F
Frost
Guest
Excuse me…?
- Status
R
Roy5
Guest
Sorry that I haven’t read all the postings re Mary, but here are a few thoughts from this Protestant.
Code:
(1) I know of no Protestant who dislikes Mary. She is especially prominent among Protestants at Christmas as they focus on the birth of Jesus, creches and tableaus, etc.
(2) What troubles some Protestants is that there seems to be an undue emphasis upon Mary among some Catholics, as though she is a co-Redeemer. Take the Rosary. When I hear it recited on EWTN and elsewhere, most of the time I hear the recitation of 'Hail Mary'! Now the first part of the Hail Mary is taken from scripture, though not a prayer but a salutation of the angel. The second part is not found in scripture.
(3) Mary appears only twice in scripture between the birth of Jesus and his crucifixion. In both instances Jesus can even seem somewhat dismissive of his mother. Check it out.
(4) St. Paul wrote many letters to the early churches, discussing doctrine and such. He doesn't mention Mary once. It seems that if she were to occupy such a central place in theology and liturgy he would have counseled the churches on that matter.
(5) There is a fear among some Protestants that a cult has grown up around Mary because of the influence of ancient religions, in which virgin goddesses often played a key role. Various legends about Mary are found in books not included in the canon. Even Anna, Mary's mother, is not mentioned in scripture.
(6) It's interesting that when the genealogy of Jesus is provided in Matthew and Luke it is done through Joseph's line, not that of Mary. This seems odd in light of the virgin birth.
(7) It was not until 1854 that Pope Pius IX declared the Immaculate Conception a doctrine - that Mary was the only person born without sin and lived a sinless life. It was not until 1950 that the Pope (Pius XII?) proclaimed the doctrine of the Assumption of Mary. Where in scripture is their backing for these doctrines?.
(8) Many Protestants have no problem with the idea that Mary and Joseph had other children. Scripture said that Jesus was born before 'they came together'. Why is it so offensive to many Catholics to have Mary and Joseph have a normal, loving conjugal relationship? This focus on Mary's perpetual virginity seems to run counter to what the church celebrates as intimate relations and the bearing of children that can result.
But again, I know of no Protestant who ever has disliked Mary. I do know many who have a problem with the enormous emphasis Catholicism places upon her.
God bless Catholics, Protestants and those of every creed, color and country. May religion become a bridge and not a barrier.
S
sckcd
Guest
Regarding Roy’s last point: That is what it is with me. I have great admiration for Mary and she should be honored for serving God the way she did, but it’s the enormous emphasis that Catholics put on her that makes me uncomfortable. I know Catholics say they don’t worship her, but it comes off that way to outsiders. It’s just too much for me. I feel that Jesus should be the only one honored so much.
P
peary1
Guest
Most nonCatholics are indifferent to Mary rather than having a dislike for her. This is because their ecclesial communities rejected the whole notion of Mariology and the role of Mary in salvation history.
Most troubling are those groups that actually do disdain the Mother of God. First, they reject that particular title, and only think of her as an incubator for God. When her mission was completed, she could be disposed of readily. That is so unbilbical that it reeks of total ignorance.
As the concept of the importance of motherhood (and spiritual motherhood) decreased in society, there developed more indifference to Mary. With the introduction of birth control and radical feminism, Mary became a Catholic icon to be attacked and degraded, especially by fundamentalist sects (or even mainline protestant communities) who embraced birth control, abortion, homosexuality, etc.
Reading through the New Testament, though not specified, one can see how Mary became the Mother of the Church, especially since, as Paul says, we are the Body of Christ. In her Magnificat, Mary says that “all generations shall call me blessed.” This has continued in the Catholic and eastern orthodox churches.
Most troubling are those groups that actually do disdain the Mother of God. First, they reject that particular title, and only think of her as an incubator for God. When her mission was completed, she could be disposed of readily. That is so unbilbical that it reeks of total ignorance.
As the concept of the importance of motherhood (and spiritual motherhood) decreased in society, there developed more indifference to Mary. With the introduction of birth control and radical feminism, Mary became a Catholic icon to be attacked and degraded, especially by fundamentalist sects (or even mainline protestant communities) who embraced birth control, abortion, homosexuality, etc.
Reading through the New Testament, though not specified, one can see how Mary became the Mother of the Church, especially since, as Paul says, we are the Body of Christ. In her Magnificat, Mary says that “all generations shall call me blessed.” This has continued in the Catholic and eastern orthodox churches.
