Why do non catholics dislike Mother Mary?

[SteveVH]

Just starting reading this thread. I have to agree that most of the controversy surrounding Mary is based upon ignorance of the Catholic position. We regard Mary as our mother because she is Chirst’s mother. If we are the body of Christ, then she is our mother also, the mother of the Church.

We pray to Mary, not in adoration or in worship, but with petition. We ask her to pray for us. She always points us toward her Son. Those who respond that we should just pray directly to God should ask themeselves if they have ever asked anyone to pray for them. If you have, why? Why don’t you just pray direclty to God yourself. Of course, we also pray directly to God but believe that other’s prayers for us are efficatious, especially those of our Lord’s own mother and those who we know to be in heaven, the saints.

Mary is a creature, not divine. But she was chosen from among all women to be the mother of God himself which sets her apart. God has given her a special role, different than any other human being. Her “yes” to God brought us salvation. So we give her special honor. Yes, I have known Catholics who misunderstand her role and place her in a position of near divinity - the other side of the spectrum. But the Church’s official position concerning Mary is a very healthy one and one which will make sense to anyone understanding it properly.

What a great time of year to reflect on Mary, the mother of Jesus, and mother of the Church.

 

[Lutheranteach]

Just starting reading this thread. I have to agree that most of the controversy surrounding Mary is based upon ignorance of the Catholic position. We regard Mary as our mother because she is Chirst’s mother. If we are the body of Christ, then she is our mother also, the mother of the Church.

We pray to Mary, not in adoration or in worship, but with petition. We ask her to pray for us. She always points us toward her Son. Those who respond that we should just pray directly to God should ask themeselves if they have ever asked anyone to pray for them. If you have, why? Why don’t you just pray direclty to God yourself. Of course, we also pray directly to God but believe that other’s prayers for us are efficatious, especially those of our Lord’s own mother and those who we know to be in heaven, the saints.

Mary is a creature, not divine. But she was chosen from among all women to be the mother of God himself which sets her apart. God has given her a special role, different than any other human being. Her “yes” to God brought us salvation. So we give her special honor. Yes, I have known Catholics who misunderstand her role and place her in a position of near divinity - the other side of the spectrum. But the Church’s official position concerning Mary is a very healthy one and one which will make sense to anyone understanding it properly.

What a great time of year to reflect on Mary, the mother of Jesus, and mother of the Church.

I think there are many educated protestants who do understand that. We just are of the opinion that no one who is dead can petition for us and that the belief that anyone other than Jesus/God is omniscient, omnipresent, etc. detracts from Jesus/God

 

[Le_Cracquere]

Just starting reading this thread. I have to agree that most of the controversy surrounding Mary is based upon ignorance of the Catholic position. We regard Mary as our mother because she is Chirst’s mother. If we are the body of Christ, then she is our mother also, the mother of the Church.

We pray to Mary, not in adoration or in worship, but with petition. We ask her to pray for us. She always points us toward her Son. Those who respond that we should just pray directly to God should ask themeselves if they have ever asked anyone to pray for them. If you have, why? Why don’t you just pray direclty to God yourself. Of course, we also pray directly to God but believe that other’s prayers for us are efficatious, especially those of our Lord’s own mother and those who we know to be in heaven, the saints.

Mary is a creature, not divine. But she was chosen from among all women to be the mother of God himself which sets her apart. God has given her a special role, different than any other human being. Her “yes” to God brought us salvation. So we give her special honor. Yes, I have known Catholics who misunderstand her role and place her in a position of near divinity - the other side of the spectrum. But the Church’s official position concerning Mary is a very healthy one and one which will make sense to anyone understanding it properly.

What a great time of year to reflect on Mary, the mother of Jesus, and mother of the Church.

That seems like a reasonable way of describing it to my uneducated ear. And no doubt, there are plenty of Protestants AND Catholics whose respective misunderstandings make a caricature of their side’s positions easier than it ought to be. For my part, this Protestant shall raise a glass tonight to our Lord, and a chaser to His mother & church!

