WHY do Muslims perform such Shames ?

[Rodrigo_Bivar]

If you can put your personal animosity to me aside, pro, perhaps you will see that I do not advocate nor condone nor support the destruction of the black stone.

I actually think it’s a bad idea as i do not wish an all-war between Muslims and the West.

 

[Montalban]

The Koran says that the Jews are like donkeys!

62: 5 The likeness of those who were entrusted with the Taurat (Torah), but who subsequently failed in those (obligations), is as the likeness of a donkey who carries huge burdens of books (but understands nothing from them). How bad is the example (or the likeness) of people who deny the Ayat (proofs, evidences, verses, signs, revelations, etc.) of Allah. And Allah guides not the people who are Zalimun (polytheists, wrong-doers, disbelievers, etc.).

2:96 says that they are the greediest people…
And verily, you will find them (the Jews) the greediest of mankind for life and (even greedier) than those who - ascribe partners to Allah (and do not believe in Resurrection - Magians, pagans, and idolaters, etc.). Everyone of them wishes that he could be given a life of a thousand years. But the grant of such life will not save him even a little from (due) punishment. And Allah is All-Seer of what they do.

2:61 says that al-lah stamped wretchedness upon them.
4:61 Says that they (and Christians) believe in idols
5:52 they are cursed.

Note: animal analogies are used a number of times
Sabbath breakers are said to be like monkeys
2: 65 And indeed you knew those amongst you who transgressed in the matter of the Sabbath (i.e. Saturday). We said to them: “Be you monkeys, despised and rejected.”
2: 66 So We made this punishment an example to their own and to succeeding generations and a lesson to those who are Al-Muttaqun (the pious - see V.2:2).

5:93 the Jews are cursed
5:51 don’t take a Jew as a friend
5:53 Jews (and Christians) are losers
5:57 Don’t choose Jews, (or Christians, or disbelievers) as guardians
5:59 Jews (and Christians) are evil-doers
5:63 Rabbis do evil

etc.

It is embedded in the Koran, this hatred of Jews

You already stated it? Do you mean “Anti-Semitism’s an integral part of Islam” ?
What’s my point? Well, in case the above is your point, I showed you that they weren’t the only ones, hence my question: “what’s your point?”

The point is called ‘causality’. You need to show that there’s a link.

I can show you verses in the Koran that are against the Jews. You’ve done nothing but note that some people, who happen to be Catholics are equally guilty. What about their Catholicity made them do such things? Please provide some kind of argument.

I know of Russians who fought for the Nazis. They didn’t do this because their over-arching ethos is Orthodoxy, but anti-Communism.

I know it’s difficult for some here to draw connections, but please do try.

 

[eleonardo]

The point is called ‘causality’. You need to show that there’s a link.

You’ve done nothing but note that some people, who happen to be Catholics are equally guilty. What about their Catholicity made them do such things? Please provide some kind of argument.

From your previous argument, “Chechens and Bosniak collaborated with the Nazi’s”, I dind’t see your causality. This is why I mentioned other people siding with them too.

It is embedded in the Koran, this hatred of Jews

I can show you verses in the Koran that are against the Jews.

I know it’s difficult for some here to draw connections, but please do try.

See ,now your causality makes more sense, since you presented arguments other than Chechens and Bosniaks. It’s always easier to draw conclusions when they make more sense.

Pax tecum.

 

[pumpqeen]

I said, IF.

Do you understand english?

 

[Valke2]

There are several distinct rituals in the Hajj - such as the counter-clockwise seven times circumambulation around the Ka’ba, the stoning of the devil, and the visit to Muhammad’s mosque.

It would be impossible to complete the Tawaf without touching and kissing the black stone or facing it and pointing to it.

But isn’t it the pilgrimage to Mecca itself that is one of the 5 pillars, not the rituals associated with the Ka’ba?

 

[Rodrigo_Bivar]

The Hajj is one of the pillars. Visiting Mecca is not. The Hajj is defined as the performance of specific rituals at specific times.

hajj.al-islam.com/
Definition of Hajj:
Literally: The word “Hajj” means heading for an honorable person or place.
Legally: Hajj means worshipping Allah by performing the Hajj rituals, which are defined as specific acts performed at a specific time and place in a specific way.

There is agreement among Juristic schools over the Hajj definition.

The Umrah - i.e. circumambulation seven times around the Ka’ba, pointing to or kissing the stone, and the sa’i - seven times walk between Safa and Marwah - is part of the Hajj ritual.

The Hajj itself is a bigger set of rituals and includes the Umrah, but also the stoning of the three pillars of Satan, various sacrifices and prayers at specific times, spending a whole night under the sky, etc.

 

[pro_universal]

The rock is just a rock. It doesn’t need to be there. The point of the ritual is one of religious unity and practice. It has absolutely zero dependence on material things.

