Why do non catholics dislike Mother Mary?

[peary1]

I do however, understand the point that was being made and it is legitimate. In order to love Mary, a clear understanding and respect for motherhood is needed. It can be argued that individuals that use birth control do not have a full appreciation for motherhood. Since their appreciation for and understanding of motherhood is compromised, they can not have a complete appreciation for Mary. This does not, however, equate to a dislike for her.

You said it better than I did, and I’m the one who dragged artificial contraception into the mix!

 

[AmericanJosiah]

It has been pointed out to you over and over yet you are still hung up on the title of this thread. READ the first sentance of the post, “There are some Non Catholics who have a great dislike for Mother mary”. Can we now get past this 5.5 billion people smokescreen? It is a moot point and you need to stop attempting to make a point that does not exist.

1. If you want to change the title of the thread and thus what we are permitted to discuss, perhaps you can request Staff to do that?
2. Let’s say this thread is closed and a new one begun to discuss why SOME Protestants hate Mary. First of all, you’d need to document those. Who EXACTLY are they? And what significance would such have? Among the 300,000,000 Protestants around the world, you MIGHT be able to list the names of some that believe in alien abductions (BTW, I suspect you could of some formally registered in congregations legally affiliated with The Catholic Church, too). What does THAT signify? I suspect you could list SOME (2 or more) Protestants who think bratwurst is the best food on Earth and some who hate it. So what? Come to think of it, I suspect that among the 1.1 billion Catholics in the world, you could probably find SOME that believe anything and everything. So what?

Look, we all know - this is one of MANY things Catholics state or claim or post. Over and over and over. I’ve been reading or hearing this claim since I was 10 years old. And while a couple of Catholics here have rejected the claims and repudiated yet another post to charge this, MOST have gone to great lengths to somehow try to defend it. Perpetuating what is false witnessing just isn’t helpful. Even when the absurdity of the charge is pointed out - most here have tried to defend it. Even jump on the wagon. Is this helpful?

I agree that SOME Protestants have a different relationship to/with Mary, a different Marian spirituality than SOME Catholics. But that’s a far, far, far cry from the common charge that Protestants hate or dislike Our Lady. A little Christian honesty and a bit of accuracy go a long way (if not charity). IMHO, this charge (and several like it, sadly found here) are not just strawmen - they are a violation of the 6th Commandment and serve only to separate us. Look, when I’m at a Lutheran site and someone posts about “ALL Catholics WORSHIP Mary” - I immediately repudiate that (and so do all others) and insist we STOP such perpetuations. I realize this is a CATHOLIC site and I’m but a guest here - but a bit of honesty is still good?

I’m Protestant. I regard Mary as my Mother. I regard Her as the Mother of God (doctrine in Lutheranism). I revere, adore, and esteem Her. And yes, I call Her (and regard Her) as blessed. She is chief among the saints and Queen of Heaven. Now, I don’t pray TO Her, although I sometimes pray THROUGH Her. To accuse me of hating Her is not only a lie but far from helpful in our interpersonal, interdenominational relationships. We can (and will) hold to a few different opinions. Maybe we can RESPECTFULLY discuss those, rather than accusing each other of hatred to Our Lady and knowingly perpetuating what we KNOW is false? We have enough problems without this stuff - on and on and on and on and on and on, defended and supported.

And for the record: I’m NEVER met ANYONE who hates Mary. Protestant, Jewish, Hindu, Buddhist, Muslim, Toaist, atheist, agnostic. Or Catholic. That’s the REALITY from my experience.

That’s MY opinion, anyway.

Pax

• Josiah

.

 

[Usbek_de_Perse]

This argument of yours is getting VERY frustrating. It has been pointed out to you over and over yet you are still hung up on the title of this thread. READ the first sentance of the post, “There are some Non Catholics who have a great dislike for Mother mary”. Can we now get past this 5.5 billion people smokescreen? It is a moot point and you need to stop attempting to make a point that does not exist.

Two points: First, agreed, the original post referred to “some” non-Catholics. I am sure that with a billion Catholics, there are even a few Catholics that do not especially like Mary. I mean really, anything is possible. Unfortunately the title line is “why do non catholics dislike Mother Mary?” People read the title line and start posting, I fear. I certainly did.