 

[SteveVH]

Well I would have to agree with you if she were indeed dead. Are you familiar with the concept of the Communion of Saints? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living. We believe that those who have died in Christ are with Him now in heaven. He told the “good thief” hanging next to Him on the cross “I tell you, today you shall be with Me in Paradise”. At the Transfiguration both Elijah and Moses appeared and were conversing with Jesus. They cerainly weren’t dead. So there is scriptural proof and the Church has believed this now for over 2000 years.

So, it follows that if Moses and Elijah were in heaven, as well as the good theif, it is not a wild assumption to believe that Mary, the mother of Jesus is also in heaven, as well as all others who have died in Christ. Dying He destroyed our death; Rising He restored our life. We believe that those who now have a glorified state in heaven are not separated from us by death, but hear us and pray for us. This is no way detracts from God, but only indicates that we are in communion by being members of the mystical Body of Christ, the Church, which is present both here and in heaven.

God bless you.

 

[Sword_Brethren]

Hello…

So I swear to tell the truth…so help me God.

• No one who dies receives eternal life and goes to heaven…
• No one who dies goes to a place called purgatory…
• No one who dies goes to hell…

All who die – good or bad – simply “sleep” in death until they are “awaken” upon hearing the voice of the Savior at the end of days. Only then, will some receive eternal life or eternal judgment.

None of us want to imagine not existing – if even for a little while. We fear the darkness so strongly that we accept the Tradition of believing that Mary, saints and our loved ones are still alive in heaven and we pray to them (even though Jesus said that all who are dead are asleep). Unfortunately, many have never read the truth for themselves.

1. There are 3 parts to humans: Body, Spirit & Soul.

*: “And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.”

2. The body is a temple made of dust; the spirit is the “breath of life” (or “power of animation”, given by God); and man IS a soul [being].*

[Gen 2:7]: “And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.”

We are not bodies that possess souls, nor are we spirits “riding” within bodies. We are souls/beings through the combination of spirit & body. This concept is also reflect in our biology; humans aren’t simply sperm that grows inside an egg as if the egg is a Petri dish, but we are sperm and egg combined, married together to form someone new.

3. Many confuse the following verse…but what’s explained is "without both body and spirit, we cease to be, and the power of life returns to God"

[Ecc 12:7] Then shall the dust [body] return to the earth as it was, and the spirit [power of animation] shall return unto God who gave it.

4. Death is sleep. And in sleep we cease to be.

[JOB 7:21] …For now shall I sleep in the dust; and Thou shalt seek me in the morning, but I shall not be.

[JOB 14:12] So man lies down and does not rise. Till the heavens are no more, they will not awake nor be roused from their sleep

[PSALM 115:17] The dead do not praise the LORD, nor do any who go down into silence;

[PSALM 146:3] Do not trust in princes, in mortal man, in whom there is no salvation. 4 His spirit departs, he returns to the earth; in that very day his thoughts [his soul/Id/being] perish.

5. We all will be awakened from sleep when the Savior returns, and not a moment sooner.

[JOHN 5:28] Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming when all who are in the tombs will hear his voice 29 and come forth, those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of judgment.

[DANIEL 12:13] “But you, go your way till the end; for you shall rest [sleep in death], and will arise to your inheritance at the end of the days.”

• Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does corruption inherit incorruption. 51 Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed — 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

[REVELATION 22:12] “And behold, I am coming quickly, and my reward [eternal life] is with me, to give to every one according to his work.”

The Savior told us how we should pray and gave an example:*

[Matthew 6:9-12] “Our Father, which art in Heaven…”

[John 14:12-13 & 16] “…I go unto my Father. And whatsoever ye shall ask me] in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified…and I will then] pray the Father…”

The point of conversation is towards the Father, and then sealed in the name of the Savior.

The Savior is the only interceder. Not the saints…and not his mother. His instructions were clear.

There is only One who demands all prayer and worship; no substitutes; no proxies.

Commandment #2

[Exodus 20:4-5] Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth. 5 and] Thou shalt not bow down thyself for prayer or worship] to them, nor serve them: for the Lord thy God am a Jealous God…

But unfortunately this specific commandment is not taught in the Catholic Tradition (I went to Catholic School all my life).

