Why do people leave the Catholic Church?

[SpiritMeadow]

Let me quote this to you, then you can argue all you want.

l corinthians 7:32 The unmarried man give his mind to the Lords affairs and to how he can please the Lord, but THE
man who is married gives his mind to the affairs of this world and to how he can please his wife, and he is DIVIDED IN MIND.

Now those are the words of our Lord. Who is a man going to serve Man or God. The Lord said if hes serves both he is divided in mind. Did he not? Now what does that say to you? If a husband is married is he not serving his wife also. But if a Man is not married is he not just serving our Lord? You tell Me?

You cannot read isolated verses without understanding the entire context of what Paul is saying here. First he believed that Christ’s return was immenent. He urged those who were single to remain so, not because it was better overall, but because it was better at this moment. Everyone must be in preparation for Christ’s return.

Paul was attempted to explain that the minds of the Corinthians must be away from worldly issues of marriage and such, and turned toward preparing for God. That is why he counsels that people should make no changes in their lives. Some Corinthians believed that they should all become celibate. Paul tells them no, marriage is a responsibility wherein both spouses owe each other, and one party cannot withhold sex from the other.

This was a specific dispute, Paul is not giving a general discourse on family life.

One need only look to his close association with Aquila and Prisca, a married couple whom he worked with in spreading the message of Jesus.

He makes it clear that singleness is a special gift of God, not one all or even most are to seek.

 

[Hesychios]

We’re having quite a debate over statues - eg are they graven images or not - aren’t we?

I wonder if there are couple factors in this debate that we haven’t yet considered that can influence people’s view on the images…

This came to mind when I saw the images that have been posted as part of our debate. I find them beautiful as art but would find them very distracting in a church setting. So I I wonder if the plainness of some churches is a result of this preference rather than theology.

Also do some people see more in these images than others - seeing them as representative rather than images alone. Again this would lead to a different view of them.

I agree with your observation.

Have you ever seen the traditional Cistercian style of decoration and design? Striking simplicity, and as bare as a Quaker Meeting hall with only the “exsisto silens” painted on the wall.

Beautiful in it’s own way and very conducive to meditation on the divine. It too has it’s place.



http://bp1.blogger.com/_srTiIzq2H7g/SFKOHhrTteI/AAAAAAAAAfM/bFFUIyflrZ0/s400/04.jpg
This obviously modern construction is firmly in the Cistercian tradition from the medieval period. This is not some kind of post-Vatican II abuse!
Some Cistercian monasteries had drifted away from it in the intervening centuries but it is integral to the original spirituality of this order.
Unfortunately, the issue came up as idolotry, not one of style. So it has to be dealt with as a theological concern.

 

[Hisalone]

Okay - I’ll play your game.

Here are the questions you haven’t been able to answer - in plain black and white so there are no excuses:

My question:
“What is your definition of God’s ONE Church?”

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Your comment:
“Gods Assembly or Gods Congregation is made up of all born again believers.”

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My follow-up question:
“That’s not what Scripture says. Where did you get this from?”

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Unanswered Questions:
*What makes the Catholic Church a Church of compromise? *
What makes it bogus?
**

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Your comment:
It is my assertion that the statues placed in Catholic Churchs qualify as graven images.

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My question:
What about the pictures in your wallet or the ones hanging on your walls?

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Your comment:
“God commanded the Isrealites to make the cheibum. He specifically cammanded that other images not be made. God did not liscence all images by His command as your line of reasoning would suggest.”

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My follow-up question:
"Oh, really? Where?
God instructed Moses to make a bronze serpent and place it on a pole so that those who looked on it were cured."

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Your comment:
“There are a number of comprimises with paganism but you will not agree to these so the others I will not present them.”

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My request:
“Please show me where the Church compromises with paganism.”

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Now - enlighten me, please . . .

PS - You call God a liar when you claim he commanded that we make no graven image for any other purpose than to worship because He commanded the making of graven images for other purposes.

Elvis this is not an inquisition.
When will you answer my questions?

 

[SpiritMeadow]

No, you are not correct. NOT ALL ARE CALLED. If you are called to be a Priest it is a calling that comes from God and God only. God chooses you for this calling. We don’t aim for this, The bible does not say we should aim for this, the bible said it is a calling from Christ.

You are thoroughly misunderstanding. I am agreeing with you. Celibacy is a calling, not something people should strive for, otherwise it would make no sense that RCC also teaches that we are to go forth and multiply. That implies sex, and that of course means marriage. I am sorry you got confused somewhere.

