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boomerang
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The earliest complete New Testament manuscripts in existence were *also *written “hundreds of years after the fact” in the fourth century. Even the earliest small fragments were not found to be any earlier than 150 AD. By your own criteria, the NT should be considered “made up history” as well.
The Epistle to the Romans was a snapshot of one, single moment in Paul’s life. What he alludes to in Romans is not a dissertation on the entire history of the Church in Rome.
I have provided historical evidence from many early church fathers that Peter founded the church at Rome. The ECF’s are just as credible as any other ancient source. Combined with the Catholic Church’s long-standing tradition that Peter started our Church, I have provided more than ample evidence that Peter founded the Catholic Church.
You have provided no credible evidence to back your personal opinion that the Church in Rome was started solely by “simple converts to Christianity from Jerusalem”
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Peter_J
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Alright. Boy, I guess I’ve been a little oblivious.
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PRmerger
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Well, to that end, I have no idea what you were objecting to regarding the rebellious children reference.Alright. Boy, I guess I’ve been a little oblivious.
And I am a little confused about why you stated you would be nodding in agreement with that comment, if you perceived it to be “snide” (albeit only “mildly” so).
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Peter_J
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Well, I guess my defense here is that I wasn’t aware of doing that. (Perhaps I’m more than a “little oblivious”. :eek: ) On a positive note, maybe I’ll bow out before I can do anything else to lower your estimate of me.
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NiceMarmot
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I did not post the original sentiment to be snide. But, the truth can sting sometimes, eh?
We (as a church) have been ham-stringed for a long time into back pedalling on the truth, apologizing for past mistakes over and over again, watering down the message to spare feelings, etc…
Triumphalism is not what I’m suggesting since it is sinful, but we should walk tall and confident in the truth!
Protestantism began as a rebellion and its fruit is rebellion. Lots of converts can attest to the amount of (for lack of a better term) growing up that took place, and is taking place, as the came home.
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benhur
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All capital O’s as per your post bringing them up, sorry I didn’t capitalize…Oh no, are the Lutherans “narrow” with intercommunion also ?It’s hard to respond to this post, because I can’t tell whether you understand the difference between the words “orthodox” and “Orthodox” (or whether you realize that link was from a Lutheran source).
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Peter_J
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Hi NiceMarmot,
It seem then that we agree on a lot – specifically, telling the truth and not being triumphalistic. Which is not to say, of course, that I no longer believe that saying the other side needs to grow up don’t help Catholic-protestant relations. (Granted they have said much worse things about us, but I won’t go into that. 
)
It seem then that we agree on a lot – specifically, telling the truth and not being triumphalistic. Which is not to say, of course, that I no longer believe that saying the other side needs to grow up don’t help Catholic-protestant relations.
(Granted they have said much worse things about us, but I won’t go into that. )
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Peter_J
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Hamstringed by some, but not by all. For example, when liberals were complaining about Dominus Iesus, many of the most respectable non-Catholic Christians were applauding it for its integrity.
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benhur
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Michael J. Walsh and W. H. Frend are two historians. Do you really think Peter and Paul went as missionaries/apostles to Rome and began the church ? Like was done in Antioch and other cities ? I thought it was just biblical sense that they did not but will concede some say otherwise based on tradition.
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House_Harkonnen
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False. Or a half truth at best. The earliest manuscripts of all the books in the NT were written by AD 95. Within 60 or so years of Christ.
No. That is when they were compiled. They were written much earlier than that. Catholic historians acknowledge that.
The ECFS say all sorts of things that were false. They were fallible men just like everyone else. But no, even Catholic scholars know that Peter didn’t “found” the church in Rome.
What would you consider credible evidence? Would some Catholic historians suffice?
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NiceMarmot
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Indeed.Hi NiceMarmot,
It seem then that we agree on a lot – specifically, telling the truth and not being triumphalistic. Which is not to say, of course, that I no longer believe that saying the other side needs to grow up don’t help Catholic-protestant relations.
My first post on the topic was an analogy. Not suggesting that Prots are immature.
But, you got me thinking and a new thread topic is in order…
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Peter_J
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I should have given you this one too, from the same source:
m.youtube.com/watch?v=0Nx8QqiADyw
(even though it’s been posted here before
).
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boomerang
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False. Or a half truth at best. The earliest manuscripts of all the books in the NT were written by AD 95. Within 60 or so years of Christ.
No. That is when they were compiled. They were written much earlier than that. Catholic historians acknowledge that.