---

All of your statement is error.

Exodus 25 17-20

Thou shalt make also a propitiatory of the purest gold: the length thereof shall be two cubits and a half, and the breadth a cubit and a half. 18 Thou shalt make also two **cherubims **of beaten gold, on the two sides of the oracle. 19 Let one cherub be on the one side, and the other on the other. 20 Let them cover both sides of the propitiatory, spreading their wings, and covering the oracle, and let them look one towards the other, their faces being turned towards the propitiatory wherewith the ark is to be covered.

 

[Sword_Brethren]

So I swear to tell the truth…so help me God.

• No one who dies receives eternal life and goes to heaven…
• No one who dies goes to a place called purgatory…
• No one who dies goes to hell…

All who die – good or bad – simply “sleep” in death until they are “awaken” upon hearing the voice of the Savior at the end of days. Only then, will some receive eternal life or eternal judgment.

None of us want to imagine not existing – if even for a little while. We fear the darkness so strongly that we accept the Tradition of believing that Mary, saints and our loved ones are still alive in heaven and we pray to them (even though Jesus said that all who are dead are asleep). Unfortunately, many have never read the truth for themselves.

1. There are 3 parts to humans: Body, Spirit & Soul.

We are not bodies that possess souls, nor are we spirits “riding” within bodies. We are souls/beings through the combination of spirit & body. This concept is also reflect in our biology; humans aren’t simply sperm that grows inside an egg as if the egg is a Petri dish, but we are sperm and egg combined, married together to form someone new.

3. Many confuse the following verse…but what’s explained is "without both body and spirit, we cease to be, and the power of life returns to God"

[Ecc 12:7] Then shall the dust [body] return to the earth as it was, and the spirit [power of animation] shall return unto God who gave it.

4. Death is sleep. And in sleep we cease to be.

[JOB 7:21] …For now shall I sleep in the dust; and Thou shalt seek me in the morning, but I shall not be.

[JOB 14:12] So man lies down and does not rise. Till the heavens are no more, they will not awake nor be roused from their sleep

[PSALM 115:17] The dead do not praise the LORD, nor do any who go down into silence;

[PSALM 146:3] Do not trust in princes, in mortal man, in whom there is no salvation. 4 His spirit departs, he returns to the earth; in that very day his thoughts [his soul/Id/being] perish.

5. We all will be awakened from sleep when the Savior returns, and not a moment sooner.

[JOHN 5:28] Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming when all who are in the tombs will hear his voice 29 and come forth, those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of judgment.

[DANIEL 12:13] “But you, go your way till the end; for you shall rest [sleep in death], and will arise to your inheritance at the end of the days.”

The Savior told us how we should pray and gave an example:

[Matthew 6:9-12] “Our Father, which art in Heaven…”

[John 14:12-13 & 16] “…I go unto my Father. And whatsoever ye shall ask me] in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified…and I will then] pray the Father…”

The point of conversation is towards the Father, and then sealed in the name of the Savior.

The Savior is the only interceder. Not the saints…and not his mother. His instructions were clear.

There is only One who demands all prayer and worship; no substitutes; no proxies.

Commandment #2

[Exodus 20:4-5] Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth. 5 and] Thou shalt not bow down thyself for prayer or worship] to them, nor serve them: for the Lord thy God am a Jealous God…

But unfortunately this specific commandment is not taught in the Catholic Tradition (I went to Catholic School all my life).

---

Many are angry at those who’d forsake the Son’s instructions about prayer, for Tradition, and “thus have ye made the commandment of God of none effect by your tradition [Jesus says to the religious leaders of his day - Matthew 15:6]”.

Your statement is full of error.

Commandment #2
Exodus 25 17-20

“Thou shalt make also a propitiatory of the purest gold: the length thereof shall be two cubits and a half, and the breadth a cubit and a half. Thou shalt make also two **cherubims **of beaten gold, on the two sides of the oracle. Let one cherub be on the one side, and the other on the other. Let them cover both sides of the propitiatory, spreading their wings, and covering the oracle, and let them look one towards the other, their faces being turned towards the propitiatory wherewith the ark is to be covered.”