Second, I heard it observed by a wise Protestant minister that while perhaps the Catholics have too much devotion to Mary, Protestants have too little. And whether or not Catholics have too much, not enough or just right, it can safely be argued that their devotion to Mary is greater than that of most Protestants. Some of this reflects the general Protestant aversion to devotion to saints, and since Marian devotion is the most intense, Protestant aversion to it is probably more forthrightly stated.

The most important thing to remember that, with the exception of a few liberals, no Protestants deny the virgin birth of Jesus. The fact that some Marian doctrines are incomprehensible to them does not suggest a dislike of the Blessed Virgin.

 

[Sword_Brethren]

Hi…No, sir. Exodus 25: 17-20 reads about the Lord commanding the people to make a mercy seat (from the word “propitiatory”); a throne seat for God Himself to sit. and they were to fashion the seat exactly as God described in your passage. But you must finish the passage to fully understand God’s reason for this thing.

Exodus 25: 21-22] And thou shalt put the “mercy seat” above the ark; and in the ark thou shalt put the testimony that I shall give thee. And there [at the throne] I will meet with thee, and I will commune with thee from above the mercy seat [throne], from between the two cherubims which are upon the ark of the testimony, of all things which I will give thee in commandment unto the children of Israel.

This isn’t an idol or statue of a “being”, to kiss or bow down to or worship. This was the throne seat for the King to sit and commune [break bread & fellowship] with His children. No one has ever worshipped a seat.

No you are still incorrect.
Numbers 21:8-9

“And the Lord said to him: Make brazen serpent, and set it up for a sign: whosoever being struck shall look on it, shall live. 9 Moses therefore made a brazen serpent, and set it up for a sign: which when they that were bitten looked upon, they were healed”

 

[Sword_Brethren]

Hi…No, sir. Exodus 25: 17-20 reads about the Lord commanding the people to make a mercy seat (from the word “propitiatory”); a throne seat for God Himself to sit. and they were to fashion the seat exactly as God described in your passage. But you must finish the passage to fully understand God’s reason for this thing.

Exodus 25: 21-22] And thou shalt put the “mercy seat” above the ark; and in the ark thou shalt put the testimony that I shall give thee. And there [at the throne] I will meet with thee, and I will commune with thee from above the mercy seat [throne], from between the two cherubims which are upon the ark of the testimony, of all things which I will give thee in commandment unto the children of Israel.

This isn’t an idol or statue of a “being”, to kiss or bow down to or worship. This was the throne seat for the King to sit and commune [break bread & fellowship] with His children. No one has ever worshipped a seat.

…"

No you are still incorrect. Your understanding of the Second Commandment is wrong. Here are some more images approved by God.
Numbers 21:8-9

“And the Lord said to him: Make brazen serpent, and set it up for a sign: whosoever being struck shall look on it, shall live. 9 Moses therefore made a brazen serpent, and set it up for a sign: which when they that were bitten looked upon, they were healed”

Third Book of Kings 6:35

“And he carved cherubims, and palm trees, and carved work standing very much out: and he overlaid all with golden plates in square work by rule.” This was in the Second Temple.

 

[Sword_Brethren]

And then notice how Jesus continues:

[Luke16:19] And there was a certain rich man…

Important Point:

Jesus is speaking in parable, he has creative license to speak in past tense to create a scenario to illustrate his point to all within earshot [disciples, Pharases & sinners in attendance] that (according to Luke 17:1) “You can’t stop temptations of sin…but woe to the one who initiates temptations to sin.”

In the story, notice that the rich man in hell is actually talking to Abraham, not God, even though - as you allude to - Abraham is in Heaven (your title “The dead go to heaven or hell”). Why isn’t he talking to God if in heaven? How does Abraham have authority to dispense mercy from heaven?

Also, make note of the literary tool “and it came to pass”, this is a story being told by Jesus, as He has told many stories to help a less knowledgeable people learn a lesson. In fact, Luke 15 starts by descibing growing group of sinners who came to hear him and sit for lessons and stories…

There will be a “place of salvation” and there **will be **a “place of torment”. But it’s important to read in context.

