Why do non catholics dislike Mother Mary?

[SHW]

Interesting, Lets say for the sake of discussion that Peter went to rome and spread the gospel and the gospel was passed down and along the way developed various “traditions”, meanwhile one of the 60 who were sent out, he went off in another direction and spread the gospel and started churches and that gospel was handed down while also adding “traditions” as time goes on these churches bump into one another and compare “traditions” and reject each others “traditions” But the origin is the same Saviour. So debate about traditions and things that developed over time is one thing but to claim the other is not the true church or that one church should lord over the others that is where we
have gone astray.

They did have problems with this very thing. So they convened councils to straighten the messes out. The councils (pope and magisterium) have the force of law ,so every one must obey the rulings of these councils. However, some of the hierarchy at the councils refuse to obey the decision of the councils.

People are free to debate and discuss their own ideas until the pope and magisterium make their decision about the validity of these “ideas.” After a negative decision is made by the pope and magisterium concerning these “ideas,” then if they continue to teach them, they are no longer members in good standing within the church membership.

This is one of the reasons why some members of the hierarchy split from the Catholic Church and formed the Orthodox Church in about the year 1000 A.D. They do not agree with us because we teach that the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father and the Son. They teach that He proceeds from the Father.

Luther and others did much the same thing. They split from the Catholic Church over disagreements concerning doctrine. They decided to interpret Scripture for themselves instead of listening to the Church.

This is why the “Keys” are so important. Jesus only promised the Holy Spirit to guide His one Church (the one He built upon Peter to whom He gave His keys of authority) into all truth. Any church which does not have the Pope with the keys does not have the protection of the Holy Spirit to prevent it from teaching error.

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

I’m interested in your direct and specific opinion of my direct questions. They answer your question to me.

I apologize Dokimas. I thought your questions were theoretical and you didn’t expect answers. If you truly were looking for answers, mine are, yes, yes, yes, yes, no. (I certainly hope I counted them correctly. )

 

[Timothy_Piper]

Thank you. I missed that.

So, Timothy,

[SIGN]There are two apostles named James.[/SIGN]

“When morning came, he called his disciples to him and chose twelve of them, whom he also designated apostles: Simon (whom he named Peter), his brother Andrew, James, John, Philip, Bartholomew, Matthew, Thomas, James son of Alphaeus, Simon who was called the Zealot, Judas son of James, and Judas Iscariot, who became a traitor.”(Luke 6:13-16)

[SIGN] One James (the brother of John) is not the uterine brother of Jesus; his father is Zebedee[/SIGN].

“James son of Zebedee and his brother John (to them he gave the name Boanerges, which means Sons of Thunder)” (Mark 3:17)

[SIGN]The other apostle named James is not the uterine brother of Jesus; his father is Alpheus[/SIGN].

“And when it was day, he called his disciples, and chose from them twelve, whom he called apostles: Simon, whom he named Peter and Andrew his brother, and James and John and Philip and Bartholomew, and Matthew and James the son of Alphaeus, and Simon who was called the Zealot, and Judas the son of James and Judas Iscariot, who became a traitor.” (Luke 6:13-16)

[SIGN]Therefore, neither apostle named James was a uterine brother of Jesus.[/SIGN]
(repeated post, originally by Randy Carson; BB codes by PRmerger)

Oh Lord help me to help others in understanding your truth; your Word is Your truth. amen
Matthew 10
2 Now the names of the twelve apostles are these: The first, Simon, who is called Peter, and Andrew his brother; and James the son of Zebedee, and John his brother; 3 Philip and Bartholomew; Thomas and Matthew the tax collector; James the son of Alphaeus, and Thaddaeus; 4 Simon the Zealot, and Judas Iscariot, the one who betrayed Him.

Where is the Lord’s brother? Not here because He is not part of the 12 APOSTLES.

“Is not this the carpenter’s son? Is not His mother called Mary, and His brothers, James and Joseph and Simon and Judas?” Is this the James listed as part of the 12 in Matthew? No. Are these any of the 12? No.

“But I did not see any other of the apostles except James, the Lord’s brother.” Gal. 1:19

James was not converted until Jesus appeared to him after the resurrection.

1 Co. 15
He was buried, and that He was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures, 5 and that He appeared to Cephas, then to the twelve. 6 After that He appeared to more than five hundred brethren at one time, most of whom remain until now, but some have fallen asleep; 7 then He appeared to James, then to all the apostles; 8 and last of all, as to one untimely born, He appeared to me also.

