Why do non catholics dislike Mother Mary?

[lil_flower_luv]

I have heard some people refer to Mary as ‘nothing more than a vessel’
Um, ew.
Just, ew.
As a mother, if someone said I was nothing more than a vessel for my children, I would smack them in the mouth. Luckily for us, Jesus is alot nicer than me.

 

[JonNC]

We know from studies, that Catholics, in general, read the Scripture the least of almost all denominations. .

Hi Timothy,
Care to add a link to one or more of these studies? Sorry, without a link, I find the notion that Catholic Christians read scripture less than others to be, at best, questionable.

Jon

 

[SHW]

Trust me; you do not want to compare her to the “queen of heaven”-FYI I agree from the earthly or human perspective that we are commanded to have very high regard (double honor) for the pastors who protect/guard their flock and work hard at preaching and teaching. 1Tim. 5:17

Herod was a king and he was actually an evil king, but his evilness as king does not make Jesus an evil king. Jesus is a good king. So here is an example of both a bad king and a good king. We Christians have a Father in heaven whom we call God who is all good, but Satan is called the father of all the evil persons who lie. (John 8:44) So, we have an example of both a good Father and a bad father. Satan is a fallen angel, but we have many good angels such as Michael and Gabriel. Both good and evil kings exist, both good and evil fathers exist, and both good and evil angels exist.

1 Peter 3:21-22
Jesus Christ, 22 who has gone into heaven and is at the right hand of God, angels and authorities and powers having been made subject to Him.

Jesus is now king. His current and eternal status is King of heaven and earth. It makes no difference to Jesus’ present status in heaven as king that there were also many evil kings who came before Him.

There are Scriptural references to a pagan goddess whom they called the queen of heaven (Jeremiah 7:18). This goddess who was called the queen of heaven is not the real queen of heaven because the real queen of heaven is the mother of Jesus and she is definitely not a goddess.

Mary, the mother of Jesus the king of heaven and earth, receives her status as queen of heaven because the mothers of the kings in the Davidic line of kings are ALWAYS called queens in the Davidic kingdom. No mere man such as yourself can take this honor away from Mary nor can you negate her importance by choosing to believe that she is not the queen of heaven and earth. Jesus bestowed the “future” honor of queen upon her when He chose her to be His mother “before” He actually was crowned King. She received her crown as queen after she entered into heaven just as Jesus received His crown after He ascended into heaven. (Revelation 1:5)

Rev 12 refers to Israel, not Mary. The church is in heaven already, only Israel is yet to be redeemed. the OT passage to verify this is Genesis 37:9 ; it uses 11 because the speaker, Joseph is the twelfth.

This is symbolic and can mean more than one thing. The woman is crowned with **twelve **stars and this can be symbolic for the twelve tribes of Israel. A crown means royalty. The Church was first headed by the twelve apostles so these may also be in her crown because she also symbolizes the Church. And, the woman can also be Mary, the Mother of Jesus, the Ark of the New Covenant, because she is greater than all the twelve stars in her crown. Her dignity comes through her Son, our Lord and Savior and King.

Sorry, I do not buy into the Marian theology of any sort; I understand what Steve compared, but means nothing to me.

Rev 12 can refer to either Mary, or to the Church, and/or also to Israel depending on the particular lesson that the Church is teaching concerning this symbolism. Your choosing to not believe alters nothing in the heavenly realm. Mary will forever be the queen of heaven and earth whether you believe it or not (while you are on earth). I am very thankful that I have been given the grace to believe this truth because I can and do give her the honor that she merits even while I am still on earth. It pleases Jesus that I honor His mother. He honors her eternally as His queen mother. (Matthew 15:4)

 

[Justy90]

As is your comment.

Would you care to explain the Catholic position then instead of just attacking with one liners?

 

[SHW]

I’m sure that being a SS & OSAS Christian is part of the problem; so I agree. Deeper understanding of Christ only comes from the Scripture and this is a command from God through Peter to do so. Peter gives a warning when the person does not. The passage in conjunction with much of Scripture concerning the Holy Spirit who teaches and guides each believer as well, not a body of men. We know from studies, that Catholics, in general, read the Scripture the least of almost all denominations. I don’t believe it would apply to CAF Catholic members compared to the general population of Catholics. John 17:17; Jesus tells us in no uncertain terms how we are to be sanctified. If you really desire that sanctifying grace, then in His Word is where it will be found.

