Why do Orthodox hate Catholics so much?

[mschrank]

I am a convert to Catholicism so I am not culturally familar with this stuff. Excuse me.

I noticed in my research into Orthodoxy that they seem to dislike Catholics in a big way. Most Catholics seem to believe the differences are minimal (in my opinion they are not minimal) and want reconciliation, but Orthodox do not. I can understand this much from the Orthodox, after all, reconciliation from the Catholic point of view pretty much means Orthodox have to become Catholic.

However, there is often kind of anti-Catholic animosity coming from Orthodox which rivals even that of evangelical Protestantism. What is the cause of this? Did Catholics and Orthodox fight religious wars with each other… what is it? It’s so emotional and thick that I would like to know where it comes from.

 

[CapIV]

misunderstandings.

 

[mgy100]

I am a convert to Catholicism so I am not culturally familar with this stuff. Excuse me.

I noticed in my research into Orthodoxy that they seem to dislike Catholics in a big way. Most Catholics seem to believe the differences are minimal (in my opinion they are not minimal) and want reconciliation, but Orthodox do not. I can understand this much from the Orthodox, after all, reconciliation from the Catholic point of view pretty much means Orthodox have to become Catholic.

However, there is often kind of anti-Catholic animosity coming from Orthodox which rivals even that of evangelical Protestantism. What is the cause of this? Did Catholics and Orthodox fight religious wars with each other… what is it? It’s so emotional and thick that I would like to know where it comes from.

Is their some sort of un-written law here on caf that states that every two-to-three weeks a thread must be started that slams the Orthodox and slanders them by saying that they dislike Catholics.

I’m Orthodox, please feel free to use the button and review my posts. Tell me if you see anything negative towards Catholics in them.
Before you go slamming Orthodox, you should do some research per the questions you raised in the post. There is a storied 2000 year history of complicated history between the Christian East and West.
If you do indeed go with questions about the Orthodox the Orthodox answers sometimes differ than the Catholic answers.
This is not because anyone has any malice towards Catholics.
It is simply because the Orthodox answers are indeed not the same answers as the Catholic answers.
For some reason this tends to upset some people in a very big way. They expect the answer to fit them or please them. When they receive answers that don’t agree with their position then they automatically slander the person that gave them that answer.

 

[mschrank]

I didn’t slam the Orthodox. Research includes posting on here.

Thanks

 

[Hesychios]

Glory to Jesus Christ!

Hello mschrank,

I presume that you are a convert from Protestantism, I congratulate you on a move into Apostolic Christianity.

I am a convert to Catholicism so I am not culturally familar with this stuff. Excuse me.

I noticed in my research into Orthodoxy that they seem to dislike Catholics in a big way. Most Catholics seem to believe the differences are minimal (in my opinion they are not minimal) and want reconciliation, but Orthodox do not. I can understand this much from the Orthodox, after all, reconciliation from the Catholic point of view pretty much means Orthodox have to become Catholic.

However, there is often kind of anti-Catholic animosity coming from Orthodox which rivals even that of evangelical Protestantism. What is the cause of this? Did Catholics and Orthodox fight religious wars with each other… what is it? It’s so emotional and thick that I would like to know where it comes from.

First, I think this is in the wrong forum. Orthodox discussion is directed to the NON-Catholic section.

If many Roman Catholics are puzzled and dismayed by the public stance of the Melkite church which is under submission to the Supreme Pontiff at Rome, how are they supposed to accept Holy Orthodoxy? (There, I have tied this thread into the Eastern Catholic forum.)

Second, I don’t know any Orthodox Christians who hate Roman Catholics. Even from your description of your own observations, I don’t see that as indicating some kind of hate. Many Orthodox have parents, siblings, cousins, neighbors, co-workers and even children who are Roman Catholics. We don’t have to agree about religion to love these people.

Thirdly, there are serious theological differences between our churches, there is no reason to pretend there is not. That is not to say that there were always this many serious differences, but there are now. Orthodox are not going to attribute these to misunderstanding. The Roman Catholic church knows exactly what the differences are, and has spent the better part of one thousand years trying to get the Orthodox to accept them.