 

[Dokimas]

I apologize Dokimas. I thought your questions were theoretical and you didn’t expect answers. If you truly were looking for answers, mine are, yes, yes, yes, yes, no. (I certainly hope I counted them correctly. )

My response was to your point that the idea of theTtrinity and the perpetual virginity of Mary are the same with respect to Biblical treatment of these terms. My response was intended to show that the Bible gives us direct reasons to use the term ‘Trinity’ but that there are better Biblical reasons to conclude that Mary was not celebate her whole life so the term 'perpetually a virgin is not easily seen in the Bible as ‘Trinity’ is.

 

[SHW]

Does this mean he can no longer plea ignorance, like myself, therefore if we do not join you Catholic church, then we lose our salvation and are damned?

This does not include you. You do not believe that the Catholic Church is the true Church.

The only persons who are damned for this crime against Jesus (they deny Him) are those persons who know in their hearts that the Catholic Church is the true Church, but they still refuse to join her. The reason it is a crime is because if you deny His Church Luke 10:16, then you are also denying Him. Whoever denies Him before men by refusing to join His Church, He will also deny this person before His Father Matthew 10:33.

I can tell by reading your posts that you do not know that the Catholic Church is the true Church.

 

[Timothy_Piper]

Do you also have a problem with people who kiss photos of their loved ones, or salute the flag with their hand on their heart?

We do NOT light candles or bow down to or worship any statues. We might light a candle, but not for a statue! We may bow our head in front of a statue, but we are not bowing to the statue!!! A statue or an icon is like a picture of a friend. When you want to think about a friend, a husband, your kids, you look at their picture and then you think about them, and feel love for them. Is that also worship? I know that I can go through a whole day of work, so focused on my job that I don’t even give a thought to my own kids. A photo of my kids on my desk brings them to mind. Just a quick look and a pause, and I can think about my kids and feel how much I love them. The picture helps me do that. I post pictures of my weight loss goal on my fridge. Without it, I find it hard to imagine and more difficult to stay focused. A protestant believer bows his head and “imagines” God. Are you not also making an image for yourself? Do you light candles? Have you ever seen the Olympic torch? Are we worshipping the torch?

Tell it all to God; not me…I am not the one who will determine, but I can tell you the OT gives plenty of examples of worship of idols and relics and the results were, well very bad.

Your analogy of a picture of a family member or dog or picture of a piece of food is carnal, not spiritual. It is not i you need to convince, but if it is so obvious to the rest of the non-Catholic world, then how much more discerning is God?

 

[SHW]

Actually, the passage in John and the Lord’s Supper have nothing in common in the context of the Lord’s Supper, but since Scripture is consistent with itself we can look at John 6:63 and show that indeed He did tell everyone the manner in which He spoke.
6:63
"It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing; the words that I have spoken to you are spirit and are life. — Can Jesus make it or rephrase it for you to make it any clearer?

Then, Paul in 1 Co. 11, way after the Lord’s Supper, gives even more detail into the actual meaning, which of course is symbolic of the fleah and blood shed on the cross of Calvary.
23 For I received from the Lord that which I also delivered to you: that the Lord Jesus on the same night in which He was betrayed took bread; 24and when He had given thanks, He broke it and said, "Take, eat; this is My body which is broken for you; do this in remembrance of Me." 25In the same manner He also took the cup after supper, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in My blood. This do, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of Me.”

26For as often as you eat this bread and drink this cup, you proclaim the Lord’s death till He comes

What could be the reason you do not understand the plain reading of these?

I will address this in a later post.

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

Dokimas,

Let me share my approach to scriptures…

The Old Testament foretells the New and the New Testament fulfills the Old. To understand scriptures in context, one has to read the chapter a verse or passage is in. To understand the chapter in context, one has to read the book the chapter is in. To understand the book in context, one has to read the Testament it’s in. To understand the New Testament in context, one has to read the Old Testament.

Because this is such a long process, I feel a person can spend a lifetime reading scriptures and still not have a complete understanding of everything that is written by the end of their life. Especially average people who work, raise families, etc.

Again, this process leaves a lot of opportunities for interpretational differences between people. I believe Christ knew this and that’s one reason He built a Church, or an authority.

No where did Christ write anything, nor did He have anything specifically scribed. In fact, the only time Christ specifically used the term ‘scriptures’, he was admonishing someone’s interpretation, or correcting their interpretation.