I mean no disrespect to you, sir. But I have given multiple passages spoken by Jesus that say we will sleep in death until the end, and you give me one passage where at the beginning of the full text of passages starts, [Luke 15:3] “and he spake this parable [story] unto them saying…”

Wrong again,
Luke 23:39-43 "And one of those robbers who were hanged, blasphemed him, saying: If thou be Christ, save thyself and us. But the other answering, rebuked him, saying: Neither dost thou fear God, seeing thou art condemned under the same condemnation?

And we indeed justly, for we receive the due reward of our deeds; but this man hath done no evil. And he said to Jesus: Lord, remember me when thou shalt come into thy kingdom. And Jesus said to him: Amen I say to thee, **this day **thou shalt be with me in paradise."

 

[Sword_Brethren]

All who die – good or bad – simply “sleep” in death until they are “awaken” upon hearing the voice of the Savior at the end of days. Only then, will some receive eternal life or eternal judgment.

None of us want to imagine not existing – if even for a little while. We fear the darkness so strongly that we accept the Tradition of believing that Mary, saints and our loved ones are still alive in heaven and we pray to them (even though Jesus said that all who are dead are asleep). Unfortunately, many have never read the truth for themselves.

1. There are 3 parts to humans: Body, Spirit & Soul.

*: “And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.”

2. The body is a temple made of dust; the spirit is the “breath of life” (or “power of animation”, given by God); and man IS a soul [being].*

[Gen 2:7]: “And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.”

We are not bodies that possess souls, nor are we spirits “riding” within bodies. We are souls/beings through the combination of spirit & body. This concept is also reflect in our biology; humans aren’t simply sperm that grows inside an egg as if the egg is a Petri dish, but we are sperm and egg combined, married together to form someone new.

3. Many confuse the following verse…but what’s explained is "without both body and spirit, we cease to be, and the power of life returns to God"

[Ecc 12:7] Then shall the dust [body] return to the earth as it was, and the spirit [power of animation] shall return unto God who gave it.

4. Death is sleep. And in sleep we cease to be.

[JOB 7:21] …For now shall I sleep in the dust; and Thou shalt seek me in the morning, but I shall not be.

[JOB 14:12] So man lies down and does not rise. Till the heavens are no more, they will not awake nor be roused from their sleep

[PSALM 115:17] The dead do not praise the LORD, nor do any who go down into silence;

[PSALM 146:3] Do not trust in princes, in mortal man, in whom there is no salvation. 4 His spirit departs, he returns to the earth; in that very day his thoughts [his soul/Id/being] perish.

5. We all will be awakened from sleep when the Savior returns, and not a moment sooner.

[JOHN 5:28] Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming when all who are in the tombs will hear his voice 29 and come forth, those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of judgment.

[DANIEL 12:13] “But you, go your way till the end; for you shall rest [sleep in death], and will arise to your inheritance at the end of the days.”

• Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does corruption inherit incorruption. 51 Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed — 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

[REVELATION 22:12] “And behold, I am coming quickly, and my reward [eternal life] is with me, to give to every one according to his work.”

The Savior told us how we should pray and gave an example:*

[Matthew 6:9-12] “Our Father, which art in Heaven…”

[John 14:12-13 & 16] “…I go unto my Father. And whatsoever ye shall ask me] in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified…and I will then] pray the Father…”

The point of conversation is towards the Father, and then sealed in the name of the Savior.

The Savior is the only interceder. Not the saints…and not his mother. His instructions were clear.

There is only One who demands all prayer and worship; no substitutes; no proxies.

Commandment #2

[Exodus 20:4-5] Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth. 5 and] Thou shalt not bow down thyself for prayer or worship] to them, nor serve them: for the Lord thy God am a Jealous God…

But unfortunately this specific commandment is not taught in the Catholic Tradition (I went to Catholic School all my life).

---

Many are angry at those who’d forsake the Son’s instructions about prayer, for Tradition, and “thus have ye made the commandment of God of none effect by your tradition [Jesus says to the religious leaders of his day - Matthew 15:6]”.