 

[SpiritMeadow]

Frankly, the rules require charity but to be honest saying that a protestant belief is heresy does not violate the forum rules because this is a Catholic forum. If I were at an evangelical forum and stated that my beliefs was the true church was the cathlic church I might get away with that but to go further and say that all protestant faiths are any protestant beliefs are heresy would probably gt me banned while a protestant saying the catholic church is the whore of Babylon (which some protestants teach, and for some reason that teaching really amuses me, I guess because it to me is so false, Off topic as an aside while I am off topic, I was raised an evangelical Baptist and my parents still belong to that church, they are horrified about my beliefs and the fact I am catholic, I grew up and began to have two problems, one I prayed so hard I stayed up all night some nights, for faith and belief, it never came, I also began to just dispise the God of the Baptist church, I finnally decided I was agnostic but it did not matter because if God was like the Baptist discribed him I wasnt interestd anyway. I began to got to mass with my catholic wife, with no imput from her but woke up one day and had faith, God had granted me what I had prayed for all those years ago with no deserving on my part(of course there nerver is) but through the church God provided and I converted and have been a lector, been in charge of the RCIA progrsam and love the RCC), yesterday one of my sons and I who live during the week with my parents went to mass and obviously got ashes, my parents had this big frown on their faces when we came in, did not like the ashes in their home. I exagerate to make the point but you get the drift I presume). The point is, yes we can say that protestant beliefs are heresy no you cant say the same thing because it is a catholic forum. we need to say it with charity but all the same it is(the forum) here for catholic answers not for protestants to convert the pagan/heathen catholics.

Thank you for answering honestly! I truly appreciate that. I find it unfair as you have stated. Unfortunately, I have long suspected that the rules are different here depending on whether one is RCC or not. Given that, I find it sad that it is occurring. I find nothing Christian in such attacks as are common here. There is a person speaking on a thread about Muslims who is claiming they are ALL godless. It is simply unbelievable that any forum which claims to be Christian in nature would allow such foul and bigoted talk. In the name of Christendom, we all love and obey the same God and Savior. There is no room for this vile behavior. And I’ll warrant that very few f any of these Protestant and non-Christian denigrators would say these words to the face of those they speak to here. At least not as long as their nose was within striking distance of the other’s fist.

If indeed the forum does not police this behavior, then fellow RCC and non RCC should do so. We can have discourse here if people will treat each other civily.

 

[SpiritMeadow]

That is not the teaching of the Catholic Church. And yes some are called to be married and have some children, some are not. Is brith control what your Church teaches? Where does the bible say that we should use brith control? Could you show me where having and loving children in a marriage goes against the teachings of Christ.

Rinnie, I’ve corrected another of your posts to me. Somewhere I think you mixed me up with someone else. I can’t begin to know how to unravel your confusion about what I have said and mean. Sorry friend.

 

[Hesychios]

Hello my brother,

All of the images are from the OCA website.

If I recall that particular photo is from the altar space of a parish in Canada, possibly Edmonton (I have already forgotten, sorry ).

As you are probably aware, the entire space behind the iconostasis is considered the altar (it is in fact, an apse), but the table itself is firmly rooted to the floor and freestanding (away from the walls).

That picture shows the clergy sitting in the altar (apse), east of the table, during the liturgy. All Orthodox parishes will have icons either mounted on the east wall or painted on as we see here. The only exception being brand new construction quickly put to use.

Of course, in older parishes they might not look as bright and crisply clean as this example .

Interestingly enough, this example looks like it may possibly be a tapestry! My old eyes do tend to play tricks on me…

 

[kpk]

I am going through a ceremony the day after tomorrow to be received into the Episcopal church. I have been taking a class to prepare for this that is filled with ex-Catholics. The most common reason my classmates have stated for converting is that they find the the open-minded, welcoming stance of the Episcopal church more in line with the teachings of Jesus.

 

[SSTeacher]

I am new to this conversation and haven’t read all the posts, so please forgive me if this is a bit off topic.

I left Christianity and the Catholic Church because I believe that it is based on an inherent (sorry about spelling) mis-truth or rather non-truth: that human being are flawed and are in need of “salvation.”

People can and do choose to turn away from God…but humans are not intrinsically “sinful.”

Humans are good…and God is good and we are supposed to be in a love relationship with Him/her

It seems to me that you are very much on topic and for that I’m thankful.