**Mat 21:42 Jesus saith to them: Have you never read in the Scriptures: The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner? By the Lord this has been done; and it is wonderful in our eyes.

Mat 22:29 And Jesus answering, said to them: You err, not knowing the Scriptures nor the power of God.

Mat 26:54 How then shall the scriptures be fulfilled, that so it must be done?

Mar 12:24 And Jesus answering, saith to them: Do ye not therefore err, because you know not the scriptures nor the power of God?

Mar 14:49 I was daily with you in the temple teaching: and you did not lay hands on me. But that the scriptures may be fulfilled.

Joh 5:39 Search the scriptures: for you think in them to have life everlasting. And the same are they that give testimony of me.**
.
Christ only used the term “Church” twice, that I’m aware of. Once stating He was building His Church and the other time granting authority to that Church. The first time He said Church, He appointed it with a lot of authority.

**Mat 16:18 And I say to thee: That thou art Peter; and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.
Mat 16:19 And I will give to thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven. And whatsoever thou shalt bind upon earth, it shall be bound also in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth, it shall be loosed also in heaven.

Mat 18:17 And if he will not hear them: tell the church. And if he will not hear the church, let him be to thee as the heathen and publican.**

Christ said, “if he will not hear the Church…” He did not say, “if they will not understand the scriptures…” or “if they will not believe the scriptures…”

It seems from this demonstration, at least according to my understanding, Christ put more emphasis on His Church. At the very least, it shows scriptures are subject to being misunderstood.

When the US was founded, the founding fathers wrote a constitution. They did not send that out to every citizen and leave it open for private interpretation. They set up a governing power to interpret it. Why would God have done any less?

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

My response was to your point that the idea of theTtrinity and the perpetual virginity of Mary are the same with respect to Biblical treatment of these terms. My response was intended to show that the Bible gives us direct reasons to use the term ‘Trinity’ but that there are better Biblical reasons to conclude that Mary was not celebate her whole life so the term 'perpetually a virgin is not easily seen in the Bible as ‘Trinity’ is.

I understand what you’re saying.

 

[Timothy_Piper]

Hyperdulia

The special veneration due to the Blessed Virgin Mary.

Vatican II’s Dogmatic Constitution on the Church states: 66 “The various forms of piety towards the Mother of God, which the Church has approved within the limits of sound and orthodox doctrine, according to the dispositions and understanding of the faithful, ensure that while the mother is honored, the Son through whom all things have their being Col 1:15-16 and in whom it has pleased the Father that all fullness should dwell Col 1:19 is rightly known, loved and glorified and his commandments are observed.”

There are three levels of reverence that we in this life offer. Latria is reserved for God alone. Hyperdulia is reserved for the Blessed Virgin. Dulia is reserved for all the rest of the heavenly host.

Copyright © 1999-2010 Martin K Barrack. All rights reserved.

VENERATION:

1 : respect or awe inspired by the dignity, wisdom, dedication, or talent of a person

Worship: 1) Love unquestioningly and uncritically or to excess; venerate as an idol
2) The condition of being worthy; honour, distinction

Veneration: When worship is addressed only indirectly to God, that is, when its object is the veneration of martyrs, of angels, or of saints, it is a subordinate worship dependent on the first, and relative, in so far as it honours the creatures of God for their peculiar relations with Him; it is designated by theologians as the worship of dulia, a term denoting servitude, and implying, when used to signify our worship of distinguished servants of God, that their service to Him is their title to our veneration.

Your church uses the term interchangeably; matter of degree and direction of the affection.

I would be more concerned about the first two commandments and the final effect on my soul; but that is between each individual person and God; with God being the just judge.

 

[SHW]

The Holy Spirit’s presence in our souls is what gives our souls saving/sanctifying grace.

Ezekiel 33:12-17
“Therefore you, O son of man, say to the children of your people: ‘The righteousness of the righteous man shall not deliver him in the day of his transgression; as for the wickedness of the wicked, he shall not fall because of it in the day that he turns from his wickedness; nor shall the righteous be able to live because of his righteousness in the day that he sins.’ 13 When I say to the righteous that he shall surely live, but he trusts in his own righteousness and commits iniquity, none of his righteous works shall be remembered; but because of the iniquity that he has committed, he shall die. 14 Again, when I say to the wicked, ‘You shall surely die,’ if he turns from his sin and does what is lawful and right, 15 if the wicked restores the pledge, gives back what he has stolen, and walks in the statutes of life without committing iniquity, he shall surely live; he shall not die. 16 None of his sins which he has committed shall be remembered against him; he has done what is lawful and right; he shall surely live. 17 “Yet the children of your people say, ‘The way of the Lord is not fair.’ But it is their way which is not fair!