2 Thessalonians 3:6

“And we charge you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you withdraw yourselves from every brother walking disorderly, and not according to the tradition which they have received of us.”

The dead go to Hell or Heaven

Luke 16:19-25 "There was a certain rich man, who was clothed in purple and fine linen; and feasted sumptuously every day. And there was a certain beggar, named Lazarus, who lay at his gate, full of sores,

Desiring to be filled with the crumbs that fell from the rich man’s table, and no one did give him; moreover the dogs came, and licked his sores. And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham’s bosom. And the rich man also died: and he was buried in hell. And lifting up his eyes when he was in torments, he saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom: And he cried, and said: Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, to cool my tongue: for I am tormented in this flame. And Abraham said to him: Son, remember that thou didst receive good things in thy lifetime, and likewise Lazareth evil things, but now he is comforted; and thou art tormented."

“Abraham’s bosom”… The place of rest, where the souls of the saints resided, till Christ had opened heaven by his death.

 

[Sword_Brethren]

Luke 1:46-48 “And Mary said: My soul doth magnify the Lord. And my spirit hath rejoiced in God my Saviour. Because he hath regarded the humility of his handmaid; for behold from henceforth all generations shall call me blessed.”

 

[peary1]

Please let’s be charitable. I’m sure you can have a conversation without the rude, condescending statements. Thanks!

The question was absolutely valid. There is a definite correlation between those who practice artificial birth control, use condeoms, tolerate abortion, etc. with those who have a very great dislike for the Mother of God. You can figure it out then.

 

[peary1]

I think there are many educated protestants who do understand that. We just are of the opinion that no one who is dead can petition for us and that the belief that anyone other than Jesus/God is omniscient, omnipresent, etc. detracts from Jesus/God

Then your God is a god of the dead, not of the living. You do not take Christ at His word. That is very sad.

 

[lil_flower_luv]

The question was absolutely valid. There is a definite correlation between those who practice artificial birth control, use condeoms, tolerate abortion, etc. with those who have a very great dislike for the Mother of God. You can figure it out then.

Forget all that. Christian people can use Christian charity every once and a while. Keep on tearing down, and you are reflecting the world we are living in. “We who work for Christ should be lighthearted” ~St Leonard

God’s peace and blessings to you.

 

[peary1]

Forget all that. Christian people can use Christian charity every once and a while. Keep on tearing down, and you are reflecting the world we are living in. “We who work for Christ should be lighthearted” ~St Leonard

God’s peace and blessings to you.

FORGET all of that??? My dear little sweet innocent flower luv — sometimes values need to be torn down so that the Truth can get inside the empty box.

 

[AmericanJosiah]

.

I don’t follow the Catholic “logic” here. How is using a condom an indication that there is a personal dislike for Mary? How is not praying to Mary an indication that Mary is disliked, personally? Do Catholics pray to President Obama? IF not, does that mean they have a great dislike for him, personally?

The issue here is the 5.5 billion people (non-Catholics) and why they “dislike” Mary personally. I don’t see the connection to condoms and praying to people. Please explain.

And again, where are these 5.5 billion people with this great personal dislike for Mary? I suppose if we could identify them all, it wouldn’t be too hard to find out why they dislike her so very much, it’s just that I don’t know even one of them.



.

 

[peary1]

.

I don’t follow the Catholic “logic” here. How is using a condom an indication that there is a personal dislike for Mary? How is not praying to Mary an indication that Mary is disliked, personally? Do Catholics pray to President Obama? IF not, does that mean they have a great dislike for him, personally?

The issue here is the 5.5 billion people (non-Catholics) and why they “dislike” Mary personally. I don’t see the connection to condoms and praying to people. Please explain.

And again, where are these 5.5 billion people with this great personal dislike for Mary? I suppose if we could identify them all, it wouldn’t be too hard to find out why they dislike her so very much, it’s just that I don’t know even one of them.