John 17:14-19
I have given them Your word; and the world has hated them because they are not of the world, just as I am not of the world. 15 I do not pray that You should take them out of the world, but that You should keep them from the evil one. 16 They are not of the world, just as I am not of the world. 17 Sanctify them by Your truth. Your word is truth. 18 As You sent Me into the world, I also have sent them into the world. 19 And for their sakes I sanctify Myself, that they also may be sanctified by the truth.

The context: His Word is the gospel. His truth is His gospel. Jesus is speaking of the leaders of His Church and He is praying for them. Jesus gave them His authority to minister His New Covenant just as Moses was given His authority to minister His Old Covenant.

He is not speaking of “individuals” who pick up the Bible and try to interpret it for themselves. He is speaking of His personally chosen leaders of His Church and He said that they speak for Him and if a person does not listen to His Church leaders, then they are to be treated as heathens and tax collectors. If they refuse to listen to His Church leaders, then they are also refusing to listen to Him.

Matthew 18:17
And if he refuses to hear them, tell it to the church. But if he refuses even to hear the church, let him be to you like a heathen and a tax collector.

Luke 10:16
He who hears you (Church leaders) hears Me, he who rejects you (Church leaders) rejects Me, and he who rejects Me rejects Him who sent Me.

All that the leaders of His Church teach both orally (word) and written (epistle) are the commandments of the Lord.

2 Thessalonians 2:15
Therefore, brethren, stand fast and hold the traditions which you were taught, whether by word or our epistle.

1 Corinthians 14:37
If anyone thinks himself to be a prophet or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things which I write to you are the commandments of the Lord.

The Church leaders and their successors rule over us in the faith.

Hebrews 13:17
Obey those who rule over you, and be submissive, for they watch out for your souls, as those who must give account. Let them do so with joy and not with grief, for that would be unprofitable for you.

1 Thessalonians 5:12
And we urge you, brethren, to recognize those who labor among you, and are over you in the Lord and admonish you,

Jesus set up a hierarchy in His Church. It does not matter if some people do not like it. He is Lord and this is His command.

1 Timothy 3:1
This is a faithful saying: If a man desires the position of a bishop, he desires a good work.

1 Timothy 3:10
But let these also first be tested; then let them serve as deacons, being found blameless.

Apostolic succession:

2 Timothy 2:2
And the things that you have heard from me among many witnesses, commit these to faithful men who will be able to teach others also.

No person is supposed to buy a Bible and then start his own new religion based upon his own private interpretation. Jesus has a Church already set up to minister to His followers.

2 Peter 1:20
knowing this first, that no prophecy of Scripture is of any private interpretation

2 Peter 3:16
as also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which untaught and unstable people twist to their own destruction, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures.

 

[peary1]

Quote:
Originally Posted by AmericanJosiah
.
Two comments:

1. Reading some of the posts here, there seems to be a huge disconnect between what a verse says and what an interpreter thinks it might mean. They aren’t the same thing. What it says is limited by what it says – in words, created by letters (those black things). Now, ANYONE can think such MEANS whatever that one wants - such may be sound or absurd, that’s a whole other issue requiring arbitration and examination. But to insist, “The verse says…” when all literate people KNOW it does not seems to be less than honest and probably not a constructive conversation.
2. I’m still trying to figure out how most of the posts by our Catholic brothers and sisters here is substantiating that “non Catholics dislike Mary.”

---

Perhaps a better title for the post should have been: “Why are nonCatholics indifferent to Mary?” There would have been a different dynamic at work with this title rather than with the word ‘dislike’.

As for # 1, I would trust the Church’s interpretation of Mary in the role of salvation history because the Church knows Her own Scriptures inside and out, and has theologically found analogies that make sense. To attempt to divorce the Scriptures from the Church that gave them to the world is not only preposterous but leads to serious errors in interpretation.

