupted parts because we do not believe in the Koran, which we shall never consider a checklist for our Bible.

Further, we Christians cannot assert that everything written in the Koran is false and the corrupted version of the teachings/narratives in the Bible. What would you do if I tried to prove that the Koran is but the distorted version of the Bible through comparisons determining only the Bible as a checklist?

More, Allah is reported to criticise some people for believing in the Koran only partly:

Surah 15:91-92. Those who break the Qur’an into parts. Them, by thy Lord, We shall question, every one.

Isn’t it unfair for your Allah to ask Jews and Christians to endorse the Koran in its entirety and simultaneously command Muslims to believe only in some parts of the Bible?

 

[BHTech]

**Good question. First may I ask you about the bible. What is the bible for you? Is it the OT and NT? or is it only the NT? Is it limited to the four gospels only? Do the four gospels have any hand (importance) in the bible? Please reply to these few questions and then we will get along to your querry about the proofs of corruption in the bible and proofs will be from outside of the Quran.

First let us describe the bible please. Thanks.**

No thank you friend. The subject line is “Why do Muslims believe that the Modern New Testament is corrupted?” Stick to the subject line and for that matter to the questions that I ask. Christianity was here long before Islam. You are a Muslim on Catholic web site, I am a Christian at home. I have rephrased them for you to make it easier for you to answer:

1. Other than the Koran which I do not accept, can you provide me with a historical source that shows that the New Testament (all 27 books) has been corrupted?
2. As a follow up to that question please provide me with a source other than the Koran that shows that the truth was lost/wasted to the Christians/Jews?

Blessings

BHTech

 

[planten]

No thank you friend. The subject line is “Why do Muslims believe that the Modern New Testament is corrupted?” Stick to the subject line and for that matter to the questions that I ask. Christianity was here long before Islam. You are a Muslim on Catholic web site, I am a Christian at home. I have rephrased them for you to make it easier for you to answer:

1. Other than the Koran which I do not accept, can you provide me with a historical source that shows that the New Testament (all 27 books) has been corrupted?
2. As a follow up to that question please provide me with a source other than the Koran that shows that the truth was lost/wasted to the Christians/Jews?

Blessings

BHTech

** That is not good. My questions are relevant to your querries. You have simply replaced the word “Bible” by the Modern New Testament. The case is the same. My questions still stand. You should give the answers to my question. There is no new testament with christians. The new and latest testament is the Quran which is with the Muslims.

So it would be better to stick to your bible. And please reply to my questions mentioned in post #156 carefully. Thanks.**

 

[BHTech]

** That is not good. My questions are relevant to your querries. You have simply replaced the word “Bible” by the Modern New Testament. The case is the same. My questions still stand. You should give the answers to my question. There is no new testament with christians. The new and latest testament is the Quran which is with the Muslims.

So it would be better to stick to your bible. And please reply to my questions mentioned in post #156 carefully. Thanks.**

No you reply to my question first. I asked you the question. You don’t answer a question by asking another question, unless you have no answer to my question.

Blessings

BHTech

 

[BHTech]

There is no new testament with christians. The new and latest testament is the Quran which is with the Muslims.

What do you mean by there is no new testament with Christians? Please elaborate.

To all the Catholics out there, has any one seen a Bible composed of the Old Testament and the koran as the New Testament? Is such a book in print?

Blessings

BHTech

 

[planten]

No you reply to my question first. I asked you the question. You don’t answer a question by asking another question, unless you have no answer to my question.

Blessings

BHTech

**Sorry. You were asking a question about the bible (That is your new testament). i had to clarify the words before I could answer. I did not say that I will not answer. I have a right to ask you to clarify what you mean by certain things. Then answer to your question will hopefully be given.

But you have backed out on flimsy grounds. It appears that you had no answer to my querries. That means you had no real knowledge about your own questions.

Anyhow be kind and try to reply to my post if you need an answer. Thanks**.

 

[planten]

What do you mean by there is no new testament with Christians? Please elaborate.

To all the Catholics out there, has any one seen a Bible composed of the Old Testament and the koran as the New Testament? Is such a book in print?

Blessings

BHTech

**Dear BHTech, we Muslims, acting on the orders / advice of Jesus do not put new wine in old bottles (which you have done with your testament). I hope you understand, and please see Mathew 9:17, Luke 5:37/38, Mark 2:22. for reference.

Keep your new wine (testament) away from old wineskins. Our Quran is away from any old wineskins. I hope I am right. The advice is from the Jesus own words. How I love his words!! Beautiful. **

 

[Angelos]

**Dear BHTech, we Muslims, acting on the orders / advice of Jesus do not put new wine in old bottles (which you have done with your testament). I hope you understand, and please see Mathew 9:17, Luke 5:37/38, Mark 2:22. for reference.