Your point about making Orthodox become Catholic is true, from the Roman Catholic perspective. We would have to abandon Holy Orthodoxy in order to achieve unity according to the Roman Catholic definition.

From the Orthodox point of view, we Orthodox are already Catholic, have been continually, and your church has no right to judge us or claim we are not. Your church cannot expel us or drive us out. The CAF has decided that Orthodox are not to call themselves Catholic on this forum because of the confusion it brings to the participants here, and I abide. But the reality is the Orthodox communion has always been Catholic, and any Orthodox bishop will tell you so.

Many Years,
Michael

 

[ASimpleSinner]

I believe a good deal of animosity found is directly attributed to nationalism. If the nation that is your nation’s “traditional enemy” is largely Catholic, than all Catholics are considered bad.

Among the US Orthodox population there is a sizeable contingent of ex-Catholics. They seem to have an animosity to the Catholic Church that cradle-Orthodox just don’t have.

 

[catherineajt]

Glory to Jesus Christ!

Hello mschrank,

I presume that you are a convert from Protestantism, I congratulate you on a move into Apostolic Christianity.
First, I think this is in the wrong forum. Orthodox discussion is directed to the NON-Catholic section.

If many Roman Catholics are puzzled and dismayed by the public stance of the Melkite church which is under submission to the Supreme Pontiff at Rome, how are they supposed to accept Holy Orthodoxy? (There, I have tied this thread into the Eastern Catholic forum.)

Second, I don’t know any Orthodox Christians who hate Roman Catholics. Even from your description of your own observations, I don’t see that as indicating some kind of hate. Many Orthodox have parents, siblings, cousins, neighbors, co-workers and even children who are Roman Catholics. We don’t have to agree about religion to love these people.

Thirdly, there are serious theological differences between our churches, there is no reason to pretend there is not. That is not to say that there were always this many serious differences, but there are now. Orthodox are not going to attribute these to misunderstanding. The Roman Catholic church knows exactly what the differences are, and has spent the better part of one thousand years trying to get the Orthodox to accept them.

Your point about making Orthodox become Catholic is true, from the Roman Catholic perspective. We would have to abandon Holy Orthodoxy in order to achieve unity according to the Roman Catholic definition.

From the Orthodox point of view, we Orthodox are already Catholic, have been continually, and your church has no right to judge us or claim we are not. Your church cannot expel us or drive us out. The CAF has decided that Orthodox are not to call themselves Catholic on this forum because of the confusion it brings to the participants here, and I abide. But the reality is the Orthodox communion has always been Catholic, and any Orthodox bishop will tell you so.

Many Years,
Michael

You make many good points in your post. I would like to offer my own “real-life” (non-Internet) experience. A year ago my husband and I were dismayed by many things in our local Roman Catholic parishes. After doing some research, we attended an Orthodox church and found the Divine Liturgy to be a wonderful, prayerful experience and that our own beliefs were in fact in line with many of the teachings of the Orthodox faith. We became Orthodox that Easter.

My immediate impression was that, yes, the priest at this particular parish had a strong dislike of Roman Catholicism. He never once mentioned the Eastern Catholic churches (if we had known back then about those, we proably wouldn’t have bothered with the Orthodox church!). He made many snide and rude comments about people coming from the Roman church with a “crusader mentality”. When my husband, during our catechumenate period, mentioned he was looking forward to chrismation because he missed taking communion, the priest got very angry and said, “You’d BETTER NOT be going back to the Catholic church for communion!” He added that if we did, after converting, we would not be considered Orthodox any more. (For the record, we didn’t–we had stopped attending the Catholic church long before this incident! But he didn’t ask, he simply assumed.)

I see more of a rejection of the Catholic church from the Orthodox standpoint–if one is Orthodox, and takes communion at a Catholic church, it doesn’t “count” (again, this is what I was taught by the Orthodox priest) and also, one would have to do a major penance before taking the cup again at the Orthodox church. Whereas, the Catholic church says that Orthodox are welcome to take communion with them, and that members of the Catholic faith may attend an Orthodox church and fulfill their weekly obligation.