Your interpretation of Holy Scripture is wrong. You have no authority to interprete Holy Scripture. Only the church founded by Jesus Christ, the Holy Catholic Church can interprete Scripture and the interpratations I have given you are of the Church. The Holy Ghost does not guide individuals in interpreting the Holy Bible. Arius, Hus, Luther, Calvin, Thomas Munzter, Jim Baker, A. White and David Koresh all thought they could interprete Holy Scripture.

2 Peter 1:28

“Understanding this first, that no prophecy of scripture is made by private interpretation.”

2 Peter 3:16

“As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are certain things hard to be understood, which the unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, to their own destruction.”

 

[peary1]

And for the record: I’m NEVER met ANYONE who hates Mary. Protestant, Jewish, Hindu, Buddhist, Muslim, Toaist, atheist, agnostic. Or Catholic. That’s the REALITY from my experience.

.

You really live a sheltered life, don’t you?

 

[Sword_Brethren]

I’m sorry, but Paul’s letter to the Thessalonians is not the Savior’s words. Anyone can claim the name of the Lord…but it doesn’t mean they’re from the Lord.

[Matthew 7:21-23] Not everyone that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdon of heaven; but [only] he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day [at the end] “Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?” And then I will profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

I’m not saying anything for or against Paul…but (referenced in my last post) Jesus spoke against tradition IFF any tradition gets in the way of the commandments of God. And if you ask me whose words I follow more closely, I’d tell you “the Savior’s words”.

"

What are you saying? Your statement shows your misunderstanding of Holy Scripture. I will follow St. Paul before I follow you.

 

[lil_flower_luv]

FORGET all of that??? My dear little sweet innocent flower luv — sometimes values need to be torn down so that the Truth can get inside the empty box.

We are called to instruct the ignorant, yes. But how can we get our point across, when along the way we tear down instead of build up? We are a people of peace .

Souls in heaven, the Saints, no longer need to pray for themselves, but they can intercede for others – the ones still on earth. By sharing Christ’s life they can hear and know where those prayers come from. They respond by presenting these to God.

My other thoughts are: we die only once (Heb 9,27), followed by the Judgment. When entering heaven, the soul is alive - not dead. (Rom 6,8)

Beautiful!

 

[GraceDK]

izoid; I think you have a very unreal view of our protestant brothers and sisters. Where did you get the 99.9% figure?

I was in a very conservative, fundamental protestant denomination for 20 years and can assure you that Mary was neither respected or called “blessed”. In fact, we stayed as far away from Mary as possible so that we in no way looked Catholic. In coming to the Catholic Church, Mary was the biggest hurdle for both my wife and I to get over.

Good for you. I also spent 20 yeears in Protestantism, before I became a Catholic. After that I kept visiting churches of all kinds, especially Pentecostal and Messianic congregations.
These people, if asked, would have quoted the words from the Bible which call Mary blessed. They did however, talk as little about her as the Bible does (and I dont think the Bible authors disrespected Mary). But never was a bad word mentioned about her, or one that degraded her. Once I heard a sermon which talked about Mary too in the Pentecostal church, praising her faith.
Neither did I hear any warning against her as a person. One time I visited a small fundamentalist church where I was put against a wall and warned explicitly about the Catholic Chuch and “marian worship”. This again was not against Mary per se but against what was perceived as Catholic idolatry.

I agree that equting birth control with dislike for Mary was not a good move. I do however, understand the point that was being made and it is legitimate. In order to love Mary, a clear understanding and respect for motherhood is needed. It can be argued that individuals that use birth control do not have a full appreciation for motherhood. Since their appreciation for and understanding of motherhood is compromised, they can not have a complete appreciation for Mary. This does not, however, equate to a dislike for her.

**You might wanna take that up in another thread. I dont find my Protestant family, who is totally void of marian devotion, to be lacking in understanding about the value and beauty of motherhood. I also believe I have a clear understanding and respect of motherhood albeit my almost non-existing devotion to the Virgin Mary, and I am against contraception just like you are.
I wonder who in the world has the full understanding of motherhood expect Christ. I for one have met many Jews for instance who love their many children and nurture their families, and they dont use contraceptives… needless to say these are not praying to the Virgin Mary either.
So enough of the generalizations and ignorance that discredit our brothers.