**You misunderstand me. There are no NT manuscripts that are complete that date earlier than about 350 AD. There are small fragments of some books of the NT that date to 150 AD, no earlier. *Anything earlier than that does not exist. *** There is no “original” NT manuscript that dates to the first century. Those disappeared long ago. No one knows what they looked like, or exactly what they said. All we have are copies of copies of copies.
I’m not talking about the original writings by the apostles, or their disciples. Those would date to the first century, IF we had them. We don’t have them. All we have are copies transcribed centuries later by fallible people. So if your argument is that the writings of the early church fathers are too late to be believed, then you must realize that our New Testament falls into that same category. We have no idea what the original NT said. It might have said that Jesus and Mary Magdalene were married and had a litter of kids for all we know. We assume it was transcribed correctly, but without the originals, we can never know for sure. THAT’S WHY THE TRADITION OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH IS SO IMPORTANT. (I’m not yelling) The Tradition tells us that the NT was transcribed correctly. The Church vouches for it, you might say.
The ECFS say all sorts of things that were false. They were fallible men just like everyone else. But no, even Catholic scholars know that Peter didn’t “found” the church in Rome.
Sometimes some of them did say heretical things, just like some “historians” do today. But many of them were also scholars who told the truth as it was handed down to them.
What would you consider credible evidence? Would some Catholic historians suffice?
**I would like to hear what Catholic historians have to say, as long as they are in good standing with the Church. The early church fathers hold a lot of weight because they were much closer in time (and geography) to the beginnings of Christianity than modern historians. And because they lived during persecutions, they were really fanatical about maintaining tradition and orthodoxy. Nowadays, anyone with an internet connection can claim to be an historian. Take me, for example.Peace! **
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Kosta
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I don’t pretend to know your intent, but I’m sorry to say that to me this sounds like a bit of a loaded question. There are hateful people in every religion regardless of its tenets. People are capable of hate. We choose to hate; even Catholics choose to hate sometimes when they choose sin over God’s will. It’s a sad thing.
If I may, sometimes I get the feeling that Catholics online get the feeling that anyone that disagrees with their theology hates the Catholic Church. That is most definitely not the case. If anything, to me it seems like a case of some people having a thing skin. I disagree with the Catholic Church and side with own Church ten times out of ten when it comes to inter-Church debates but that doesn’t make me some sort of fire-breathing Catholicophobe. Far from it, in fact. If anything in my own life experiences, it’s been Catholics who have been rude and judgemental more so than my own kind. But I’m at least old enough to realize that my narrow life-experiences do not translate to bigger trends. Maybe if other people realized that, we wouldn’t need to have this discussion about other groups.
I have to say, though, I see where you’re coming from. I too share a frustration with some Protestant groups and their haughty triumphantalism. My blood boils when I read about missionary groups from the First Antioch Baptist Love in Jesus Christ Amen Church go to Greece to preach Christianity to the Natives, disregarding our own ancient Church as like some off-branch of satanism and as if Greeks have never heard the Bible before. I just want to scream out “Hey newsflash, buddy: it was my Church that compiled the Bible. Some of our bishops have vestments older than your ‘Church’—don’t play this game.” Likewise, I’m Facebook friends with an Anglican/Episcopalian who rejoiced at England’s decision to allow female bishops and joked that the Catholic Church is 500 years behind, “as always.” I wanted to say something here as well, but I didn’t, because what good would it do? All we can do is pray for them, and for ourselves.
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mayogirl25
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Bottom line is they are afraid of us. I think they wish to have what we have and they just don’t have what we have.
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House_Harkonnen
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I have never met a Protestant who was “afraid” of the RC. Do you have any evidence of that claim?
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mayogirl25
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No-one I can stand here in front of you right now of course. But I have heard stories from non-Catholic co-workers who actually still believe we Catholics sacrifice babies on the altar regularly. There are still a lot of ignorant people around. In my neck of the woods mostly Baptists. Actually, the baby sacrificing stories were from some Presbyterian friends. Of course, they are not totally ignorant but they were hesitant to attend my brothers funeral a few years ago. Oy Vey!
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House_Harkonnen
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Sacrificing babies? I think these folks were pulling your leg.
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mayogirl25
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I know it is hard to believe but actually I am telling the truth. There are still some really weird tales in circulation about the Catholic religion today. I live close to a big city on the East Coast and what I said is true. Some still fear Catholic religion and believe stories they were told growing up (which of course were never true to begin with) but they do exist still today.
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