B
Bill_Pick
Guest
The Bible tell us Mary is the Mother of God and the reform all like Mary Jon wesley,martin Luther and I can not think of all of them at this time
Thank you, lfl,
You always approach such questions with grace and charity. Something I won’t do is condemn those who do request ntercessory prayer from Mary and the saints, if for no other reason than that it has been practiced in both east and west for many centuries, giving comfort to those who do.
Jon
B
Bill_Pick
Guest
You have to be kidding
I
izoid
Guest
You couldn’t be any more incorrect. You statement is merely your opinion and has no factual basis at all. What about 1 Tim. 3:15? Before you give the canned response of the church is the body of all believers we might want to look into the Greek used in this passage.
Church—Ekklesia, means an assembly, a religious congregation.
Household—A house, dwelling
It is very clear that Paul was speaking of a physical Church that was the pillar and foundation of truth.
I
izoid
Guest
For such a “Biblical” Christian, you sure have forgotten a lot. Have you ever read Revelation? When John saw the Saints in heaven presenting bowls of incense to God, what were they presenting?
J
Jars_of_Clay_1
Guest
Hi Lil_flower_luv (great id by the way) Great comment too. Just a question. You said you struggled with the idea that someone in Heaven besides God could hear your prayers. So, what was it that convenience you that Mary and the saints could hear your prayers? Do you think once they died they became omnipresent? Just curious.
Just and FYI - I love Mary.
W
wwolverine
Guest
Dear Roy,
Thanks for your comments. There is something that amazes me in the entire scriptures and that is , we have almost Four miracelous births.
- Issac to Abraham and Sarah
- Samson to Manoh
- John the Baptist to Zechariah and Elizabeth
4, Mary to Joaquim and Anna, Why could that be? If there is why is it not included in the scriptures? I believe its available in the catholic Bible, which I do not have in my possession, but in the 66 books bible its no where to be found. Is that the reason most non catholics consider Mother Mary as an ordinary person who sinned?
M
Monica4316
Guest
(from True Devotion to Mary, by St Louis de Montfort)
We are given no other name under heaven by which we can be saved. God has laid no other foundation for our salvation, perfection and glory than Jesus. Every edifice which is not built on that firm rock, is founded upon shifting sands and will certainly fall sooner or later. Every one of the faithful who is not united to him is like a branch broken from the stem of the vine. It falls and withers and is fit only to be burnt. If we live in Jesus and Jesus lives in us, we need not fear damnation. Neither angels in heaven nor men on earth, nor devils in hell, no creature whatever can harm us, for no creature can separate us from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus. Through him, with him and in him, we can do all things and render all honour and glory to the Father in the unity of the Holy Spirit; we can make ourselves perfect and be for our neighbour a fragrance of eternal life.
- Jesus, our Saviour, true God and true man must be the ultimate end of all our other devotions; otherwise they would be false and misleading. He is the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and end of everything. “We labour,” says St. Paul, “only to make all men perfect in Jesus Christ.”
We are given no other name under heaven by which we can be saved. God has laid no other foundation for our salvation, perfection and glory than Jesus. Every edifice which is not built on that firm rock, is founded upon shifting sands and will certainly fall sooner or later. Every one of the faithful who is not united to him is like a branch broken from the stem of the vine. It falls and withers and is fit only to be burnt. If we live in Jesus and Jesus lives in us, we need not fear damnation. Neither angels in heaven nor men on earth, nor devils in hell, no creature whatever can harm us, for no creature can separate us from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus. Through him, with him and in him, we can do all things and render all honour and glory to the Father in the unity of the Holy Spirit; we can make ourselves perfect and be for our neighbour a fragrance of eternal life.
- If then we are establishing sound devotion to our Blessed Lady, it is only in order to establish devotion to our Lord more perfectly, by providing a smooth but certain way of reaching Jesus Christ. If devotion to our Lady distracted us from our Lord, we would have to reject it as an illusion of the devil. But this is far from being the case. As I have already shown and will show again later on, this devotion is necessary, simply and solely because it is a way of reaching Jesus perfectly, loving him tenderly, and serving him faithfully.
- Here I turn to you for a moment, dear Jesus, to complain lovingly to your divine Majesty that the majority of Christians, and even some of the most learned among them, do not recognise the necessary bond that unites you and your Blessed Mother. Lord, you are always with Mary and Mary is always with you. She can never be without you because then she would cease to be what she is. She is so completely transformed into you by grace that she no longer lives, she no longer exists, because you alone, dear Jesus, live and reign in her more perfectly than in all the angels and saints. If we only knew the glory and the love given to you by this wonderful creature, our feelings for you and for her would be far different from those we have now. So intimately is she united to you that it would be easier to separate light from the sun, and heat from the fire. I go further, it would even be easier to separate all the angels and saints from you than Mary; for she loves you ardently, and glorifies you more perfectly than all your other creatures put together.