**

 

[izoid]

Two points: First, agreed, the original post referred to “some” non-Catholics. I am sure that with a billion Catholics, there are even a few Catholics that do not especially like Mary. I mean really, anything is possible. Unfortunately the title line is “why do non catholics dislike Mother Mary?” People read the title line and start posting, I fear. I certainly did.

Second, I heard it observed by a wise Protestant minister that while perhaps the Catholics have too much devotion to Mary, Protestants have too little. And whether or not Catholics have too much, not enough or just right, it can safely be argued that their devotion to Mary is greater than that of most Protestants. Some of this reflects the general Protestant aversion to devotion to saints, and since Marian devotion is the most intense, Protestant aversion to it is probably more forthrightly stated.

The most important thing to remember that, with the exception of a few liberals, no Protestants deny the virgin birth of Jesus. The fact that some Marian doctrines are incomprehensible to them does not suggest a dislike of the Blessed Virgin.

This is a verywise and honest evaluation. I agree 100% with what you have stated, thank you!

 

[izoid]

Good for you. I also spent 20 yeears in Protestantism, before I became a Catholic. After that I kept visiting churches of all kinds, especially Pentecostal and Messianic congregations.
These people, if asked, would have quoted the words from the Bible which call Mary blessed. They did however, talk as little about her as the Bible does (and I dont think the Bible authors disrespected Mary). But never was a bad word mentioned about her, or one that degraded her. Once I heard a sermon which talked about Mary too in the Pentecostal church, praising her faith.
Neither did I hear any warning against her as a person. One time I visited a small fundamentalist church where I was put against a wall and warned explicitly about the Catholic Chuch and “marian worship”. This again was not against Mary per se but against what was perceived as Catholic idolatry.

**You might wanna take that up in another thread. I dont find my Protestant family, who is totally void of marian devotion, to be lacking in understanding about the value and beauty of motherhood. I also believe I have a clear understanding and respect of motherhood albeit my almost non-existing devotion to the Virgin Mary, and I am against contraception just like you are.
I wonder who in the world has the full understanding of motherhood expect Christ. I for one have met many Jews for instance who love their many children and nurture their families, and they dont use contraceptives… needless to say these are not praying to the Virgin Mary either.
So enough of the generalizations and ignorance that discredit our brothers.

**

First off, just because you don’t agree does not give you the right to call anyone ignorant.

It is you that is not understanding what was said, I simply attempted to clarify it. I don’t know if it is a language barrier or what but you keep saying that a lack of Marian devotion causes something else to happen, in this case a lack of understanding of motherhood. What has been said is exactly opposite. A lack of understanding of motherhood leads to a diminsihed view of Mary. For some reason you keep turning the argument around.

Not having a strong devotion to Mary does not lead to a diminished view of motherhood or the use of condoms. However, the use of condoms can lead to a diminished view of motherhood which can lead to a diminished view of Mary.

 

[peary1]

First off, just because you don’t agree does not give you the right to call anyone ignorant.

It is you that is not understanding what was said, I simply attempted to clarify it. I don’t know if it is a language barrier or what but you keep saying that a lack of Marian devotion causes something else to happen, in this case a lack of understanding of motherhood. What has been said is exactly opposite. A lack of understanding of motherhood leads to a diminsihed view of Mary. For some reason you keep turning the argument around.

Not having a strong devotion to Mary does not lead to a diminished view of motherhood or the use of condoms. However, the use of condoms can lead to a diminished view of motherhood which can lead to a diminished view of Mary.

Excellent response

 

[Le_Cracquere]

You really live a sheltered life, don’t you?

I suppose I must be sheltered as well, having also never encountered such a person in my four-plus decades on this planet. Having been reared by Pentecostals in the heart of the Bible Belt, you’d think I of all folks would have met one of these Protestant Mary-haters. Odd, that.

 

[Roy5]

ABOUT MARY

 No Protestant I know dislikes Mary! That suggestion is wildly wrong. Certainly at Christmas the role of Mary in a Protestant pageant or tableau always is treasured. She is far more important than Joseph, the angels, the shepherds and the Magi,

 Protestants don't pray to her because the Bible doesn't suggest that we do. Take St. Paul. In all of his letters advising early Christians on theology and more but he never once mentions Mary. If she were so central to Christianity, please explain that.