After a person commits mortal sin, why doesn’t God remember any of the righteous works that this person has done?

It is because the Holy Spirit is no longer living in this person’s soul and so He cannot recognize this person as His own. It is only the Holy Spirit who can give a person’s soul spiritual life and He gives a person spiritual life only if He is dwelling within. He is the only guarantee that a person may inherit eternal life after death. If He is not dwelling within this person at his death, then this person is destroyed by the consuming fire of God. The guarantee of His salvation (Holy Spirit) is no longer dwelling within this person’s soul.

John 6:63
It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life.

Our own flesh by itself is worthless. We cannot save ourselves. Only God’s grace is able to save us. The Holy Spirit gives us God’s grace.

So, at Baptism, the power of God (the Holy Spirit) seals us as God’s own and by doing this, God gives us His sanctifying grace. Jesus Christ made it possible for us to receive this grace because He atoned for Adam’s Sin by offering Himself as a blood sacrifice (death on the cross) to His Father.

1 Corinthians 1:4
I thank my God always concerning you for the grace of God which was given to you by Christ Jesus,

It is only the Holy Spirit dwelling within us who gives us our spiritual life and who saves us (justifies us) and keeps us saved because if and when He moves out because of mortal (deadly) sins, then we no longer have spiritual life and so we are no longer saved. He no longer knows us nor recognizes any of the good deeds that we did before we committed mortal sin.

This is why Jesus states:

Matthew 7:22-23
Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ 23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’

When the Holy Spirit is no longer living within them because of their mortal sins, then Jesus cannot recognize them as His own on Judgment Day and He will therefore have no memory of having ever known them because they are dead spiritually. Since they are dead spiritually, He can not see nor remember any of their good deeds that they did while they were in the state of sanctifying grace. They are thrown into the fire and burned because they are worthless. Their flesh profits nothing without the Holy Spirit dwelling within their flesh in their souls/hearts. They receive God’s vengeance because they have insulted His grace.

Hebrews 10:26-30
For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27 but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and fiery indignation which will devour the adversaries. 28 Anyone who has rejected Moses’ law dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29 Of how much worse punishment, do you suppose, will he be thought worthy who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, counted the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified a common thing, and insulted the Spirit of grace? 30 For we know Him who said, “Vengeance is Mine, I will repay,” says the Lord. And again, “The LORD will judge His people.”

1 Corinthians 3:16-18
Do you not know that you are the temple of God and that the Spirit of God dwells in you? 17 If anyone defiles the temple of God, God will destroy him. For the temple of God is holy, which temple you are.

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

Tell it all to God; not me…I am not the one who will determine, but I can tell you the OT gives plenty of examples of worship of idols and relics and the results were, well very bad.

Your analogy of a picture of a family member or dog or picture of a piece of food is carnal, not spiritual. It is not i you need to convince, but if it is so obvious to the rest of the non-Catholic world, then how much more discerning is God?

What about God’s instructions to build an ark for the covenant?

What about the temple Solomon built?

Both those examples come from the Old Testament.

Catholics do not worship idols or relics…Catholics ONLY worship God. The other things are no more than a picture of Jesus that hangs in most Christian’s homes. It is something to remind us of Him. Catholics have many reminders of Him.

Relics are not worshipped Some have even been written about in scriptures and not negatively.

**2Ki 13:20 And Eliseus died, and they buried him. And the rovers from Moab came into the land the same year.
2Ki 13:21 And some that were burying a man, saw the rovers, and cast the body into the sepulchre of Eliseus. And when it had touched the bones of Eliseus, the man came to life and stood upon his feet.

Act 5:15 Insomuch that they brought forth the sick into the streets and laid them on beds and couches, that, when Peter came, his shadow at the least might overshadow any of them and they might be delivered from their infirmities.
Act 5:16 And there came also together to Jerusalem a multitude out of the neighbouring cities, bringing sick persons and such as were troubled with unclean spirits: who were all healed.