- In view of this, my dear Master, is it not astonishing and pitiful to see the ignorance and short-sightedness of men with regard to your holy Mother? I am not speaking so much of idolaters and pagans who do not know you and consequently have no knowledge of her. I am not even speaking of heretics and schismatics who have left you and your holy Church and therefore are not interested in your holy Mother. I am speaking of Catholics, and even of educated Catholics, who profess to teach the faith to others but do not know you or your Mother except speculatively, in a dry, cold and sterile way.
M
Monica4316
Guest
If they are sometimes heard speaking of devotion to your Mother, it is not for the purpose of promoting it or convincing people of it but only to destroy the abuses made of it. Yet all the while these persons are devoid of piety or genuine devotion to you, for they have no devotion to Mary. They consider the Rosary and the Scapular as devotions suitable only for simple women or ignorant people. After all, they say, we do not need them to be saved. If they come across one who loves our Lady, who says the rosary or shows any devotion towards her, they soon move him to a change of mind and heart. They advise him to say the seven penitential psalms instead of the Rosary, and to show devotion to Jesus instead of to Mary.
Dear Jesus, do these people possess your spirit? Do they please you by acting in this way? Would it please you if we were to make no effort to give pleasure to your Mother because we are afraid of offending you? Does devotion to your holy Mother hinder devotion to you? Does Mary keep for herself any honour we pay her? Is she a rival of yours? Is she a stranger having no kinship with you? Does pleasing her imply displeasing you? Does the gift of oneself to her constitute a deprivation for you? Is love for her a lessening of our love for you?
O Jesus Christ, you are my Father, my merciful God, my great King, my good Shepherd, my only Master, my best helper, my beloved friend of overwhelming beauty, my living Bread, my eternal priest. You are my guide to my heavenly home, my one true light, my holy joy, my true way, my shining wisdom, my unfeigned simplicity, the peace and harmony of my soul, my perfect safeguard, my bounteous inheritance, my everlasting salvation.
My loving Lord, Jesus Christ, why have I ever loved or desired anything else in my life but you, my God? Where was I when I was not in communion with you? From now on, I direct all my desires to be inspired by you and centred on you. I direct them to press forward for they have tarried long enough, to hasten towards their goal, to seek the one they yearn for.
O Jesus, let him who does not love you be accursed, and filled with bitterness. O gentle Jesus, let every worthy feeling of mine show you love, take delight in you and admire you. O God of my heart and my inheritance, Christ Jesus, may my heart mellow before the influence of your spirit and may you live in me. May the flame of your love burn in my soul. May it burn incessantly on the altar of my heart. May it glow in my innermost being. May it spread its heat into the hidden recesses of my soul and on the day of my consummation may I appear before you consumed in your love. Amen.
Dear Jesus, do these people possess your spirit? Do they please you by acting in this way? Would it please you if we were to make no effort to give pleasure to your Mother because we are afraid of offending you? Does devotion to your holy Mother hinder devotion to you? Does Mary keep for herself any honour we pay her? Is she a rival of yours? Is she a stranger having no kinship with you? Does pleasing her imply displeasing you? Does the gift of oneself to her constitute a deprivation for you? Is love for her a lessening of our love for you?
- Nevertheless, my dear Master, the majority of learned scholars could not be further from devotion to your Mother, or show more indifference to it even if all I have just said were true. Keep me from their way of thinking and acting and let me share your feelings of gratitude, esteem, respect and love for your holy Mother. I can then love and glorify you all the more, because I will be imitating and following you more closely.
- As though I had said nothing so far to further her honour, grant me now the grace to praise her more worthily, in spite of all her enemies who are also yours. I can then say to them boldly with the saints, “Let no one presume to expect mercy from God, who offends his holy Mother.”
- So that I may obtain from your mercy a genuine devotion to your blessed Mother and spread it throughout the whole world, help me to love you wholeheartedly, and for this intention accept the earnest prayer I offer with St. Augustine and all who truly love you.
O Jesus Christ, you are my Father, my merciful God, my great King, my good Shepherd, my only Master, my best helper, my beloved friend of overwhelming beauty, my living Bread, my eternal priest. You are my guide to my heavenly home, my one true light, my holy joy, my true way, my shining wisdom, my unfeigned simplicity, the peace and harmony of my soul, my perfect safeguard, my bounteous inheritance, my everlasting salvation.