In contrast, the priest at the Byzantine-Ruthenian church where we attended last week said that we were welcome to take communion, and we were given no admonitions about converting and then coming back–it was simply a “Welcome. Glad to meet you,” mentality.

Again, this is just my own experience; I was saddened by the lack of understanding of history and the Catholic church in general. I agree that the innovations (the Immaculate Conception for one) that the Roman Catholic church has instituted are perplexing, at least to me. That is why I was so happy to find the Eastern Catholic church. Here I can worship the way I feel is most prayerful to me, and still be in communion with my family.

 

[catherineajt]

I believe a good deal of animosity found is directly attributed to nationalism. If the nation that is your nation’s “traditional enemy” is largely Catholic, than all Catholics are considered bad.

Among the US Orthodox population there is a sizeable contingent of ex-Catholics. They seem to have an animosity to the Catholic Church that cradle-Orthodox just don’t have.

Exactly so. The Orthodox priest at my former parish would often make comments about how the Orthodox hate Americans (I assume he doesn’t consider himself American, though he was born here) and was vocally dismayed at how many of his parishioners worked at the local military base. And yes, the ex-Catholics at our parish were very anti-Catholic. I was, myself, for a while. I think it’s a natural emotional response after rejecting something. Either you’re running away from something very bad that happened, and are naturally negative, or you feel you have to convince yourself that it was that bad.

 

[JMBNH]

It depends what you mean by Orthodox, I’d have thought the Armenian Apostolic Church (an Oriental Orthodox Church) would have more time for the Catholic Church than the Russian Orthodox Church (an Eastern Orthodox Church), though someone please correct me if I’m wrong on this.

A lot is due to political reasons, like the Crusaders (against the wishes of the Pope) attacking Constantinople. I do find though that Catholics try to play down the differences between the groups massively whereas the Eastern Orthodox try to exaggerate the differences, which for doctrine is arguably fair enough, but the way they criticise the Catholic Church for (mostly) not following the Byzantine Rite is ridiculous (they won’t admit to this one but it is actually the case, though this view is a lot softer than it once was, and if the Eastern and Oriental Orthodox Churches ever merge this will go almost completely, though the intolerance of the Latin Rite is unlikely to end any time soon). The anti-West sentiment got increased by a man called Photius in I think the 9th century, who managed to get the Byzantine Emperor to depose the rightful Patriarch of Constantinople and put him in his place, noly to be deposed by the Pope with the rightful Patriarch put back. He thus tried to stir up anti-Pope feelings to ry to be allowed to keep his position. He is the sourse of the filioque controversy.

Furthermore the Eastern Orthodox Church is VERY nationalistic with Patriarchs falling out with each other over their jurisdiction and the Macedonian Orthodox Church banned simply because Serbia claims to have jurisdiction there, even though they are very much Eastern Orthodox.

Though I don’t think it’s fair to say Orthodox hate Catholics, but the Eastern Orthodox are a lot less accepting of Catholics as fellow Christians than Catholics are of Eastern Orthodox and consider all the orders as invalid outside of the Eastern Orthodox Church. I don’t think this is the case with Oriental Orthodox, but I don’t know

 

[Heckesh]

I am a convert to Catholicism so I am not culturally familar with this stuff. Excuse me.

I noticed in my research into Orthodoxy that they seem to dislike Catholics in a big way. Most Catholics seem to believe the differences are minimal (in my opinion they are not minimal) and want reconciliation, but Orthodox do not. I can understand this much from the Orthodox, after all, reconciliation from the Catholic point of view pretty much means Orthodox have to become Catholic.

However, there is often kind of anti-Catholic animosity coming from Orthodox which rivals even that of evangelical Protestantism. What is the cause of this? Did Catholics and Orthodox fight religious wars with each other… what is it? It’s so emotional and thick that I would like to know where it comes from.

Largely because reconciliation will require the different Orthodox churches to be subsumed into the Catholic Church. Even with diligent efforts to protect traditions and history it still means an end to (and a realization of) a thousand years (or more) of error.

