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Ignatius
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“but it is the common belief”, as in 632 does not constitute a Dogmatic teaching. That’s what you’ve been ranting about? Puleeeez!
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slh3016
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You might have a point, if what you say is actually true, BUT we’re not just talking about Hippolytus because the following “early church fathers” ALSO speak of infant baptism:
Origen
Cyprian of Carthage
Gregory of Nazianz
John Chrystostom
Augustine
and so on. It’s not just that ONE early church leader/father spoke of it in their writings, it’s the fact that SEVERAL speak of it and therefore a PATTERN can be ascertained in what the early church taught and practiced. Obviously, infant baptism is one of those.
Also, the following quote from another thread totally helped me put this same issue to rest when I was contemplating my children being baptized back in January.
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JimmyG88
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‘It is a common belief they go SOMEHERE SIMILAR TO LIMBO’ So the COMMON BELIEF is that there is some where SIMILAR TO LIMBO.“but it is the common belief”, as in 632 does not constitute a Dogmatic teaching. That’s what you’ve been ranting about? Puleeeez!
QED.
What’s your issue. Kindly don’t sneer at me. It is hardly my fault that you have an inability to examine the meaning of texts.
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Michael_Francis
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http://i66.photobucket.com/albums/h244/corona_stellarum/Smilies/nun_slapping_ruler_hg_clr-1.gif
Last warning’
Drop the discussion of Limbo and get back on topic or this thread will be closed.
Last warning’
Drop the discussion of Limbo and get back on topic or this thread will be closed.
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JimmyG88
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Sorry. I haven’t anything to add on Limbo. But it is connected with the original topic. I think there is loads of scope for discussion which might appear ‘off piste’ such as the date of Christmas, Mithraic practices loads of stuff
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carmenp1
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slh3016
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Carmen, you see, you now have a problem with your argument. First, you argue that baptism isn’t necessary for salvation (a typical Baptist argument) because you claim that nothing is required on our part. Well, your quote above proves that you really believe otherwise. There is something required: a verbal confession.
But, this argument precludes infants and anyone not able to communicate verbally *IF YOU BELIEVE THAT EVERY WORD IN THE BIBLE MUST BE TAKEN AT FACE VALUE AND IS MUTUALLY EXCLUSIVE. * Going with Romans 10:9 at face value, there’s no wiggle room for infants or for people who are mute and can’t talk. Sit and think about that for a moment.
Then, hop over to this site (which is a LUTHERAN site) and read their take on it. I came across this when researching baptism for my children.
Isolating a text in support of one doctrine is never a good idea. Paul was told by Annanias in Acts 22:16 to, “And now, what are you waiting for? Get up, be baptized, and wash your sins away, calling on His name.”
Would Paul have preached a different mode of salvation than the one he’d received? Annanias seems to indicate to Paul that baptism and calling on His name were the mode of salvation and that they either happened in that exact order or happened concurrently, but were not mutually exclusive.
Carmen, are you familiar with typology where one OT event prefigures a very literal NT event and reality?
Even my NIV study Bible tells me that this passage you quoted above is typology. Moses and the Israelites were saved through water just as we are saved through water (i.e., baptism) today. Further, the literal food and rock quoted in that passage refer back to the manna and the rock in Exodus and Numbers, but both prefigure the spiritual sustenance God continually provides his people in the Eucharist.
**Prove it. ** Entire households were baptized according to the Scriptures and Church Fathers write of baptizing infants PRIOR TO CONSTANTINE. The word “households” does not preclude infants and you cannot prove otherwise. Constantine did not change Christianity to the state religion in the Edict of Milan, he simply ended the persecution of Christians, but NEVER made it the state religion. Get your facts straight before you spew such inaccuracies and misrepresentations.
Why? Why does it matter if baptism doesn’t actually DO anything? Why even bother with baptism if it doesn’t *actually *do something for our soul?
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Mousey
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You take one verse and ignore the others.
Ignored is Peter who says that baptism now saves you no
Ignored is that baptism has replaced circumcision which was performed on children.
Ignored I Peter saying to be saved you must repent and be BAPTIZED.
Obviously you are not reading the other post. It was pointed out to you that babies were baptized WAY before Constantine. You promote a myth. Post 178 you should reread
What you also ignore is that scripture states that whole families were baptized together no exception is mentioned.
I also have noted you promote that myth that early Christians were always immersed. That I not true either.
3000! Where do you think there was enough water to immerse that many people.
The Didache shows how baptism was done by early Christians
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carmenp1
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I am going by my own experience and many others that I have seen converted after following the instructions given in Romans. Confess with your mouth etc.
I got saved. I was not the same old Carmen. I had new desires. Good desires. I couldn’t live my life as I had before. Going out with my husband. Drinking, flirting and dancing provokatively with other men.