My loving Lord, Jesus Christ, why have I ever loved or desired anything else in my life but you, my God? Where was I when I was not in communion with you? From now on, I direct all my desires to be inspired by you and centred on you. I direct them to press forward for they have tarried long enough, to hasten towards their goal, to seek the one they yearn for.
O Jesus, let him who does not love you be accursed, and filled with bitterness. O gentle Jesus, let every worthy feeling of mine show you love, take delight in you and admire you. O God of my heart and my inheritance, Christ Jesus, may my heart mellow before the influence of your spirit and may you live in me. May the flame of your love burn in my soul. May it burn incessantly on the altar of my heart. May it glow in my innermost being. May it spread its heat into the hidden recesses of my soul and on the day of my consummation may I appear before you consumed in your love. Amen.
M
Monica4316
Guest
here’s something to think about 
when Mary greeted St Elizabeth, the baby leapt in her womb. This is how John the Baptist was sanctified… and St Elizabeth responded:
just think about this…
and then Mary said, that her soul “magnifies the Lord”… when we come to Mary, she helps us see Jesus clearer, she helps us come closer to Him.
for this reason, there’s nothing wrong with devotion to Mary.
She’s also the Ark of the New Covenant:
19Then God’s temple in heaven was opened, and within his temple was seen the ark of his covenant. And there came flashes of lightning, rumblings, peals of thunder, an earthquake and a great hailstorm.
A great and wondrous sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet and a crown of twelve stars on her head. 2She was pregnant and cried out in pain as she was about to give birth. 3Then another sign appeared in heaven: an enormous red dragon with seven heads and ten horns and seven crowns on his heads. 4His tail swept a third of the stars out of the sky and flung them to the earth. The dragon stood in front of the woman who was about to give birth, so that he might devour her child the moment it was born. 5She gave birth to a son, a male child, who will rule all the nations with an iron scepter. And her child was snatched up to God and to his throne.
when Mary greeted St Elizabeth, the baby leapt in her womb. This is how John the Baptist was sanctified… and St Elizabeth responded:
all this happened because Mary simply greeted Elizabeth
just think about this…and then Mary said, that her soul “magnifies the Lord”… when we come to Mary, she helps us see Jesus clearer, she helps us come closer to Him.
for this reason, there’s nothing wrong with devotion to Mary.
She’s also the Ark of the New Covenant:
19Then God’s temple in heaven was opened, and within his temple was seen the ark of his covenant. And there came flashes of lightning, rumblings, peals of thunder, an earthquake and a great hailstorm.
A great and wondrous sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet and a crown of twelve stars on her head. 2She was pregnant and cried out in pain as she was about to give birth. 3Then another sign appeared in heaven: an enormous red dragon with seven heads and ten horns and seven crowns on his heads. 4His tail swept a third of the stars out of the sky and flung them to the earth. The dragon stood in front of the woman who was about to give birth, so that he might devour her child the moment it was born. 5She gave birth to a son, a male child, who will rule all the nations with an iron scepter. And her child was snatched up to God and to his throne.
J
jerm
Guest
Hi every one I’m new to this and just wanted to say hello and hope to talk to you about our wonderful faith and what God is doing with his people of the true church.
P
PRmerger
Guest
That’s good.
But, I’m confused–aren’t you “NotTooSmart” re-registered?
I seem to remember NTS claiming to be a “hyper-sensitive kind of guy”–which, combined with your provocative screen name, made for a poor combination.
forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=5745771&postcount=703
J
jerm
Guest
I do not think taht they dislike her i think they dont understand that she was the vesil of our Lord. they have been taught the she is only a woman who was the mother of our savior and nothing more. its sad that they believe this.
A
AmateurPianist
Guest
On some things I am very hyper-sensitive. I can get really sensitive if I think I am getting personally attacked.
But I didn’t think anything was personal here.
I guess it is the classical musicians temperament in me.
And maybe I am odd, but religious differences for the most part don’t yank my chain. If you want to pray to Mary and all the saints for me, go ahead and have at it. Just don’t expect me to.
K
KathleenGee
Guest
I am a cradle Catholic but never related to Mary growing up as she was like a plaster Mary…
I worked with European Latins and came to Mary through their witness of every day life…her companionship, her grace to help make our cross lighter, and she taking the edge out of our patriarchal church…Mary makes the church a family, she brings in the feminine side of the church and she is the First Christian.
Mary is grace, beauty, art, morality in action…in countless themes…and we never tire seeing perfection in countless paintings of her…
Mary was the first one who said yes not only through her voice, but through her will, her entire being, her soul.
She is the first one who took the walk to follow Jesus and we follow her.