**It affects the whole sanctity of both motherhood and marriage. Once the procreative act is divorced from its pleasure, it cheapens respect for motherhood and for the two in marriage. Basically, by not remaining open to conception, you are saying ‘no’ to God and also saying that you will bring children into the world on your terms rather than His. The use of artificial birth control has made the child the enemy of society. If you refuse to believe that, then you need to explain the overwhelming numbers of child abuse cases that exist. When birth control does not work, then you have the backup plan for abortion - the technological murder of the child in the womb of his or her mother. When motherhood is depreciated, the Catholic devotion to Mary disappears, and great hatred, dislike and indifference replaces it.

The poster to which this was in reference to cannot fathom the connection because he or she is saturated in the moral relativism of society.

That Mary or the saints cannot pray for us is another matter, but connected just the same. Most protestants believe that once a person dies, that person can neither pray for them nor intercede on their behalf. But this is so contrary to biblical teaching and to the teachings of Christ as to be beyond comprehension, because at the core of their false belief is that it is based on a concept of a god of the dead, rather than the living. Catholics acknowledge that our God is the God of the living and NOT of the dead. People do not die. The body does in the sense that it reverts back to the natural world, but the person lives on in Christ and shares in the virtue and works of the whole Body of Christ. In some ways, the protestant belief is similar to that of Buddhists and Brahmanism in that it is a morbid view of life where there is a disconnect in understanding the Communion of Saints in the life of the Church. If you don’t believe that, then you haven’t an accurate understanding of how Puritanism influenced protestant thought in this country for more than a hundred years.**
.

 

[Monica4316]

I know of no one who “dislikes” Mary the mother of Jesus…I think it’s the Catholic understanding of Mary and their at times over zealous devotion to her that most non-Catholics have issue with.

Just becasue non-Catholics do not show 'Catholic devotion" to Mary doesn’t mean she is disliked…nor does it mean they are disrespectful toward her memory or being.

For most Protestants, Jesus is the focus of devotion…He is all and in all…most Protestants don’t contemplate Mary too much…she is not “ignored”…she is “creature” and Protestant focus is on Creator God revealed in Jesus of Nazareth…for many Protestants there is no need for devotion to Mary…since Mary would point us to her Son as the object of our devotion anyways…we honor her by focusing upon her Son…when most Protestants think of Mary…they remember her and honor her BY focusing on her Son.

Catholic “characterization” of Protestants not honoring Mary and disrepecting her is a dishonor to her in and of itself…IMO…I can’t conceive of her accusing anyone of not honoring her IF their devotion is toward her Son to the exclusion of all other “creatures”.

I think you have some misconceptions of Catholic devotion to Mary.

Our devotion to Mary IS centered on Christ, because we believe she leads us CLOSER to God, than we can come with our efforts. She helps us love Him better.

We don’t take an “either/or” approach… we believe God is glorified in His Saints. The Church is a family and we need to recognize that we have a Mother, brothers and sisters, as well, because this is God’s will. He wants us all to be one, and the Saints express their love for us by praying for us in Heaven.

 

[AmericanJosiah]

.

Okay, let me see if I follow the Catholic point of view here:

How is using a condom an indication that there is a personal dislike for Mary?

.

It affects the whole sanctity of both motherhood and marriage. Once the procreative act is divorced from its pleasure, it cheapens respect for motherhood and for the two in marriage. Basically, by not remaining open to conception, you are saying ‘no’ to God and also saying that you will bring children into the world on your terms rather than His. The use of artificial birth control has made the child the enemy of society. If you refuse to believe that, then you need to explain the overwhelming numbers of child abuse cases that exist. When birth control does not work, then you have the backup plan for abortion - the technological murder of the child in the womb of his or her mother. When motherhood is depreciated, the Catholic devotion to Mary disappears, and great hatred, dislike and indifference replaces it.

Okay…

So all who use a condom ERGO have a dislike specifically for MARY - personally. I assume that includes all Catholics that use a condom. What about non-Catholics that don’t (like me - I’ve never used one; I’m a virgin)? So, how does that affirm that non-Catholics (about 5.5 billion persons) personally dislike Mary?

.

 

[izoid]

.

