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Hadi
Guest
well said Planten
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Lev23
Guest
**Romans 11:1-2
I ask then: Did God reject his people? By no means! I am an Israelite myself, a descendant of Abraham, from the tribe of Benjamin. God did not reject his people, whom he foreknew.
Romans 11:11
Again I ask: Did they stumble so as to fall beyond recovery? Not at all! Rather, because of their transgression, salvation has come to the Gentiles to make Israel envious.
Romans 11:25-27
I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in. And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written:
“The deliverer will come from Zion;
he will turn godlessness away from Jacob.
And this is my covenant with them
when I take away their sins.”**
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wwolverine
Guest
Thanks to all who have joined the discussion. I have seen even some muslims have joined the discussion and hope they will be here to further this question.
What I initially wanted to know the reason for these problems, Quran mentions Israel in all the verses above, that means Israel has existed even during Mohammeds time. In the 4th century. Unless mohammed is talking about some other israel.
If this israel existed than, where was it? And if it existed in the same place as now there where was palestine? And has there been enmity with muslims and Israel since the time of Mohammed and why?
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planten
Guest
wwolverine, please understand that Israel is the title of jacob son of Issac. You could call it the name of Jacob. The covenant was with the children of Israel, i.e. children of Jacob. Israel was not the name of any land at that time, originally. In the time of King David or before that the kingdom or state of the Jews was divided in two parts.
It is possible that one of those states was called Israel.
The Quran mentions the children of Israel, not just Israel. Please see below:
WE can say that the children of Israel are children of Jacob. WE could possibly say that it means the Jews, Jewish people.
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planten
Guest
Thanks Hadi. That was good of you to comment. Wassalam.
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East_Anglican
Guest
So what’s your sig about then?
As agiosotheos said
Basically what agiosotheos and I are saying is The Church is Israel and Israel is The Church.
I don’t think you’ve realised this trdchubi but you’ve fallen for a ‘protestant’ ‘heresy’
The actual scripture says
Ephesians 2:12
remember that at that time you were separate from Christ, excluded from citizenship in Israel and foreigners to the covenants of the promise, without hope and without God in the world.
Read it again. We were excluded from citizenship in Israel but because we are in Christ, we are not excluded anymore.
Because The Church is the bride of Christ, if God had a separate covenant with the Jews, he’d be a bigamist.
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Jehoshua
Guest
As to plantens earlier post asking why Israel hasn’t built a "house of prayer for all nations’ known generally as the Temple there is indeed external pressure preventing that.
The Jewish temple for the jews is the place of the earthly presence of The Lord, it must be built only on the specific spot where the holy of holies is, where Gods presence is manifest. Currently that spot is occupied by the dome of the rock. Incidentally it is obvious that replacing the Dome of Rock would have some violent reaction from the muslim world. In fact it is said that the most likely cause of WWIII would be the destruction of the dome of the rock. Now considering Israel depite muslim propoganda is in fact not a warmongering imperialist power i think they would prefer not to start a major conflict.
So you can see outside pressure prevents the full implementation of Jewish law since hte temple, central to the jewish faith cannot be rebuilt due to the violent reaction that would result from muslims over a site they appropriated from the jews in the first place.
As to contemporary observance of Jewish law, it is up to the believer to follow the commandments of the Torah. If the state of Israel doesn;t want to implement a theocracy so be it. Unlike the islamic world Israel doesn;t believe in forcing conformism of belief. (Saudi Arabia is a prominent example of a muslim theocracy, if i wanted to wear a crucifix there id be arrested)
Also despite your words that muslims should not hate Israel etc etc, i think the majority of muslims would disagree with you, and i believe the Quran has several statements which would contradict your view. (particularily in regards to non-abrahamic religions in regards to Islam being peaceful)
The Jewish temple for the jews is the place of the earthly presence of The Lord, it must be built only on the specific spot where the holy of holies is, where Gods presence is manifest. Currently that spot is occupied by the dome of the rock. Incidentally it is obvious that replacing the Dome of Rock would have some violent reaction from the muslim world. In fact it is said that the most likely cause of WWIII would be the destruction of the dome of the rock. Now considering Israel depite muslim propoganda is in fact not a warmongering imperialist power i think they would prefer not to start a major conflict.
So you can see outside pressure prevents the full implementation of Jewish law since hte temple, central to the jewish faith cannot be rebuilt due to the violent reaction that would result from muslims over a site they appropriated from the jews in the first place.
As to contemporary observance of Jewish law, it is up to the believer to follow the commandments of the Torah. If the state of Israel doesn;t want to implement a theocracy so be it. Unlike the islamic world Israel doesn;t believe in forcing conformism of belief. (Saudi Arabia is a prominent example of a muslim theocracy, if i wanted to wear a crucifix there id be arrested)
Also despite your words that muslims should not hate Israel etc etc, i think the majority of muslims would disagree with you, and i believe the Quran has several statements which would contradict your view. (particularily in regards to non-abrahamic religions in regards to Islam being peaceful)
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trdchubi
Guest
God does not break promises, even when we fail Him with our unfaithfulness and ungratefulness. This, I think, also applies to the Chosen People whom He revealed Himself on the first place.
God unlike men keeps his entire covenant, even if he is dealing with stubborn and disobedient people. God does not nor cannot revoke a covenant, for The Triune Spirit is not capricious nor does God rely on man to feel validated. In fact, this will just make him imperfect and a sham.