Keep your new wine (testament) away from old wineskins. Our Quran is away from any old wineskins. I hope I am right. The advice is from the Jesus own words. How I love his words!! Beautiful. **

Could you please consider the following:

1) Where in the Bible (New Testament) does Jesus associate “putting new wine into new skins” with the supposed textaul corruption of the Old Testament???

Jesus actually says "Therefore every scribe instructed in the kingdom of heaven, is like to a man that is a householder, who bringeth forth out of his treasure new things and old. (Matthew 13:52). Therefore, Jesus’ statement about new wine poured into new wineskins has nothing to do with the traditional Islamic theories of biblical corruption.

2) Where in the New Testament does Jesus overtly predict or even imply that there will be new wine after Christianity and that it will be poured into new wineskins?

Thanks.

 

[BHTech]

Sorry. You were asking a question about the bible (That is your new testament).

No my Bible consists of the Old and New Testaments in one package. Not the New or the Old Testament separately.

i had to clarify the words before I could answer. I did not say that I will not answer. I have a right to ask you to clarify what you mean by certain things. Then answer to your question will hopefully be given.

You do have a right to have things clarified, but your original question was not one of clarification. Ask any Christian and the Bible is comprised of Old and New testaments, so unless you have a defective copy of a Bible, your initial question was irrelevant.

But you have backed out on flimsy grounds. It appears that you had no answer to my querries. That means you had no real knowledge about your own questions.

Anyhow be kind and try to reply to my post if you need an answer. Thanks

I can claim that you backed out like your fellow Muslim before you. He like you, never provided me with an answer. I wished to be provided with a document other than the koran showing the flaws in my Bible, but you are yet to provide it. However, having said that let us continue the conversation in the spirit of kindness and fellowship.

I am keeping my fingers crossed that you eventually will supply me with it.

Blessings

BHTech

 

[BHTech]

Dear BHTech, we Muslims, acting on the orders / advice of Jesus do not put new wine in old bottles (which you have done with your testament). I hope you understand, and please see Mathew 9:17, Luke 5:37/38, Mark 2:22. for reference.

No I do not understand. Can you kindly explain it to me, providing me with Jesus command to mohammed to prepare the koran 600+ years? Thank you.

Keep your new wine (testament) away from old wineskins. Our Quran is away from any old wineskins. I hope I am right. The advice is from the Jesus own words. How I love his words!! Beautiful.

I don’t think you are right. I think you are totally incorrect, but again I ask if you could provide me with Jesus words to that effect.

Blessings

BHTech

 

[planten]

No my Bible consists of the Old and New Testaments in one package. Not the New or the Old Testament separately.

You do have a right to have things clarified, but your original question was not one of clarification. Ask any Christian and the Bible is comprised of Old and New testaments, so unless you have a defective copy of a Bible, your initial question was irrelevant.

I can claim that you backed out like your fellow Muslim before you. He like you, never provided me with an answer. I wished to be provided with a document other than the koran showing the flaws in my Bible, but you are yet to provide it. However, having said that let us continue the conversation in the spirit of kindness and fellowship.

I am keeping my fingers crossed that you eventually will supply me with it.

Blessings

BHTech

**You have partly replied to my questions. You say that your bible consists of the new testament and the old testament. That is good. There is some reply. But please see my questions again just in case something is left out:

Originally Posted by planten
Good question. First may I ask you about the bible. What is the bible for you? Is it the OT and NT? or is it only the NT? Is it limited to the four gospels only? Do the four gospels have any hand (importance) in the bible? Please reply to these few questions and then we will get along to your querry about the proofs of corruption in the bible and proofs will be from outside of the Quran.**

First let us describe the bible please. Thanks.

You could have easily replied to my questions as i had asked you if your bible consisted of the OT and NT. Anyhow, thank you for replying very late half heartedly to my questions. I have lost all track of my chain of replies now.

 

[BHTech]

**You have partly replied to my questions. You say that your bible consists of the new testament and the old testament. That is good. There is some reply. But please see my questions again just in case something is left out:

Originally Posted by planten
Good question. First may I ask you about the bible. What is the bible for you? Is it the OT and NT? or is it only the NT? Is it limited to the four gospels only? Do the four gospels have any hand (importance) in the bible? Please reply to these few questions and then we will get along to your querry about the proofs of corruption in the bible and proofs will be from outside of the Quran.**

First let us describe the bible please. Thanks.

You could have easily replied to my questions as i had asked you if your bible consisted of the OT and NT. Anyhow, thank you for replying very late half heartedly to my questions. I have lost all track of my chain of replies now.

Ok. Now would you be so kind as to answer my original question by providing me proof without using your koran that my Bible is corrupt?

Thank you.