I suspect the Eastern patriarchs are well aware down deep that the Catholic Church would never be cleaved and distributed amongst the Orthodox state churches and that must drive some to act the way they do and that filters down.

I also think the different ethnicities play a huge part – some cultures produce a populous with fairly abrasive and defensive personalities – by our USA standards at least.

 

[ac_claire]

Please, no need to be defensive! I believe this was a sincere question. Possibly it could have been worder a little better.

The question has occurred to me, as well, when I first started learning about Orthodoxy. Specifically, when I came across the contrasting views that Catholic and EO churches have concerning the validity of eachothers sacraments.

 

[Heckesh]

Glory to Jesus Christ!

Hello mschrank,

I presume that you are a convert from Protestantism, I congratulate you on a move into Apostolic Christianity.
First, I think this is in the wrong forum. Orthodox discussion is directed to the NON-Catholic section.

If many Roman Catholics are puzzled and dismayed by the public stance of the Melkite church which is under submission to the Supreme Pontiff at Rome, how are they supposed to accept Holy Orthodoxy? (There, I have tied this thread into the Eastern Catholic forum.)

Second, I don’t know any Orthodox Christians who hate Roman Catholics. Even from your description of your own observations, I don’t see that as indicating some kind of hate. Many Orthodox have parents, siblings, cousins, neighbors, co-workers and even children who are Roman Catholics. We don’t have to agree about religion to love these people.

Thirdly, there are serious theological differences between our churches, there is no reason to pretend there is not. That is not to say that there were always this many serious differences, but there are now. Orthodox are not going to attribute these to misunderstanding. The Roman Catholic church knows exactly what the differences are, and has spent the better part of one thousand years trying to get the Orthodox to accept them.

Your point about making Orthodox become Catholic is true, from the Roman Catholic perspective. We would have to abandon Holy Orthodoxy in order to achieve unity according to the Roman Catholic definition.

From the Orthodox point of view, we Orthodox are already Catholic, have been continually, and your church has no right to judge us or claim we are not. Your church cannot expel us or drive us out. The CAF has decided that Orthodox are not to call themselves Catholic on this forum because of the confusion it brings to the participants here, and I abide. But the reality is the Orthodox communion has always been Catholic, and any Orthodox bishop will tell you so.

Many Years,
Michael

Are you aware that you use of “Roman Catholic Church” to define the entire Catholic Church (including the Eastern churches) is highly offensive to some Catholic Christians?

I am rather fascinated you would do that when you use the term “Orthodox” to describe both Oriental and Eastern Orthodoxy without giving any distinction to their differences or the differences between the different national churches that comprise each group.

 

[Allyson]

Are you aware that you use of “Roman Catholic Church” to define the entire Catholic Church (including the Eastern churches) is highly offensive to some Catholic Christians?

Good point, although I didn’t pick up on that until you mentioned it. I think however that the Roman* (I prefer the use of the word Latin) of the Catholic Church part is more likely to be perplexed than many members of the other Catholic Rites , which is why I first took Roman in the non-inclusive sense anyway, as being the intended sense.
R.

*The term Roman is ambiguous. It can mean a Church in communion with Rome OR, as it is used most of the time it refers to the Latin Rite of the Church that many people think is all there is. Many people are unaware of the other Western (Dominican [no longer said since Vatican II that I know of], Gallican and Ambrosian for a few examples), and also of Eastern Liturgical Rites with the corresponding sui juris jurisdictions that are in communion with Rome.

 

[Servus_Pio_XII]

You make many good points in your post. I would like to offer my own “real-life” (non-Internet) experience. A year ago my husband and I were dismayed by many things in our local Roman Catholic parishes. After doing some research, we attended an Orthodox church and found the Divine Liturgy to be a wonderful, prayerful experience and that our own beliefs were in fact in line with many of the teachings of the Orthodox faith. We became Orthodox that Easter.

I had a similar experience, tho at a Ruthenian Church (for the record, I did not change rites).