If God break his covenant with the Jews, what would stop Him from breaking His covenant with the Church?
For if we go on the premise that God will not keep His covenant with Israel, because of their infidelities and rejection of the Promised Messiah, what hope then is there for the Gentiles — The Church?
I believe when God made His covenant with the Jewish people, He did so in** FULL **knowledge that these same people would reject His Beloved Son, Jesus. For unlike man God knows the outcome before He reveals and establishes His covenants with the Israelites and also with the Gentiles.
I believe in an Ever-faithful God and the State of Israel is one evidence that says He is indeed.
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trdchubi
Guest
It may sound like that but NO.
Don’t you think you are also falling on the idea of Suppersessionism that drove the nazis, the crusades etc. to treat the Jewish people as an inferior race and replace them as the New Chosen People of God?
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Sam_777
Guest
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trdchubi
Guest
When God affirmed they were chosen in the OT Bible, I believe it still holds.
Yes, I reject the false teaching of dual-covenant theology, or the idea that Jews will remains faithful to the Torah in order to be saved and the Christians are saved through Christ.
I believe the Jews must attain salvation through Jesus the Messiah just like the Christians.
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East_Anglican
Guest
As the original covenant was made with Abraham and Abraham’s seed and we who belong to Christ are Abraham’s seed the covenant hasn’t been broken.
The Church is Mount Zion, The Joy of he Whole Earth.
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trdchubi
Guest
Yes and that is one major tenet of replacement theology
The Argument:
To be real children of Abraham, one doesn’t need to belong to the nation or people of Israel but to have faith in Jesus Christ. Sonship to Abraham is seen only in spiritual, not national terms which is taken from:
Rebuttal:
While this is a wonderful inclusionary promise for Gentiles, this verse does not exclude the Jewish people from their original covenant, promise and blessing as the natural seed of Abraham. The idea with the verse simply joins the Gentile Christians to what God had already started with Israel.
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East_Anglican
Guest
For the true spiritual Israel are we who have been led to God through this crucified Christ. :- Justin Martyr c100-165
Who else, therefore, are understood but we, who, fully taught by the new law, observe these practices,—the old law being obliterated, the coming of whose abolition the action itself demonstrates. . . . Therefore, as we have shown above that the coming cessation of the old law and of the carnal circumcision was declared, so, too, the observance of the new law and the spiritual circumcision has shone out into the voluntary observances of peace. :- Tertullian (ca.160 – ca.220 AD):
Replacement Theology?
The Church has not replaced Israel. It is Israel. The Church has always existed. We were chosen in him before the beginning of time.
I agree with Jesus.
John 10:16
I have other sheep that are not of this sheep pen. I must bring them also. They too will listen to my voice, and there shall be one flock and one shepherd.
God only has one flock and that flock is The Church.
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trdchubi
Guest
It seems muslims of today are NOT the only religious group hating Israel now. The church still has remnants of those anti-Jewish sentiments that took root as early as third century B.C.
Now that’s a long standing hatred from the Church established by the Lord Jesus Christ. If the Jews knew what they are getting into and what will be their destiny throughout history, they should have not uttered these words:
Now that’s a long standing hatred from the Church established by the Lord Jesus Christ. If the Jews knew what they are getting into and what will be their destiny throughout history, they should have not uttered these words:
Since then, all Good Christian had a “sacred duty” to oppress the Jews. Christians must show hostility toward them. The same hostility displayed toward evil and the devil…and that same idea, sadly, exist in the Church today.
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trdchubi
Guest
I must say I am not proud of this or any statement said on Antisemetism of the Church Fathers — Catholic and Protestant
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trdchubi
Guest
Then let us destroy the Old testament books, the Ten Commandments, the Patriarchs, The True Jewish Prophets, their prophesies, the name Israel or Judah, the historical ancestry of our Lord Jesus Christ, etc. obliterating all evidence that God first and foremost, revealed himself in the Old Scriptures.
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trdchubi
Guest
Don’t you think our Lord just affirmed that the “sheep in the sheep pen” he primarily gathered are the Jews. Jews who believe in the Lord Jesus Christ? Yes they were the Church but they were Israelites as well.
The early church composed of the Jewish believers and later the Gentile converts from paganism.
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trdchubi
Guest
Precisely. Are you not aware of this passage?
St. Paul distinctly pertains to TWO Israel, the Physical Israel (Jews)and Spiritual Israel (Gentiles).
Thanks Lev for the verses.
Let’s think about this: Recalling the Common Heritage of Jews and Christians**http://www.adl.org/Pope/Pope_judaism2.asp
**
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trdchubi
Guest
Hatred of the Jew has been universal, permanent and deep. Death for the Jews has been desired and plotted by the tyrants of every age. Pharaoh, Nebuchadnezzar, Caesar, the turks, the Christians, the muslims, stalin, hitler and almost every great power that ever lived and flourished, defined the Jew as a target for abuse or complete annihilation.
Jews have been expelled from nearly every country in which they resided.
Why such hatred and fear of a people who never constituted more than a small minority?
Why did almost every great culture and civilization see them as their ultimate enemy?
Are they really such an evil people as to threaten the well-being of virtually every civilization for the past 4,000 years?
Jews have been expelled from nearly every country in which they resided.
Why such hatred and fear of a people who never constituted more than a small minority?
Why did almost every great culture and civilization see them as their ultimate enemy?
Are they really such an evil people as to threaten the well-being of virtually every civilization for the past 4,000 years?
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