 Except for the birth and crucifixion of Jesus, Mary is only mentioned twice in the Gospels, and in both cases Jesus doesn't seem to elevate her.

  I believe there also is a good case that Jesus had siblings. Reread Matt, 1:25. And the Bible speaks of Jesus' brothers. There is something bizarre about a happily married couple not having sexual relations. It's grounds for divorce just about anywhere in the world. On the one hand Catholicism claims to encourage wholesome sex in marriage. At the same time it promotes adulation of Mary, in part because of her 'purity', Just what is impure about conjugal relations between loving husbands and wives? It is one of the purest relationships that I can imagine and it ought to be celebrated and in no way demeaned.

 Now AmericanJosiah makes the suggestion (#211) that artificial contraception explains why people dislike or disrespect Mary. He says that using artificial birth control cheapens respect for motherhood and makes sexual relations an act purely for pleasure.

Actually, I have found just the opposite true. Family planning honors women and helps permit them to decide when they feel they should have another baby. I recall as a child a woman down the road (farm country), a devout Catholic family, who tried to take her life when she found that she was pregnant for the 14th time. 

 But isn't the Catholic calendar system of acceptable contraception just another way of saying 'no' to God? The woman is not open to contraception - at least, that is her/their intention. 

  I doubt if child abuse is greater today than in the past. Perhaps even less of it. I can recall during my childhood years when even nuns would beat children who misbehaved. And "spare the rod and spoil the child' - from the Bible - was the prevailing philosophy and practice in millions of Christian homes. My wife, an ex-Catholic, left the church when she reached adulthood in part because of her bad experiences in parochial school, experiences that would not be tolerated today. Once she was whacked by a nun in front of the class because she forgot it was the day the students went to mass as a group and her blouse didn't cover her elbows - or some such archaic tradition which has since been abandoned (I think). Thank you, John XXIII and Paul VI. 

   If people want to venerate Mary, fine. A free country. But the notion that Protestants dislike Mary is foolishness. The elevation of Mary developed in Christendom, likely because Christianity was competing with the mystery cults, some of which had a 'Virgin Queen of Heaven'. The most effective way of winning was to adopt the tradition and thereby 'steal' a popular practice from a rival.  

   Merry Christmas to Catholics, Protestants and all humankind. Let us work together to make religion a bridge and not a barrier. We should agree to disagree and leave it at that. This universe may have 100 million solar systems, and we waste our time pretending to know its secrets and pushing others to adopt our viewpoint. Poppycock. We walk by faith and not by knowledge, and I'm content to do that without claiming that my church or any church is the only true and apostolic one.

 

[GraceDK]

**izoid; A lack of understanding of motherhood leads to a diminsihed view of Mary. For some reason you keep turning the argument around.

Not having a strong devotion to Mary does not lead to a diminished view of motherhood or the use of condoms. However, the use of condoms can lead to a diminished view of motherhood which can lead to a diminished view of Mary.**

I understand you quite well though. I just disagree with you and think your words are arrogant and ignorant. But you need not worry about my oppinion…
because of my lacking marian deevotion i, according to you, have a “diminished view on motherhood”, so has my whole family…
I dont really care to prove the opposite to you. Knowing the truth about it is enough for me.
If you want to remain in your prejudices againt Catholics that dont focus much on Mary, Protestants, Evangelicals and Jews (who by the way, like me, are against contraceptives) then you are free to do so.

 

[izoid]

**
I understand you quite well though. I just disagree with you and think your words are arrogant and ignorant. But you need not worry about my oppinion…
because of my lacking marian deevotion i, according to you, have a “diminished view on motherhood”, so has my whole family…**
You quoted me as saying this, "Not having a strong devotion to Mary does not lead to a diminished view of motherhood ". You then make this post? How does that quote lead you to say what you did? TYour accusation is false, I said just the opposite and have gone out of my way to clarify that with you yet you continue to persist in this lie. Stop lying about what I have said.
I dont really care to prove the opposite to you. Knowing the truth about it is enough for me.
If you want to remain in your prejudices againt Catholics that dont focus much on Mary, Protestants, Evangelicals and Jews (who by the way, like me, are against contraceptives) then you are free to do so.