Act 19:11 And God wrought by the hand of Paul more than common miracles.
Act 19:12 So that even there were brought from his body to the sick, handkerchiefs and aprons: and the diseases departed from them: and the wicked spirits went out of them.**

 

[Timothy_Piper]

Since you decided to abruptly end what you were quoting, I will finish the thought for you. Here is the rest of the paragraph that you referred to:

"There is here no confusion or danger of idolatry, for this worship is subordinate or dependent. The relic of the saint is venerated because of the link which unites it with the person who is adored or venerated ; while the statue or picture is regarded as having a conventional relation to a person who has a right to our homage – as being a symbol which reminds us of that person (see Vacant, Diet de théol. cath. , s.v. Adoration , and authors cited in bibliography; also ADORATION; IDOLATRY; IMAGES, DEVOTION TO THE BLESSED VIRGIN MARY)".

Again, that will rest between the individual and God, with God making the final decision. I have posted all of that above and more from more than one site. - FYI

 

[SHW]

But, what about those persons who commit venial sins (the sins that do not cause the death of spiritual life in the soul)?

The person who commits venial sins does not cause the Holy Spirit to move out of the person’s soul so he still has sanctifying grace and so he will still inherit eternal life when he dies.

However, these venial sins must be purged/burned from his soul in prison/purgatory before he can enter heaven.

1 Corinthians 3:12-15
Now if anyone builds on this foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw, 13 each one’s work will become clear; for the Day will declare it, because it will be revealed by fire; and the fire will test each one’s work, of what sort it is. 14 If anyone’s work which he has built on it endures, he will receive a reward. 15 If anyone’s work is burned, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.

Only holy persons may enter heaven. We must be perfect in order to enter heaven. Matthew 5:48

Luke 12:58-59
When you go with your adversary to the magistrate, make every effort along the way to settle with him, lest he drag you to the judge, the judge deliver you to the officer, and the officer** throw you into prison. 59 I tell you, you shall not depart from there till you have paid the very last mite.**”

It is best to atone for your own personal sins while you are still on earth. A person can do this by giving alms, praying, fasting, etc.

Acts 10:1, 3-4
There was a certain man in Caesarea called Cornelius, a centurion of what was called the Italian Regiment, 2 a devout man and one who feared God with all his household, who gave alms generously to the people, and prayed to God always. 3 So he said to him, “Your prayers and your alms have come up for a memorial before God.

James 1:27
Pure and undefiled religion before God and the Father is this: to visit orphans and widows in their trouble, and to keep oneself unspotted from the world.

 

[Dokimas]

Dokimas,

Let me share my approach to scriptures…

The Old Testament foretells the New and the New Testament fulfills the Old. To understand scriptures in context, one has to read the chapter a verse or passage is in. To understand the chapter in context, one has to read the book the chapter is in. To understand the book in context, one has to read the Testament it’s in. To understand the New Testament in context, one has to read the Old Testament. ** I’m with you pretty much.**

Because this is such a long process, I feel a person can spend a lifetime reading scriptures and still not have a complete understanding of everything that is written by the end of their life. Especially average people who work, raise families, etc. ** I’m not sure understandings of meanings are quite that complicated that’s why I said ‘pretty much’ in my initial response.**

Again, this process leaves a lot of opportunities for interpretational differences between people. I believe Christ knew this and that’s one reason He built a Church, or an authority.

No where did Christ write anything, nor did He have anything specifically scribed. In fact, the only time Christ specifically used the term ‘scriptures’, he was admonishing someone’s interpretation, or correcting their interpretation.

**Mat 21:42 Jesus saith to them: Have you never read in the Scriptures: The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner? By the Lord this has been done; and it is wonderful in our eyes.

Mat 22:29 And Jesus answering, said to them: You err, not knowing the Scriptures nor the power of God.

Mat 26:54 How then shall the scriptures be fulfilled, that so it must be done?

Mar 12:24 And Jesus answering, saith to them: Do ye not therefore err, because you know not the scriptures nor the power of God?

Mar 14:49 I was daily with you in the temple teaching: and you did not lay hands on me. But that the scriptures may be fulfilled.

Joh 5:39 Search the scriptures: for you think in them to have life everlasting. And the same are they that give testimony of me.**
.
Christ only used the term “Church” twice, that I’m aware of. Once stating He was building His Church and the other time granting authority to that Church. The first time He said Church, He appointed it with a lot of authority.

Mat 16:18 And I say to thee: That thou art Peter; and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. You and I disagree what the Rock is here.
Mat 16:19 And I will give to thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven. And whatsoever thou shalt bind upon earth, it shall be bound also in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth, it shall be loosed also in heaven. Sure would be nice if Jesus elaborated.