This is really a bizarre theory, that Islam can’t be practiced without some material things. The equivalent in Christianity would be something like this…

If a worldwide blight killed every last grain of wheat, do you think the Catholic church would cease to exist, since no one would be able to have the eucharist?

I think it’s frightening that this level of ignorance is combined with an equally high level of hatred. These are dangerous times for humanity, when the simpletons and hate-mongers are being taken seriously by more than a handful of people.

 

[BobCatholic]

What does the world even put up with such a thoroughly evil religion? A religion that has no truth in it and no lack of lies.

Simple.

The rest of the world is infected with relativism.

Then when a relativistic religion like Islam comes into the picture, they don’t know what to do about it.

They can’t judge it as evil, because they’re relativistic. They can’t tolerate it because they’re relativistic.

So they go blah-blah and the blood keeps flowing.

 

[Montalban]

I think it’s frightening that this level of ignorance is combined with an equally high level of hatred

No point complaining about ignorance, you joined Islam

. These are dangerous times for humanity, when the simpletons and hate-mongers are being taken seriously by more than a handful of people.

Indeed, look what Moslems will do…

Beheaded girls were Ramadan ‘trophies’
Stephen Fitzpatrick, Jakarta correspondent
November 09, 2006
THREE Christian high school girls were beheaded as a Ramadan “trophy” by Indonesian militants who conceived the idea after a visit to Philippines jihadists, a court heard yesterday.
The girls’ severed heads were dumped in plastic bags in their village in Indonesia’s strife-torn Central Sulawesi province, along with a handwritten note threatening more such attacks.
The note read: “Wanted: 100 more Christian heads, teenaged or adult, male or female; blood shall be answered with blood, soul with soul, head with head.”
Javanese trader Hasanuddin appeared in Jakarta Central Court yesterday charged with planning and directing the murders in October last year. He faces a death sentence if found guilty under anti-terrorism legislation.
Hasanuddin allegedly returned from a visit to members of Philippines Islamist group the Moro Islamic Liberation Front with tales of how that organisation regularly staged bombings to coincide with Lebaran, the festival that ends the Muslim holy month of Ramadan. He later spoke with a preacher in Poso, Central Sulawesi, about whether such a plan could work in Indonesia, but expressed doubt about whether it was appropriate.
However, after further discussion with friends, he decided that beheading Christians could qualify as an act of Muslim charity.
Conscripting several accomplices at a local pesantren, or Islamic school, he directed one of them, Lilik Purnomo, to seek out “the head of a Christian”, prosecutors alleged.
“It would be a great Lebaran trophy if we got a Christian. Go search for the best place for us to find one,” Hasanuddin allegedly ordered his companion.
Lilik returned to say he had found an “excellent” target - a group of schoolgirls who travelled to and from class by foot in the Central Sulawesi village of Gebong Rejo. The village is in the district of Poso, where hundreds of people have died in sectarian violence in recent years.
Many observers worry that Central Sulawesi has become the latest battleground in a deadly jihad.
Three Christian men were executed there last month for their role in a massacre of Muslims in 2000 and there have been a series of deadly attacks in the province in recent months.
Prosecutors yesterday detailed how Hasanuddin, Lilik and co-accused Irwanto Irano planned the schoolgirl beheadings with six other men. They prepared six machetes and black plastic bags for carrying off the severed heads and spent several days surveying the area where the students regularly passed by.
The operation was called off on one occasion, when a woman spotted the attackers hiding by the roadside, waiting for their victims. On the night before the attack, Lilik told Hasanuddin: “I hope you are ready to receive your Lebaran gift.”
The attack was launched the following morning, but only four of the six targeted girls appeared.
Lilik, directing the attack from a nearby hill, told his accomplices to act quickly so that the remaining two girls could still be killed should they appear behind their friends.
The attackers cleanly beheaded three of the students but a fourth, Noviana Malewa, escaped after a struggle and ran away screaming. Her attackers gave chase but were unable to catch her.
The bodies, dressed in school uniform, were left by the roadside near the execution site, but the heads were carried in a backpack to Hasanuddin.The trial of his two co-accomplices was adjourned until Wednesday, when Hasanuddin will also reappear.

theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,20867,20726085-2703,00.html

 

[Rodrigo_Bivar]

So that’s why Muslims perform the Umrah and Hajj by the millions each year - to point to or preferably the rock that is not so important at all.

I’m sure nobody told those millions of Muslims that what they’re kissing is just a rock and nothing more.

 

[Ella]

I said, IF.

Do you understand english?

Are you talkin’ to me?

Yes I do understand English, even if it’s as poorly constructed as, “WHY do Muslims perform such Shames ?”

And I think what you posted about destroying the Ka’aba is offensive and unChristian. I don’t understand why you have not been banned, honestly. I did report your post to the moderators.