A good story for non-Catholics is Our Lady of Guadalupe, the times and events surrounding her apparition in Mexico, and now she communicated the truth of Who Jesus is and what He is for the Mexican people through a pictograph on the tilma of St. Juan Diego.
Back home I heard the best talk I consider ever about Mary…It was a true story of an American pilot shot down over Austria during WWII. He knew going down he would be taken by Nazi sympathizing Austrians. They found him. He knew they were Catholic. He made the sign of the cross and they disregarded him.
The pilot then started reciting his old altar boy prayers in Latin and again, they paid no attention. Finally, when he showed him the Miraculous Medal of Mary, Full of Grace, they put down their arms and sheltered him. Mary helped them see him as a brother.
I met a lady dying in hospice who was into the occult. She was having a terrible time thrashing and wanting to run away. She said the devil was putting her in jail and she was so afraid. She had some non Christian shrines around her and one night said Jesus was there and to get Him out. She also had in her room a tiny statue of Our Lady of Guadalupe…I asked her if she ever heard about the roses in December…and who Mary was and what she had done there…
The lady said she lived a bad life…she could not face God as she was. Mary has the great grace of making a person feel presentable and hopeful before God inspite of their past life…a Hail Mary was said…then she was open to hearing the prayer of the Our Father.
I told her if Mary were visible to her then, she would tell her there would be someone special waiting for her in heaven and it would be Jesus…the Chaplet of Divine Mercy was prayed for her, a prayer used for the dying. She was encompassed with much peace. Upon leaving her, she was afraid the evil would come back and wanted to remain as she was and to die.
We were back the next night…but found out that she had died…she asked her Catholic mother in law to give her the little statue of Mary and said…“Mary told me someone special was waiting for me…” Her mother in law asked, “Is it Jesus?”
She replied, “Yes”.
Yes. This story is only one of countless many down through the ages…The mother-child bond is the strongest bond among humankind. At night when one is afraid and all else fails, we call on Mary and she is there to wipe the tears and bring us closer to our Lord, and gives us confidence He will forgive.
I worked with European Latins and came to Mary through their witness of every day life…her companionship, her grace to help make our cross lighter, and she taking the edge out of our patriarchal church…Mary makes the church a family, she brings in the feminine side of the church and she is the First Christian.
Mary is grace, beauty, art, morality in action…in countless themes…and we never tire seeing perfection in countless paintings of her…
Mary was the first one who said yes not only through her voice, but through her will, her entire being, her soul.
She is the first one who took the walk to follow Jesus and we follow her.
A good story for non-Catholics is Our Lady of Guadalupe, the times and events surrounding her apparition in Mexico, and now she communicated the truth of Who Jesus is and what He is for the Mexican people through a pictograph on the tilma of St. Juan Diego.
Back home I heard the best talk I consider ever about Mary…It was a true story of an American pilot shot down over Austria during WWII. He knew going down he would be taken by Nazi sympathizing Austrians. They found him. He knew they were Catholic. He made the sign of the cross and they disregarded him.
The pilot then started reciting his old altar boy prayers in Latin and again, they paid no attention. Finally, when he showed him the Miraculous Medal of Mary, Full of Grace, they put down their arms and sheltered him. Mary helped them see him as a brother.
I met a lady dying in hospice who was into the occult. She was having a terrible time thrashing and wanting to run away. She said the devil was putting her in jail and she was so afraid. She had some non Christian shrines around her and one night said Jesus was there and to get Him out. She also had in her room a tiny statue of Our Lady of Guadalupe…I asked her if she ever heard about the roses in December…and who Mary was and what she had done there…
The lady said she lived a bad life…she could not face God as she was. Mary has the great grace of making a person feel presentable and hopeful before God inspite of their past life…a Hail Mary was said…then she was open to hearing the prayer of the Our Father.
I told her if Mary were visible to her then, she would tell her there would be someone special waiting for her in heaven and it would be Jesus…the Chaplet of Divine Mercy was prayed for her, a prayer used for the dying. She was encompassed with much peace. Upon leaving her, she was afraid the evil would come back and wanted to remain as she was and to die.
We were back the next night…but found out that she had died…she asked her Catholic mother in law to give her the little statue of Mary and said…“Mary told me someone special was waiting for me…” Her mother in law asked, “Is it Jesus?”
She replied, “Yes”.
Yes. This story is only one of countless many down through the ages…The mother-child bond is the strongest bond among humankind. At night when one is afraid and all else fails, we call on Mary and she is there to wipe the tears and bring us closer to our Lord, and gives us confidence He will forgive.
M
Monica4316
Guest
that is so beautiful!!
- Status