Mat 18:17 And if he will not hear them: tell the church. And if he will not hear the church, let him be to thee as the heathen and publican. Local church, not world religion church (IMO)

Christ said, “if he will not hear the Church…” He did not say, “if they will not understand the scriptures…” or “if they will not believe the scriptures…”

It seems from this demonstration, at least according to my understanding, Christ put more emphasis on His Church. At the very least, it shows scriptures are subject to being misunderstood.

When the US was founded, the founding fathers wrote a constitution. They did not send that out to every citizen and leave it open for private interpretation. They set up a governing power to interpret it. Why would God have done any less? **And look what those that came later have done to it!!!/**QUOTE]​

[SIGN]Here’s my problem: let’s say I’m the pope. I say I am the authority for the church. I have it on good authority that I am. The last pope said I have the authority and he was told by the previous and so on and so on. See, I go all the way back to Peter, the first pope and Jesus gave him the keys and they were passed down to me. See how it, at least could appear to be, self serving. Bottom line: you believe what you do because the CC tells you they are correct with what they teach and it has been taught this way for 2000 yrs. You (collectivey it would appear) always fall back on the CC.[/SIGN]

 

[Timothy_Piper]

Are you open to having your opinion challenged by the word of God?

onemoresoul.com/catalog/the-bible-and-birth-control-p193.html
au.video.yahoo.com/watch/451255/2518204

cantuar.blogspot.com/2008/03/bible-against-contraception.html

Let me make this real easy for everyone; this is a matter of conscience, the bible does not speak on the issue of contraceptive; except the kind that is murder, but not because of the contraception, but rather because of the murder.
For the Catholic who is taught it is a sin, then it is a sin because their conscience tels them it is. For any one else, it is not a sin because the conscience will either excuse or accuse. Paul talked about this (paraphrased) Everything that is not lawful is lawful, but everything that is lawful is not profitable.

And Paul also spoke of the conscience and for some it is a sin and for others it is not because of of Christian freedom. Some of the new converts felt it was a sin to eat meat given to idols; yet Paul said it was not, but if the person conscience said it was, then for him it is (paraphrased).

This OT of spilling the seed etc was a issue of disobedience to a specific law given to the nation of Israel. Be fruitful and multiply was because there were two people or 8 people, not 6 billion. blessed is the man who has a quiver full and barely able to function is the woman who bore the quiver…doesn’t really say that, just thought I would add some humor.

This is way off the topic; so I won’t comment nor will I judge the person who uses it with a clean conscience nor the person who can’t because of their conscience.

 

[Timothy_Piper]

Exactly, Timothy, exactly! :extrahappy:

The verse that says, “Don’t pray to saints” does NOT exist in Scripture. So it’s your extra-Biblical tradition that claims it’s wrong to pray to saints.

Where does the Bible tell us NOT to ask those eternally alive in Christ, in heaven, to pray for us? [SIGN]Nowhere! [/SIGN] Timothy has affirmed that it does not exist.

The Bible doesn’t tell us how to build an automobile, should we accept this as extra Biblical revelation and call it tradition handed down from God?

 

[Timothy_Piper]

Indeed.

Most Protestants have bought the Evil One’s lie that sex without a baby ever entering the picture is our *entitlement *as human beings.

Like many Catholic women who left your church during their fertile years because of disagreement, then come back later on. Just like most American Catholics believe the priests should be allowed to marry; might make it a better place for the kids.

 

[tweetymom]

QUOTE]

I would ask you to please remember where you are and the name of this forum and refrain from any more filthy comments of that nature.

And that was filthy because?
[/quote]

 

[Dokimas]

[SIGN]Originally Posted by PRmerger
Indeed.

Most Protestants have bought the **Evil One’s lie **that sex without a baby ever entering the picture is our entitlement as human beings. [/SIGN]​

1 Corinthians 7:1 ¶ Now concerning the things of which you wrote to me: It is good for a man not to touch a woman.
2 Nevertheless, because of sexual immorality, let each man have his own wife, and let each woman have her own husband.
3 Let the husband render to his wife the affection due her, and likewise also the wife to her husband.
4 The wife does not have authority over her own body, but the husband does. And likewise the husband does not have authority over his own body, but the wife does.
5 Do not deprive one another except with consent for a time, that you may give yourselves to fasting and prayer; and come together again so that Satan does not tempt you because of your lack of self-control.​

Is this about sexual relations between husband and wife?​

Is this about child bearing?​

Is this about the pleasure of the relationship? Note ‘affection due her’ in verse 3.​

Was this inspired by the Evil One?​

Should you be more careful what you say?