 

[inJESUS]

So that’s why Muslims perform the Umrah and Hajj by the millions each year - to point to or preferably the rock that is not so important at all.

I’m sure nobody told those millions of Muslims that what they’re kissing is just a rock and nothing more.

Ali said that’s a rock but since he saw Muhammad kissing it, then he kissed it

 

[BobCatholic]

How many Muslim women and children would be an acceptable number of dead “in defense of Christianity”?

I don’t know. How many Muslim women and children would be an acceptable number of dead “in defense of Islam”? The biggest killer of Muslims are other Muslims.

Islam is just plain relativism. If an imam goes off the deep end and misinterprets the Koran, who is there to call him Kafir that is authoritative? Nobody. They don’t have the equivalent of the Vatican. So what happens? Each imam can interpret the Koran every which way but loose, and relativism is the result. And blood flows.

 

[inJESUS]

Can someone tell us what would happen IF Mecca was destroyed for any reason?

 

[BobCatholic]

Can someone tell us what would happen IF Mecca was destroyed for any reason?

Depends on who did it.

If Al-Queda did it, you’d have 1 billion muslims ready to kick their keister.

But here’s the thing: Even if Al-Queda did it, you can bet the propaganda machine Al-Hitleera will tell them that it was America who did it. And they’d buy it hook, line and stinker.

So regardless, we’ll have one billion angry muslims who will call for a Holy War against non-Muslims. Throats slit everywhere.

 

[Rodrigo_Bivar]

Ali said that’s a rock but since he saw Muhammad kissing it, then he kissed it

Yes, that is according to a sahih Bukhari hadith.

However, there are at-Tirmidhi hadiths which some Islamic scholars regard as sahih which attribute all sorts of things to the black stone.
islamonline.net/servlet/Satellite?cid=1124781357727&pagename=IslamOnline-English-Hajj_Umra%2FHajjE%2FHajjE

So some Muslims say it’s just a stone but other Muslims say not.

 

[inJESUS]

Yes, that is according to a sahih Bukhari hadith.

However, there are at-Tirmidhi hadiths which some Islamic scholars regard as sahih which attribute all sorts of things to the black stone.
islamonline.net/servlet/Satellite?cid=1124781357727&pagename=IslamOnline-English-Hajj_Umra%2FHajjE%2FHajjE

So some Muslims say it’s just a stone but other Muslims say not.

oh i see the problem. Anyway i don’t think Muslims will stop being Muslims if it were destroyed because of, let’s say, an earthquake.

btw, it was Umar, not Ali, my mistake.

 

[pro_universal]

I don’t know.

Well, that certainly says something about the depth of your moral principles. You’re not sure how many Muslim women and children dead is acceptable?

How many Muslim women and children would be an acceptable number of dead “in defense of Islam”? The biggest killer of Muslims are other Muslims.

Zero is acceptable. And no, the biggest killer of Muslims isn’t other Muslims. Not even close. Russia and Serbia have outdone in a decade the worst of the past 50 years in the Muslim world.

Islam is just plain relativism. If an imam goes off the deep end and misinterprets the Koran, who is there to call him Kafir that is authoritative? Nobody. They don’t have the equivalent of the Vatican. So what happens? Each imam can interpret the Koran every which way but loose, and relativism is the result. And blood flows.

No they can’t. They have traditions, scholars, and arguments that define orthodoxy (just like Jews, really. There’s no Jewish “Pope”, but do you call Jews “plainly relativistic”?).

This assumption that there has to be an authority is groundless. Half the Christians in the world don’t recognize the Vatican as an authority. Does that mean that Christianity is “just plain relativism”?

 

[pro_universal]

Depends on who did it.

If Al-Queda did it, you’d have 1 billion muslims ready to kick their keister.

But here’s the thing: Even if Al-Queda did it, you can bet the propaganda machine Al-Hitleera will tell them that it was America who did it. And they’d buy it hook, line and stinker.

100 percent of the people who bash aljazeera have never followed its reporting. It’s obsessed with balance to the point that it regularly features Israeli intelligence and military officials on its programs and in its columns. Most middle easterners are convinced that Al Jazeera is a front for the Mossad (I’m not making that up.)

So regardless, we’ll have one billion angry muslims who will call for a Holy War against non-Muslims. Throats slit everywhere.

It’s not that different from the calls for “solving the Muslim problem” that you see here, is it?

 

[inJESUS]

100 percent of the people who bash aljazeera have never followed its reporting. It’s obsessed with balance to the point that it regularly features Israeli intelligence and military officials on its programs and in its columns. Most middle easterners are convinced that Al Jazeera is a front for the Mossad (I’m not making that up.)

it’s the contrary…many know Al-Jazaeera is pro-Arab and yes middle eastners.