Okay, let me see if I follow the Catholic point of view here:

Okay…

So all who use a condom ERGO have a dislike specifically for MARY - personally. I assume that includes all Catholics that use a condom. What about non-Catholics that don’t (like me - I’ve never used one; I’m a virgin)? So, how does that affirm that non-Catholics (about 5.5 billion persons) personally dislike Mary?

.

I don’t recall anyone saying that everyone who uses a condom dislikes Mary. That statement i a product of your creative attempts to philosophize the argument.

The use of a condom does diminish the role of motherhood. It in fact attempts to eliminate it. In order to fully love Mary one must have a right view of motherhood.

You see, you appear as a philosopher in training as you are consistently attempting to create arguments that do not really exist. Something like this: You are a virgin and you have stated that you do not dislike Mary. Therefore, all virgins must not dislike Mary. See, this is a silly argument, based on my on made up agenda. It is very similar to what you are doing when you make these silly statements.

 

[SteveVH]

Josiah:

I don’t blame you for being confused. As a Catholic, I too follow the Church’s teaching on contraception and abortion, however, I’m not sure that those who practice contraception have some inherent hatred for Mary. I think they have been mislead as to God’s plan concerning human sexuality. When procreation is removed from the equation, sex becomes a vehicle for pleasure only and reduces the participants to objects, rather than subjects. I seriously doubt, however, that all who practice contraception intellectually translate that into some hatred of Mary. Contraception is, by its very definition, a contradiction of motherhood since it prevents it. Since we Catholics consider Mary our Mother, it follows that it would dishonor her, as well as motherhood in general. While I don’t believe that those who practice contraception intellectually hate Mary, I do believe that they have no idea of the gravity of their actions in God’s eyes, and in Mary’s. If Mary was not a Mother, we would not have a Savior. Her “motherhood” defines who she is and her reason for being. So I would agree that the practice of contraception results in dishonoring her, to say the least, I just doubt that the majority of those practicing it are even aware of that fact. Certainly they do not have a “great hatred” of her on a personal basis.
That’s taking it a bit far.

 

[Joshua27]

Your statement is full of error.

Commandment #2
Exodus 25 17-20

"Thou shalt make also a propitiatory of the purest gold: the length thereof shall be two cubits and a half, and the breadth a cubit and a half. Thou shalt make also two **cherubims **of beaten gold…

Hi…No, sir. Exodus 25: 17-20 reads about the Lord commanding the people to make a mercy seat (from the word “propitiatory”); a throne seat for God Himself to sit. and they were to fashion the seat exactly as God described in your passage. But you must finish the passage to fully understand God’s reason for this thing.

Exodus 25: 21-22] And thou shalt put the “mercy seat” above the ark; and in the ark thou shalt put the testimony that I shall give thee. And there [at the throne] I will meet with thee, and I will commune with thee from above the mercy seat [throne], from between the two cherubims which are upon the ark of the testimony, of all things which I will give thee in commandment unto the children of Israel.

This isn’t an idol or statue of a “being”, to kiss or bow down to or worship. This was the throne seat for the King to sit and commune [break bread & fellowship] with His children. No one has ever worshipped a seat.

2 Thessalonians 3:6

“And we charge you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you withdraw yourselves from every brother walking disorderly, and not according to the tradition which they have received of us.”

I’m sorry, but Paul’s letter to the Thessalonians is not the Savior’s words. Anyone can claim the name of the Lord…but it doesn’t mean they’re from the Lord.

[Matthew 7:21-23] Not everyone that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdon of heaven; but [only] he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day [at the end] “Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?” And then I will profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

I’m not saying anything for or against Paul…but (referenced in my last post) Jesus spoke against tradition IFF any tradition gets in the way of the commandments of God. And if you ask me whose words I follow more closely, I’d tell you “the Savior’s words”.

The dead go to Hell or Heaven

Luke 16:19-25 "There was a certain rich man, who was clothed in purple and fine linen; and feasted sumptuously every day. And there was a certain beggar, named Lazarus, who lay at his gate, full of sores,

Desiring to be filled with the crumbs that fell from the rich man’s table, and no one did give him; moreover the dogs came, and licked his sores. And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham’s bosom. And the rich man also died: and he was buried in hell…

“Abraham’s bosom”… The place of rest, where the souls of the saints resided, till Christ had opened heaven by his death.