I never wanted children. I looked after them but I didn’t have that nurturing, loving heart. I didn’t really hug them. My mother never hugged me. But after I got saved, God took out that heart of stone and gave me a new heart. I loved and enjoyed being with my children. I hugged them. Thanked God for them.
God changed me in so many ways to be more like Him.
Are you saved?
Have you got that defining moment when you know God changed and converted you?
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Mousey
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You do not address the Scripture that contradicts your misinterpretation of Scripture.
2 Timothy 4:7
I have fought the good fight, I have finished the course, I have kept the faith
Paul said this because he new that you weren’t saved until you have finished the race, that is until you die.
Then Jesus will say either ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father. Inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. For I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, a stranger and you welcomed me,
naked and you clothed me, ill and you cared for me, in prison and you visited me.’
or
‘Depart from me, you accursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.
For I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink,
a stranger and you gave me no welcome, naked and you gave me no clothing, ill and in prison, and you did not care for me.’
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Dorothy
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Carmen,
No one is saying that you do not have a relationship with the Lord and that He has done great things for you as you have shared. God honors faith.
As Catholics, we do believe, however, that the Catholic Church contains the fullness of truth of what our Lord Jesus Christ taught, and many here would like to correct you about what you think is true about the Catholic Church and really isn’t.
Jesus prayed that all be one!
Peace and all good things to you,
Dorothy
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slh3016
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Carmen1, yes, if one believes that a single “moment” converts you, then, yes, I had that when I was 16 years old.
But, in the last 20 years, I have also come to see that salvation is not a one-time event. It’s not simply “asking Jesus into your heart”, it is abiding with Him in every moment of every day. I don’t believe OSAS like most Baptists and never did. I also have come to see that an emotional experience doesn’t necessarily equate to salvation, either. I’ve seen MANY people go forward on an altar call, being full of the Spirit for a while, and then drift back into their old ways over time. Following Christ is taking up our cross DAILY and choosing to follow Him. We can always turn our backs on the free gift of salvation given to us and choose the world and our selfish desires over Him, the creator and sustainer of eternal life. It’s a choice, daily, and many times I fail miserably.
I love the saying that I saw on here once: “I was saved, I am being saved, and I hope to be saved in the end.”
I am very thankful for your conversion story. It truly shows the power of God’s grace and love. However, what I and others have been trying to say is that you cannot project your experience onto the entire world. Christ has given commands on how to attain salvation that are the normative means, but that doesn’t necessarily mean that every person will have that one time “AHA!” moment. I was not raised Christian and I had a moment when I was 16 at a revival with a friend (although I’d always believed in Jesus from a young age); my husband, however, was raised in a Christian home from birth and didn’t have one of those experiences. He simply got baptized when he was 12 or 13, as his Church of Christ tradition (like the Catholic Church) taught was necessary for salvation.
It is erroneous and wrong for people to assert that one must be overcome with emotion/“the Spirit” for salvation to have occurred. Yes, for an adult convert, I would hope that a changed life would be the fruits of a converted heart because in James 2:17 says that “faith without works in dead.”
As a young, uninformed, and impressionable child, I had a friend tell me what her particular tradition taught about salvation in that one had to BEG God for salvation (i.e., to be “elected”) and that almost like a lightning bold, you’d KNOW you’d finally been saved at a particular moment because of a so-called feeling that you’d have. From that time on, I begged GOD daily to save me and I ended up with a very warped notion of who God is when I never had that emotion from the time I was 11 years old until I was 16 years old.
Blessings to you on your walk with Christ.
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SjMelnychuk
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Actually in Pagan religion there are both gods and goddesses all are equally worshipped. Because Pagan religions don’t have just one god they have multiple. Pending on which Pagan sect however, each sect will emphasize different goddesses and gods, some may emphasize the supreme goddes above the masculine gods. It all depends on which pagan sect one follows. So, you fail to even understand Pagan religion and you fail to understand the Catholic Faith. Is it no wonder why many falsely believe that Catholics have Pagan roots!
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SjMelnychuk
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Apparently you even fail to recognize that Buddhism is a Philosophy not a religion based upon a Theistic faith. In fact, no true Buddhist will believe in any form of deity. So how can you say that Buddhists had their deities? You’re not only misinformed about Paganism, you are also misinformed about Buddhism. And we know for certain you are misinformed about the Catholic faith. I had to shake my head though when you mentioned Buddhists had their deities when any knowledgeable Buddhist are pretty much Atheistic. Some who claim to be Buddhists however, may be more truthfully Agnostic.
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SjMelnychuk
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So by your statement you believe that Catholics believe Mary is more compassionate than Jesus?
You also believe that Catholics worship Mary?
Show us anything that even suggests that Catholics believe Mary is “MORE” compassionate than Jesus? And show us what makes you believe Catholics worship Mary?