 

[jen_fla]

i apologize if anyone mentioned this before but an excellent read to help anyone that loves, dislikes, or is indifferent to Mary is:
*
Mary, mirror of the Church* by raniero cantalamessa

 

[GraceDK]

I am confused on how you say loving Mary will not help you become a “better” catholic -that is not the point at all… We all see Jesus on a Divine level as son of God, but when we see Jesus on the human level as son of Mary, we can relate with him on a personal level… Jesus is now -not only our Lord, but also our “Brother” whom we can relate to and imitate as human to human… Once we get to know Jesus on BOTH levels, it seems as though we naturally or perhaps spiritually also develop the relationship with the mother of Jesus. It is not that Catholics NEED a relationship with her, rather that the relationship becomes a natural result. To love Mary as Jesus did is to be familiar with the Divine AND human aspects of our Lord.

So in an indirect kind of way -those who don’t love Mary, don’t fully know Jesus. And by the way, as a cradle Catholic -it took me 32 years to come to understand this. So “growing up with it” does not necessarily mean that Catholics automatically “believe” what the Catholic Church says about Mary… Many Catholics are confused on it, obviously Luther was too. It takes a deeper understanding.

But I think you are on the right path, as one needs to know the trinity first -then the love for Mary will develop.

Those who don’t love Mary dont fully know Jesus, you say.
Thats a doctrine of your own imagination, sir.
This is exactly the point where I think some Catholic devotion to Mary turns disproportionate, when she is used in the way that you now do, to make a persons relationship with Christ depend on ones relationship to Mary.
As for me, my relationship with Mary depends on Jesus entirely. Not the other way around.
The Holy Spirit leads me to Jesus. Mary in her self leads me to no one. Jesus leads me to to His Father… and then Jesus introduced me to His Mother Mary and told me, “be happy about Mary, because she has been so good to me and brought me so much joy”.

My relationship with Mary became more strained after I heard enough of the kind of talk that you represent, which uses Mary as a scism and sometimes tends to put her in the center. I rather prefer an israeli kind of worship, which is very Godcentred, like also the spirituality of the apostles, and eg. St Patrick.

I’ll tell you what. Since the beginning I have loved especially the image of Jesus as my Brother. Yet when I had my conversion experience it did not happen within the Catholic Church. I know bunches of Christians from all kinds of churches, and all over the churches there are people that have fallen asleep and there are people who love and serve Jesus full of the fire of the Holy Spirit. This is the wish of Mary and she is wholly content when she looks at these people, I am sure. Many of these people do not have a personal relationship with Mary at all.
You can say that, for your self, Mary has made it easier for you to be a good Catholic and you find her a help when it comes to meditating on the fact that God has adopted you so that you are son of God - in a purely human sense, Jesus is not more your brother than any other neighbour - its God the Father who has adopted you in Christ to be his son and the brother of Christ. Dont forget that.

I am happy for you that Mary has inspired you. But dont make Mary into a measure of Christian worship and love for Jesus, in any sense of the word. You are so wrong if you do that.

Peace to you.

 

[Bill_Pick]

Excellent!

A very good post thank You

 

[peary1]

Those who don’t love Mary dont fully know Jesus, you say.
Thats a doctrine of your own imagination, sir.

Do you use birth control in your marriage, too? Are you divorced?

 

[izoid]

Would you care to explain the Catholic position then instead of just attacking with one liners?

You’re funny.

It was your one liner that I was replying too. I was making a point about one liners. YOu silly person.

YOur hostility to Catholics and Catholicism are not wasted upon me. I have no interest in restating what has been said in this thread already. Thank you for the offer though.

 

[MyRdmrLvs]

i apologize if anyone mentioned this before but an excellent read to help anyone that loves, dislikes, or is indifferent to Mary is:
*
Mary, mirror of the Church* by raniero cantalamessa

I recommend using Gods word rather than the words of men. In this thread we have words of men parcing the word “worship” . Their final conclusion to this procces is

that its ok to worship Mary, so long as you dont worship Mary. If we stick with what God’s Word says there is a much clearer possiosion, worship ONLY God. The adoration of Mary on this thread has even been minimised by comparing it to the love of icecream, yet we dont see statues of a carton of B&J’s being carried on the shoulders of believers and people dont pray to their haagen-dazs bars!

 

[Roy5]

MARY AND OTHER CHILDREN

 I have wondered how Catholic-approved translations of the gospels handle Matt 1:25. My New English Bible says that Joseph "took Mary home to be his wife, but had no intercourse with her until her son was born. And he named the child Jesus."