My immediate impression was that, yes, the priest at this particular parish had a strong dislike of Roman Catholicism. He never once mentioned the Eastern Catholic churches (if we had known back then about those, we proably wouldn’t have bothered with the Orthodox church!). He made many snide and rude comments about people coming from the Roman church with a “crusader mentality”. When my husband, during our catechumenate period, mentioned he was looking forward to chrismation because he missed taking communion, the priest got very angry and said, “You’d BETTER NOT be going back to the Catholic church for communion!” He added that if we did, after converting, we would not be considered Orthodox any more. (For the record, we didn’t–we had stopped attending the Catholic church long before this incident! But he didn’t ask, he simply assumed.)

Still, would you object to a Catholic priest giving the same instructions to, say, an Anglican? You are writing from a Catholic standpoint; try to assume the priest’s phronema.

Whilst he was gruff, he almost certainly knew of the lassitude with which the Catholic Church distributes communion (e.g. to Orthodox), and wanted no mistake to be made about the fact that the Orthodox Church did not have such leniency.

I see more of a rejection of the Catholic church from the Orthodox standpoint–if one is Orthodox, and takes communion at a Catholic church, it doesn’t “count” (again, this is what I was taught by the Orthodox priest) and also, one would have to do a major penance before taking the cup again at the Orthodox church. Whereas, the Catholic church says that Orthodox are welcome to take communion with them, and that members of the Catholic faith may attend an Orthodox church and fulfill their weekly obligation.

The second part is not true - Orthodox Liturgy does not fulfill a Catholic’s weekly obligation.

However, to the first point: the Orthodox would contend that communion is the end, solidification and confirmation of true Unity as a Church - a Unity which the Catholic and Orthodox Churches regrettably do not have.

The Eucharist is the very outward sign of unity; extending it to those whom the Orthodox would consider heterodox is simply unthinkable. The Eucharist is not oecumenal; it is of the Church for Her own benefit.

In contrast, the priest at the Byzantine-Ruthenian church where we attended last week said that we were welcome to take communion, and we were given no admonitions about converting and then coming back–it was simply a “Welcome. Glad to meet you,” mentality.

But, naturally, you had been both baptised and confirmed (chrismated) Catholic. Had you been Protestant, you too would have had to go through a process of conversion, much as you did at the Orthodox Church.

Again, this is just my own experience; I was saddened by the lack of understanding of history and the Catholic church in general. I agree that the innovations (the Immaculate Conception for one) that the Roman Catholic church has instituted are perplexing, at least to me. That is why I was so happy to find the Eastern Catholic church. Here I can worship the way I feel is most prayerful to me, and still be in communion with my family.

Be careful…the mantra of the “Orthodox in Union with Rome” portion of the East is “known but not emphasised”. Dogmatically, the Eastern Catholic Churches must remain homogenous with the Latin Church. Zum Beispiel, the Ukrainian Catholic Cathedral in the US is Immaculate Conception Cathedral.

 

[Alexios]

It is absolutely against the Tradition of the Latin Church to distribute Communion those those who are not Catholics, even the Orthodox.

The Orthodox and the traditional Catholic viewpoint is the right one: Communion is an outward sign of unity of faith, and should be reserved to those professing that Faith.

I don’t think the “new” Catholic practice can be rightly termed Catholic; it’s completely against Catholic tradition, and traditional Catholics realize that.

I highly doubt that an Eastern Orthodox would be communed at a traditional Catholic church, nor do I think they should be, just as Catholics shouldn’t be communed (or try to commune) in Orthodox churches.

Of course the state of affairs in the Middle East is such that Melkites and Orthodox frequently intercommune on both sides, with the tacit approval of the Churches. I would leave local traditions like that alone, but never officially encourage for it to be taken up elsewhere.

 

[Alexios]

Heckesh is right. It would perhaps be better to refer to what we commonly think of Orthodox as “Eastern Orthodox,” to distinguish them from the Oriental Orthodox, who have different traditions, are a different communion, and with whom the Eastern Orthodox haven’t been united for well over 1500 years. And to differentiate it from Orthodox Catholicism, in union with the Pope of Rome.