BHTech

 

[Stephen0]

Planten, I am thankful that you are willing to dialogue with those of us who are Catholic. Putting myself in your shoes, I would find it hard to try to defend myself on a Muslim website from so many inquiries. Of course, even though I don’t agree with your rational, I appreciate the insights you offer coming from your prospective. However, I would advise you to be careful in your reply to the subject of this thread. This is because your replies contain an Aristotelian fallacy known as a Tu Quoque fallacy. In a logical dialogue, your reply is false if you try to change the subject and instead bring up some other supposed problem that the original post never addressed. Please don’t make the mistake of becoming a victim of such an ancient trap in logic. Anyhow, you are articulate and I appreciate your effort.

 

[planten]

**

Planten, I am thankful that you are willing to dialogue with those of us who are Catholic. Putting myself in your shoes, I would find it hard to try to defend myself on a Muslim website from so many inquiries. Of course, even though I don’t agree with your rational, I appreciate the insights you offer coming from your prospective. However, I would advise you to be careful in your reply to the subject of this thread. This is because your replies contain an Aristotelian fallacy known as a Tu Quoque fallacy. In a logical dialogue, your reply is false if you try to change the subject and instead bring up some other supposed problem that the original post never addressed. Please don’t make the mistake of becoming a victim of such an ancient trap in logic. Anyhow, you are articulate and I appreciate your effort.

StephenO, thanks for your advice. I am aware of that principle which is not from the bible. So must I follow that?? There is no need. I have another principle to follow. I do not accuse any one of something of which i am guilty myself.

The christians should please not accuse Islam or muhammad for anything that they guilty of by their own books. Also I would prefer that their argument or proof should be from their book i.e. bible NT. It should not be that the bible not having any suitable reply, the persons here start generating a reply from themselves.

I find the catholic forum very co-operative and well managed. I have no complaint. It is one of the best forums that I know. Thanks. I will try to adjust myself to your advice as much as I can. Thank you.**

 

[Stephen0]

Planten, the reason that I originally posted the subject was because I am trying to grasp why Muslim scholars would state that the New Testament is corrupted by alteration when it can clearly be shown logically that it is impossible that the New Testament that Muhammad accepted as genuine could have been altered after he set his seal of approval on it. Lucky, for us there are many eariler copies of this NT around that clearly date by several hundred years before the Prophet. They in turn, when translated by scholars offer the same stories and dogmas as we accept as Catholics teaching today without acception. Naturally, these cover such subjects, as Jesus being the Son of God, the concept of the Trinity, and Christ’s murder and resurrection from the dead. Then we wonder why Muhammad could accept our book as truth and then turn around and teach against it. There is a logic flaw here somewhere. Either a statement is a truth or it is a deception.

 

[planten]

Planten, the reason that I originally posted the subject was because I am trying to grasp why Muslim scholars would state that the New Testament is corrupted by alteration when it can clearly be shown logically that it is impossible that the New Testament that Muhammad accepted as genuine could have been altered after he set his seal of approval on it. Lucky, for us there are many eariler copies of this NT around that clearly date by several hundred years before the Prophet. They in turn, when translated by scholars offer the same stories and dogmas as we accept as Catholics teaching today without acception. Naturally, these cover such subjects, as Jesus being the Son of God, the concept of the Trinity, and Christ’s murder and resurrection from the dead. Then we wonder why Muhammad could accept our book as truth and then turn around and teach against it. There is a logic flaw here somewhere. Either a statement is a truth or it is a deception.

**Thanks for your clarification. The Quran tells us that Jesus was given a book which is called Injeel. So there is no doubt that Jesus was given a book. The Quran also tells us that Jesus was a prophet of God. The bible NT also approves it.

There have been many prophets of God before Jesus. How could a prophet be God? Please think about it. A prophet of God will never say that he is a God. That is another good principle.

Jesus never talked about Trinity. He however mentioned himself as son of God which would have to be symbolic. he mentioned the Holy spirit too. But did Jesus tell any one to combine these three into the form of a God. They can all remain separate… We Muslims believe in Jesus as Jesus. We believe in Holy Spirit as Holy spirit. We believe in God as a God.

We dont say that the three are themselves God. And the mystery of three in one and one in three is another complication. Even by reading the bible NT, the four gospels which tell the real life history of jesus, we do not find any clear mention of Trinity or a Triune God. Also nothing about eating the flesh of swines and nothing about abolishing the Sabath and circumcision… These things have come from somewhere before 305 A.D.

To cut this matter short, May I inform you that the Quran is telling us everything. The teachings of Jesus had been altered by the time the Quran was revealed in 610 A.D. It is the Quran which is telling us that the christians, after getting the true teachings, went astray. It is written in Quran that the people made amendments in their book (Bible).

So there is no harm. The prophet Muhammad admitted the righteousness of Jesus and his struggle. That he was given the message from God. And it was told to the prophet that the people of the book made changes in their books. This was a news from Allah. It was not an idea of our prophet. It was revealed to him.**