 The King James Version says  that Joseph "knew her not till she had brought forth her firstborn son, and he called his name Jesus." 

  The New International Version states that Joseph "had no union with her until she gave birth to a son...." 

 The Living Bible says that "she remained a virgin until her Son was born...."

  The Revised Standard Version reads that Joseph "knew her not until she had borne a son...."

   Phillips Modern English translation reads that Joseph "married Mary, but had no intercourse with her until she had given birth to a son...."

   All these suggest that Mary and Joseph lived as a normal married couple after Jesus was born, sharing physical intimacy, which suggests that they could have had additional children. I guess I don't understand why the Catholic position is to fiercely maintain that Mary remained a life-long virgin. The verse certainly doesn't suggest that, and without mentioning the references to the brothers of Jesus elsewhere in the gospels. And why is it better to live as a life-long married virgin than to be a married woman and have normal relations with your husband? I guess I'll never get that. They seem more like a "Holy Family' if they lived as a healthy, bonafide family. Besides, it seems to make normal sexual relations within marriage somehow inferior to perpetual virginity, which to me is in contradiction to God's first command in Genesis: "Be fruitful and multiply."

  Mary certainly deserves our affection and gratitude, but has Catholicism carried veneration of Mary too far? That is the issue between Catholicism and Protestantism.

  Merry Christmas to all (since we have 11 days left) and a blessed New Year to Catholics, Protestants and people of every creed, color and country.

 

[Bill_Pick]

I had some fruicake for Christmas and boy was it GOOD

 

[rev_kevin]

MARY AND OTHER CHILDREN

 I have wondered how Catholic-approved translations of the gospels handle Matt 1:25. My New English Bible says that Joseph "took Mary home to be his wife, but had no intercourse with her until her son was born. And he named the child Jesus."

 The King James Version says  that Joseph "knew her not till she had brought forth her firstborn son, and he called his name Jesus." 

  The New International Version states that Joseph "had no union with her until she gave birth to a son...." 

 The Living Bible says that "she remained a virgin until her Son was born...."

  The Revised Standard Version reads that Joseph "knew her not until she had borne a son...."

   Phillips Modern English translation reads that Joseph "married Mary, but had no intercourse with her until she had given birth to a son...."

   All these suggest that Mary and Joseph lived as a normal married couple after Jesus was born, sharing physical intimacy, which suggests that they could have had additional children. I guess I don't understand why the Catholic position is to fiercely maintain that Mary remained a life-long virgin. The verse certainly doesn't suggest that, and without mentioning the references to the brothers of Jesus elsewhere in the gospels. And why is it better to live as a life-long married virgin than to be a married woman and have normal relations with your husband? I guess I'll never get that. They seem more like a "Holy Family' if they lived as a healthy, bonafide family. Besides, it seems to make normal sexual relations within marriage somehow inferior to perpetual virginity, which to me is in contradiction to God's first command in Genesis: "Be fruitful and multiply."

  Mary certainly deserves our affection and gratitude, but has Catholicism carried veneration of Mary too far? That is the issue between Catholicism and Protestantism.

  Merry Christmas to all (since we have 11 days left) and a blessed New Year to Catholics, Protestants and people of every creed, color and country.

We had this same discussion on a post called “Trinity and Hellfire is a fales teaching” but all of a sudden its not here anymore. I believe that Mary the mother of Jesus has other children and I have been looking into the whole thing for the discussion on the thread I mentioned.

 

[izoid]

MARY AND OTHER CHILDREN

 I have wondered how Catholic-approved translations of the gospels handle Matt 1:25. My New English Bible says that Joseph "took Mary home to be his wife, but had no intercourse with her until her son was born. And he named the child Jesus."

 The King James Version says  that Joseph "knew her not till she had brought forth her firstborn son, and he called his name Jesus." 

  The New International Version states that Joseph "had no union with her until she gave birth to a son...." 

 The Living Bible says that "she remained a virgin until her Son was born...."

  The Revised Standard Version reads that Joseph "knew her not until she had borne a son...."

   Phillips Modern English translation reads that Joseph "married Mary, but had no intercourse with her until she had given birth to a son...."