Mary having compassion and Jesus having compassion… Can’t both Mary and Jesus have compassion for us?
Here’s a video (link provided below) to explain not only Mary’s need for a Saviour but also what it means for Mary to have been Immaculately Conceived.
youtube.com/watch?v=bqeUpvMXLk8
OK … so now let us take a look at Jesus, His redemptive work on the Cross, and tie this in with the OT, the Old Covenant and the New Covenant, the Arc of the Covenant and the Covenant, the Holy of Holies.
Luke 22:20 - Jesus and his redemptive work on the Cross is referred to as the new covenant.
When you study the bible it is often said that if one wishes to have an understanding of the NT they must also have an understanding of the OT because the OT foreshadows the NT.
Various Sacred Scriptures in the OT foreshadows Jesus many times through the stories of people. King David is a good example of this. He foreshadows the suffering of Jesus. The book of Isaiah foreshadows the suffering of Jesus. The proper theological term would be Biblical Typology. What is Biblical Typology?
Biblical typology
Typology is a method of biblical interpretation whereby an element found in the Old Testament is seen to prefigure one found in the New Testament. The initial one is called the type and the fulfillment is designated the antitype. Either type or antitype may be a person, thing, or event, but often the type is messianic and frequently related to the idea of salvation. The use of Biblical typology enjoyed greater popularity in previous centuries, although even now it is by no means ignored as a hermeneutic.
Typological interpretation is specifically the interpretation of the Old Testament based on the fundamental theological unity of the two Testaments whereby something in the Old shadows, prefigures, adumbrates something in the New. Hence, what is interpreted in the Old is not foreign or peculiar or hidden, but arises naturally out of the text due to the relationship of the two Testaments.
So seeing the OT as foreshadowing the NT is not a new concept but rather an old concept. This has been eroded by many Protestant Churches who tend to neglect the OT in favor of the NT because the OT is law and the NT is grace. But even in the OT we see grace, mercy, we see the foreshadowing of who Jesus is and his redemptive work on the Cross. So to ignore or to neglect the OT is to be rather limited in our hermeneutics and exegetical studies of Sacred Scripture. My former Pentecostal Bible College Instructor used to always harp on us … “Context, Context, Context … Context is everything.” You take one thing out of Context and you present something that is hermeneutically and exegetically inaccurate. So if you desire a greater context for the NT we cannot dismiss the OT because the OT provides greater context for the NT.
When Jesus said His blood is the cup of the New Covenant … He compares the Old Covenant and the New Covenant. One being there was a former covenant but now there is a new covenant.
The Old Covenant was carried by the arc of the covenant. The arc of the covenant was placed in the holy of holies. In OT times, only the high priest would enter the holy of holies to bring the annual atoning sacrifice - the lamb. Who is Jesus? The Lamb of God.
When the high priest would make the sacrifice they would tie a rope around the waist or the feet of the high priest. The rope would have bells on them. Reason? If the bells stopped that would mean the high priest died so they would pull on the rope to drag the priest out of the holy of holies where the arc of the covenant was which “HOUSED” the Old Covenant.
When Jesus died on the Cross the veil was torn in two.
Before Jesus died on the Cross the veil was not torn in two just yet.
Jesus, both God and man. Jesus is fully God and fully man. Therefore when Mary conceived Jesus in her womb she conceived God! Becoming the Mother of God! At no time was Jesus ever not fully God and at no time was Jesus ever not fully man. The womb of Mary became what “HOUSED” God if Jesus is God fully God and always God Mary conceived God in her womb and carried God within her womb. This predates the veil being torn in two. Therefore Mary became the Arc of the New Covenant because she carried the New Covenant within her womb, not only carried the New Covenant from within her womb but conceived the New Covenant within her womb. If a high priest would die if there were sin in their heart when offering the annual sacrificial lamb, doesn’t it then make sense that before the veil was torn that Mary would have to be full of Grace and without sin? Her womb not only became the arc of the New Covenant but her womb became the holy of holies where the presence of resided. JESUS … He carried in Him the fullness of God so if you were in His Presence you in the very presence of God! And so within Mary’s womb she carried the very presence of God!
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SjMelnychuk
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Why pray to Mary and the Saints?
youtube.com/watch?v=V6OwlfNwc9A
Revelations Chapter 5:8 - Elders receiving the prayers of the Saints then bringing to God
Revelations Chapter 8:4 - Angels receiving the prayers of the Saints then bringing to God
Acts 8:29-31
And the Spirit said to Philip, “Go over and join this chariot.” So Philip ran to him and heard him reading Isaiah the prophet and asked, “Do you understand what you are reading?” And he said, “How can I, unless someone guides me?” And he invited Philip to come up and sit with him.