Jesus spoke in parable about “a Rich man and a Beggar” after being challenged by the Pharases (the religious scolars of the time)…Prior to this, Jesus said ‘you cannot have two masters’ and the Pharases mocked and laughed at him (derided him).

Luke 16:15-18 begins his rebuttal of their mocking laughter:

Ye [you] are they which justify yourselves before men; but God knoweth your hearts: for that which is highly esteemed among men is abomination in the sight of God. The Law of the prophets were [true] until John (the baptist): since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man pressed into it . And it is easier for heaven and earth to pass than for one tittle of the law to fail. Whosoever putteth away his wife, and marrieth another, committeth adultery; and whosoever marrieth her that put away from her husband committeth adultery [Jesus uses Adultery as an example to explain the relationship of the Pharases to the Law and to God].

And then notice how Jesus continues:

[Luke16:19] And there was a certain rich man…

Important Point:

Jesus is speaking in parable, he has creative license to speak in past tense to create a scenario to illustrate his point to all within earshot [disciples, Pharases & sinners in attendance] that (according to Luke 17:1) “You can’t stop temptations of sin…but woe to the one who initiates temptations to sin.”

In the story, notice that the rich man in hell is actually talking to Abraham, not God, even though - as you allude to - Abraham is in Heaven (your title “The dead go to heaven or hell”). Why isn’t he talking to God if in heaven? How does Abraham have authority to dispense mercy from heaven?

Also, make note of the literary tool “and it came to pass”, this is a story being told by Jesus, as He has told many stories to help a less knowledgeable people learn a lesson. In fact, Luke 15 starts by descibing growing group of sinners who came to hear him and sit for lessons and stories…

There will be a “place of salvation” and there **will be **a “place of torment”. But it’s important to read in context.

I mean no disrespect to you, sir. But I have given multiple passages spoken by Jesus that say we will sleep in death until the end, and you give me one passage where at the beginning of the full text of passages starts, [Luke 15:3] “and he spake this parable [story] unto them saying…”

 

[charsan2]

First I must apologize to peary1 and others here for my actions, they were boorish and unnecessary and I am heartily sorry this holiday season is getting to me, we have scant money and I can’t work so I been feeling depressed a lot.

Second me and my wife do not use contraception at all. I can’t have children because of my disability and it tears me up that people would abort a little one just to have fun or because they don’t care.

Third I have never hated Mary, so if you think I do stop thinking it.

Fourth I was a Catholic once and do know what they do, I take what I say from my knowledge.

 

[peary1]

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Okay, let me see if I follow the Catholic point of view here:
Okay…

So all who use a condom ERGO have a dislike specifically for MARY - personally. I assume that includes all Catholics that use a condom. What about non-Catholics that don’t (like me - I’ve never used one; I’m a virgin)? So, how does that affirm that non-Catholics (about 5.5 billion persons) personally dislike Mary?

**Did I say that? Of course not, so stop putting intentions into my posts that aren’t there. I SAID that the whole sanctitty of motherhood and even marriage is cheapened and even disgraced by those who have based their intentions on the use of artificial birth control and somehow think that their understanding of motherhood and marriage aren’t affected by it. There is a definite correlation in the Catholic Church among those Catholics who follow the teachings of the Church and those who do not regarding devotion to Mary. NonCatholics have, for centuries, rejected any premise that Mary as a human being or her spiritual motherhood within the Church is at the very center of salvation history which began in Genesis and runs right through into Revelation. And, again, through the centuries, as the spiritual concept of motherhood and marriage has been cheapened, any type of devotion to Her as our spiritual mother has benn nill.

As far as the statement regarding 5.5 billion perople who dislike Mary, I never wrote that and it was never part of any of my posts. Since the population of the world is something in the vicinity of 6 billion people, I haven’t a clue as to how another poster arrived at the number he did.**

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