I can not understand why you have turned this into a personal issue with me? I have never said that you have a diminished view of motherhood. No matter what I say or how I say it, you turn it around and refuse to accept what I am really saying. Are you doing this on purpose?

You are making false statements about what I have said and I think you are doing it on purpose. Please stop, your integrity is in question if you do not.

Now, for the record, I do not say that you, or your family, have a diminished view of motherhood because of your lack of Marian devotion. What I did, and am saying is, someone with a diminished view of motherhood will likely have a diminished view of Mary. Easy enough right?

BTW…name calling is really unbecoming of you. I would expect it from an 8 year old but not from you.

 

[Timothy_Piper]

It comes from John 19:26,27

When Jesus tell John :“Behold, Your mother”…John then takes Mary into his own home and cares for her.

Catholics see that as the time when Jesus gave His mother to us as a our Mother as well.

That will fly with the average person.

 

[Timothy_Piper]

ABOUT MARY

 No Protestant I know dislikes Mary! That suggestion is wildly wrong. Certainly at Christmas the role of Mary in a Protestant pageant or tableau always is treasured. She is far more important than Joseph, the angels, the shepherds and the Magi,

 Protestants don't pray to her because the Bible doesn't suggest that we do. Take St. Paul. In all of his letters advising early Christians on theology and more but he never once mentions Mary. If she were so central to Christianity, please explain that.

 Except for the birth and crucifixion of Jesus, Mary is only mentioned twice in the Gospels, and in both cases Jesus doesn't seem to elevate her.

  I believe there also is a good case that Jesus had siblings. Reread Matt, 1:25. And the Bible speaks of Jesus' brothers. There is something bizarre about a happily married couple not having sexual relations. It's grounds for divorce just about anywhere in the world. On the one hand Catholicism claims to encourage wholesome sex in marriage. At the same time it promotes adulation of Mary, in part because of her 'purity', Just what is impure about conjugal relations between loving husbands and wives? It is one of the purest relationships that I can imagine and it ought to be celebrated and in no way demeaned.

 Now AmericanJosiah makes the suggestion (#211) that artificial contraception explains why people dislike or disrespect Mary. He says that using artificial birth control cheapens respect for motherhood and makes sexual relations an act purely for pleasure.

Actually, I have found just the opposite true. Family planning honors women and helps permit them to decide when they feel they should have another baby. I recall as a child a woman down the road (farm country), a devout Catholic family, who tried to take her life when she found that she was pregnant for the 14th time. 

 But isn't the Catholic calendar system of acceptable contraception just another way of saying 'no' to God? The woman is not open to contraception - at least, that is her/their intention. 

  I doubt if child abuse is greater today than in the past. Perhaps even less of it. I can recall during my childhood years when even nuns would beat children who misbehaved. And "spare the rod and spoil the child' - from the Bible - was the prevailing philosophy and practice in millions of Christian homes. My wife, an ex-Catholic, left the church when she reached adulthood in part because of her bad experiences in parochial school, experiences that would not be tolerated today. Once she was whacked by a nun in front of the class because she forgot it was the day the students went to mass as a group and her blouse didn't cover her elbows - or some such archaic tradition which has since been abandoned (I think). Thank you, John XXIII and Paul VI. 

   If people want to venerate Mary, fine. A free country. But the notion that Protestants dislike Mary is foolishness. The elevation of Mary developed in Christendom, likely because Christianity was competing with the mystery cults, some of which had a 'Virgin Queen of Heaven'. The most effective way of winning was to adopt the tradition and thereby 'steal' a popular practice from a rival.  

   Merry Christmas to Catholics, Protestants and all humankind. Let us work together to make religion a bridge and not a barrier. We should agree to disagree and leave it at that. This universe may have 100 million solar systems, and we waste our time pretending to know its secrets and pushing others to adopt our viewpoint. Poppycock. We walk by faith and not by knowledge, and I'm content to do that without claiming that my church or any church is the only true and apostolic one.