All of these puts into question how we know that what we read in Sacred Scripture that we understand accurately. Is our theology accurate? Have we done an accurate enough of an exegetical study on what we’ve read? What how do we know we’ve understand and have interpreted Sacripture right?
Why do people believe that the Catholic faith has pagan roots?
I’ve established in a previous comment that such people who believe this don’t even have an accurate knowledge of pagan beliefs let alone what Catholics believe.
youtube.com/watch?v=V6OwlfNwc9A
Revelations Chapter 5:8 - Elders receiving the prayers of the Saints then bringing to God
Revelations Chapter 8:4 - Angels receiving the prayers of the Saints then bringing to God
How do you know, that when reading the bible you have understood what you have read and therefore have interpreted what you have read accurately?
Acts 8:29-31
And the Spirit said to Philip, “Go over and join this chariot.” So Philip ran to him and heard him reading Isaiah the prophet and asked, “Do you understand what you are reading?” And he said, “How can I, unless someone guides me?” And he invited Philip to come up and sit with him.
All of these puts into question how we know that what we read in Sacred Scripture that we understand accurately. Is our theology accurate? Have we done an accurate enough of an exegetical study on what we’ve read? What how do we know we’ve understand and have interpreted Sacripture right?
Why do people believe that the Catholic faith has pagan roots?
I’ve established in a previous comment that such people who believe this don’t even have an accurate knowledge of pagan beliefs let alone what Catholics believe.
What makes the author of Babylon Mystery Religion an authoritative voice in what is taught within the Catholic Church?
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SjMelnychuk
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AND TO ADD …
Mary’s role in our redemption?
As she nurtured the infant Jesus she too nurtured the infact Church… she becomes our Mother. As Jesus became the 2nd Adam, Mary became the 2nd Eve. But She is more than just 2nd Eve, she is Queen Mother. This also is a picture of Royal Roles within a Kingdom. If we understand Royal Roles within a Monarch Kingdom we then will have a better understanding of Mary’s role as Queen Mother.
youtube.com/watch?v=mV01zlBdj24
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Church_Militant
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How did the Jewish parents speak for their children when they were presented and circumcised at the command of God then?
"For by the blood of Christ we are set free, that is, our sins are forgiven. How great is the grace of God"And every faithful Catholic will say Amen and Alleluia to what that verse says…
“all were baptised into Moses in the cloud and in the sea, all ate the same spiritual food, (Christ the Word of God) and all drank the same spiritual drink. For they drank of that spiritual ROCK that followed them, and THAT ROCK WAS CHRIST.”And every faithful Catholic will say Amen and Alleluia to what that verse says…
This is completely wrong and I can prove it.
THE PAGANIZATION OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH UNDER CONSTANTINE
which will refute the historical errors that you have been fed.
And then, as you need to carefully read my research article called The Case For Infant Baptism and pay special attention to the historical record from The Martyrdom of Polycarp in which one of the ECF himself states in public testimony that he was baptized as a baby, and since he was a close friend and disciple of St. John the evangelist many scholars believe that he may have been baptized by St. John himself.
Really? So then, based upon this statement of yours, you do not believe that any of us can know what God’s will for us aside from the Bible? That makes no sense at all since there are a great many things today that are not addressed in any way in the Bible and (according to your comments) we cannot know what God thinks of them if they are not addressed in scripture. i’'m sorry but that;s an http://i66.photobucket.com/albums/h244/corona_stellarum/Smilies/emo-epicfail.png
So now you’re here to preach to us? Sorry, but in so doing you have opened yourself up to counter-evangelism. God’s Love for You
Carmen try to stay on topic Carmen, but, though we appreciate your concern for our souls, please avoid trying to proselytize us away from our Catholic faith, which is the original, New Testament, "full gospel, Christianity, that Our Blessed Lord Jesus Christ founded while he was here.2,000 years ago. You may not understand it or even agree, but you’ll need to take that up with Jesus Himself.
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SjMelnychuk
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try to stay on topic Carmen, but, though we appreciate your concern for our souls, please avoid trying to proselytize us away from our Catholic faith, which is the original, New Testament, "full gospel, Christianity, that Our Blessed Lord Jesus Christ founded while he was here.2,000 years ago. You may not understand it or even agree, but you’ll need to take that up with Jesus Himself.
Apparently Carmen thinks we don’t know the full Gospel and need to be told of who this Jesus is ??
I think Carmen, you really have to get educated on what the Catholic Faith is and what the Catholic Faith is not because in doing so it shows a real ignorance. But of course, people who tend to think Catholicism began with Constantine and has Pagan roots are truly ignorant of the Catholic Faith. Obviously.
And of course, Carmen, if you keep telling us the “4 Spiritual Laws” we’ll keep trying to fill in the massive gap you’ve left behind
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