That’s at least why I use “Eastern Orthodox” most of the time.

 

[Diak]

However, there is often kind of anti-Catholic animosity coming from Orthodox which rivals even that of evangelical Protestantism. What is the cause of this? Did Catholics and Orthodox fight religious wars with each other… what is it? It’s so emotional and thick that I would like to know where it comes from.

It greatly depends on the particular jurisdiction/eparchy and even with the parish. I have found the most zealous anti-Catholics to be converts to Orthodoxy, and most of them in a particular jurisdiction that has prided itself on attracting converts from Protestant and Evangelical churches. It seems perhaps they do not loose much of the anti-papal baggage. I eventually pulled my kids out of an Orthodox coop school of this particular jurisdiction because we were clearly made to be “outsiders” as it was clear we were going to remain Greek Catholic and not become Orthodox of their particular jurisdiction. I walked out of several of this priest’s overtly anti-Catholic polemical sermons, and enough was enough.

On the other hand some of my best friends are Orthodox and Orthodox clergy. Because of joint persecution and familial ties we in the UGCC are often very close to the Ukrainian Orthodox and often celebrate services together such as Panakhydas and Molebens outside of the Divine Liturgy. Night and day, a completely different story. Usually our greatest differences are how we might sing a tone a bit differently or arguments over the holubtsi recipes.
FDRLB

 

[twf]

In practice the Eastern Orthodox often commune to Catholics (in the Middle East there is a lot of grass roots inter-communion between Greek Catholics and Greek Orthodox). I am not convinced that it is official Catholic policy to commune to non-Catholic Eastern Christians in ordinary circumstances, but only when their own clergy are unavailable. Am I wrong? The practices of individual Catholic clergy do not necessarily reflect the universal canons of the Church. (As in the case of individual EO clergy who commune to Catholics in the Near East).

 

[Hesychios]

Are you aware that you use of “Roman Catholic Church” to define the entire Catholic Church (including the Eastern churches) is highly offensive to some Catholic Christians?

Why do you assume I am using the term “Roman” Catholic to include or exclude Eastern Catholic churches? You don’t really know, do you?

I don’t know why you are offended, but it is not intentional.

As it is, I have lately been using the term as a synonym for Latin Catholic, distinguished from Eastern Catholics. I thought it was OK. Millions of Catholics of the Latin rite call themselves Roman Catholic without batting an eye. Try it out yourself, next Sunday after Mass ask aloud “how many of you people are calling yourselves Roman Catholics?” and see. You know I am right about this.

I know for a fact that you do not all think alike. As far as I am concerned the Latin Sui Iuris church, the Ruthenian Sui Iuris church and the Syro-Malabar Sui Iuris church are the parts of the church in communion with the Roman Pontiff. They should ALL be proud to call themselves Roman Catholic, but you make a big deal out of it.

But if you don’t like the term applied to you, the East would gladly take it back, because the Byzantines are Romans and only refrain from using the term for themselves because of the confusion in the public mind with your church. So Orthodox and Greek Catholics (oops, did I just offend someone?) are stuck with a 19th century invention if a name YOU apply to them to differentiate them from your church.

I am rather fascinated you would do that when you use the term “Orthodox” to describe both Oriental and Eastern Orthodoxy without giving any distinction to their differences or the differences between the different national churches that comprise each group.

I think that this is a tempest in a teapot, and you are just looking for an excuse to be offended.

Use whatever term you feel is appropriate to get your idea across. This is supposed to be a place to share information and you have your knickers in a twist.

Michael

 

[ASimpleSinner]

Be careful…the mantra of the “Orthodox in Union with Rome” portion of the East is “known but not emphasised”. Dogmatically, the Eastern Catholic Churches must remain homogenous with the Latin Church. Zum Beispiel, the Ukrainian Catholic Cathedral in the US is Immaculate Conception Cathedral.

We are peppering posts with German now? Toll!

Worth pointing out that no small amount of Ukrainian nationalism and contra-distinction against Russians is part of the history of Latinization. I would argue it has as much to do or more than being “forced” to Latinize by roving hoards of Jesuits.