   All these suggest that Mary and Joseph lived as a normal married couple after Jesus was born, sharing physical intimacy, which suggests that they could have had additional children. I guess I don't understand why the Catholic position is to fiercely maintain that Mary remained a life-long virgin. The verse certainly doesn't suggest that, and without mentioning the references to the brothers of Jesus elsewhere in the gospels. And why is it better to live as a life-long married virgin than to be a married woman and have normal relations with your husband? I guess I'll never get that. They seem more like a "Holy Family' if they lived as a healthy, bonafide family. Besides, it seems to make normal sexual relations within marriage somehow inferior to perpetual virginity, which to me is in contradiction to God's first command in Genesis: "Be fruitful and multiply."

  Mary certainly deserves our affection and gratitude, but has Catholicism carried veneration of Mary too far? That is the issue between Catholicism and Protestantism.

  Merry Christmas to all (since we have 11 days left) and a blessed New Year to Catholics, Protestants and people of every creed, color and country.

If you go back and read this thread you will see that this has been gone over ad naseum.

There is nothing to indicate that the had sexual relations. The term is used to show that they did not have sex at all, before or during her pregnancy. It in no ways asserts that they had sex after.

Go through the thread as the issue has been dealt with in much more detail.

 

[AmericanJosiah]

.

I’m TRYING to understand the Catholic perspectives here…

Everyone must have a personal dislike for Mary if they use a condom.
Does this apply to Catholics, too? To non-Catholics who don’t use a condom?
How does this support that non-Catholics dislike Mary?

Everyone must have a personal dislike for Mary if they don’t pray to Her.
So, if a Catholic doesn’t pray to President Obama, that Catholic hates him?
How does this support that non-Catholics dislike Mary?

Everyone must have a personal dislike for Mary if they think she had more than one child.
So, if a woman has more than one child, all must ergo have a great personal dislike for her?
How does this point substantiate that non-Catholics really dislike Mary personally?



.

 

[GraceDK]

Do you use birth control in your marriage, too? Are you divorced?

This is not even worthy of a reply.
Precisely people like you make the Mother of Jesus into a stumbling block to other Christians and create divisions.
Do you honestly think you are doing either Jesus or his mother a favour by using her in this foolish way?
The gist of it is, that it was implied that people that don’t love Mary and have a developed devotion to her are not good Christians and have a flawed relationship with Jesus.
This is no way Biblical nor is it charitable.
I can only say that I am happy it’s not the common Catholic point of view either.

That you take the distorted thinking even further stands for your own account and that you accuse other people of sin and blindness because they don’t share your marian spirituality is simply ingorant. I can only urge you to go out to as many different Christians as you can and learn about the diversity of prayerlife, devotion, spirituality etc and see the heroic virtue in all Christian groups. You’d be surprised…

 

[GraceDK]

.

I’m TRYING to understand the Catholic perspectives here…

Everyone must have a personal dislike for Mary if they use a condom.
Does this apply to Catholics, too? To non-Catholics who don’t use a condom?
How does this support that non-Catholics dislike Mary?

Everyone must have a personal dislike for Mary if they don’t pray to Her.
So, if a Catholic doesn’t pray to President Obama, that Catholic hates him?
How does this support that non-Catholics dislike Mary?

Everyone must have a personal dislike for Mary if they think she had more than one child.
So, if a woman has more than one child, all must ergo have a great personal dislike for her?
How does this point substantiate that non-Catholics really dislike Mary personally?



.

Brother, forgive the ignorant blindness and uncharitable, illogical talk on this thread. Much of it is truly prejudiced nonsense.

 

[izoid]

.

I’m TRYING to understand the Catholic perspectives here…

Everyone must have a personal dislike for Mary if they use a condom.
Does this apply to Catholics, too? To non-Catholics who don’t use a condom?
How does this support that non-Catholics dislike Mary?

Everyone must have a personal dislike for Mary if they don’t pray to Her.
So, if a Catholic doesn’t pray to President Obama, that Catholic hates him?
How does this support that non-Catholics dislike Mary?

Everyone must have a personal dislike for Mary if they think she had more than one child.
So, if a woman has more than one child, all must ergo have a great personal dislike for her?
How does this point substantiate that non-Catholics really dislike Mary personally?



.

If you REALLY believe what you have posted you certainly are confused. Please re read the thread and I am certain you will see how far off you are. Start with posts 212, 233, 245.

BTW…Why do you keep twisting things around instead of sticking to what is really being said?