Appreciatively,
Mick

 

[SpiritMeadow]

The whole Protestantism has been debunked on very simple logic in this very thread actually. Perhaps you should take some time and really investigate the proof:

Why are there over 30,000 Protestant “churches” (denominations), all differing in some crucial “truth” revealed to them by the Holy Spirit (at least they claim so)? So who is right, Jehova’s Witnesses or perhaps Mormons?

But Holy Spirit does not lie. He would not go and tell one group one thing and another something else or opposite. We know who the father of lies is. So those truths are perhaps not revealed by Holy Spirit after all.

Protestantism invites each adherent to read the bible and make their own mind on pretty much anything. But if that is the case, why even belong to any protestant assembly? Why even listen to anything ANY protestant has to say. Their sole authority comes from the fact that they can read!

Jesus founded one church, on Peter the rock. That church has decided what books should be in the Bible, defined Trinity etc. You split from it very late in history and now claim you are the right church? Absurd.

Very last sentence in John’s gospel says that Jesus did so many other things that if every one of them should be written not even the whole world could contain the books that would be written, also going against the “scripture alone”.

Protestantism is total absurdity. So why should I even have a discourse with you? What is it that you think you can teach me? You are here to shout to everyone that you can read? We can do that too.

I don’t think that you can substantiate that Protestantism has been debunked, and I don’t think you really want to say that it is absurd. To do so, means that you must vilify millions of people, and surely you don’t mean to do that.

Some people have strong beliefs as you do. While I agree that Hisalone has strong speech that is unhelpful, he does make a point or two. There are groups that feel that icons, statues and the like are graven images akin to those baals that were prevelant in the OT. God through his prophets ridiculed them as being nothing more than handiwork of man. Jewish faith to this day makes no image of God nor does it name God for similar reasons.

I understand quite perfectly that these icons and statues “represent” or symbolize certain concept for many Christians, as they do me as well.

Because you become angry with someone’s inability to see you point is no good reason to accuse all non RCC as obsurd and I suspect you would say that differently if you could amend your remarks.

We are all here, doing the best we can to observe God’s laws as we understand them. God in Spirit has led some people to view things differently. We agree however on some basic concepts don’t we? We believe that Jesus sacrificed himself for us and for our ultimate salvation. Why don’t we remember that awesome fact before we tear at each other. Jesus asked us to love one another and forgive one another no matter how wrong we might think the other.

Blessings,

 

[SpiritMeadow]

Actually, if you paid attention same has been said repeatedly here about Catholic church by protestant satanists all along. Nothing new here. But I am not surprised. Protestantism defines itself as NOT catholic, where ever that may lead them (apparently directly to hell).

You need to go sit down and think a bit before you write any more. You’re losing control and becoming unseemly as a Christian.

 

[SpiritMeadow]

I am new to this conversation and haven’t read all the posts, so please forgive me if this is a bit off topic.

I left Christianity and the Catholic Church because I believe that it is based on an inherent (sorry about spelling) mis-truth or rather non-truth: that human being are flawed and are in need of “salvation.”

People can and do choose to turn away from God…but humans are not intrinsically “sinful.”

Humans are good…and God is good and we are supposed to be in a love relationship with Him/her

You will not find many here who would agree with you, but worldwide, you would find millions. I am so struck by God’s ability to reach out to all his creatures where ever they may be and to seek union with them. We all add in our way to the total glory of God. I appreciate your thoughts.

One thought. Although most Christians would claim that we are born sinful, some might say we are all prone to sin, and that ugly behavior separates us from God. Jesus, we believe offered himself as reparation for our sins past and future, and helps us continue in union with the Beloved Creator God.

Blessings,

 

[SpiritMeadow]

We’re having quite a debate over statues - eg are they graven images or not - aren’t we?

I wonder if there are couple factors in this debate that we haven’t yet considered that can influence people’s view on the images…

This came to mind when I saw the images that have been posted as part of our debate. I find them beautiful as art but would find them very distracting in a church setting. So I I wonder if the plainness of some churches is a result of this preference rather than theology.

Also do some people see more in these images than others - seeing them as representative rather than images alone. Again this would lead to a different view of them.

A very good question. I have a blogger friend who is Quaker. they of course have very simple meeting houses without adornment. I would assume he would say that it is distracting.

I on the other hand adore stained glass, especially in very old churches. I find it helps me focus on heavenly things more.

I suspect it is our personalities which draw us for or away from ornamentation and symbols. But just a thought!

 

[Salonika]

SpiritMeadow:

Given that, I find it sad that it is occurring. I find nothing Christian in such attacks as are common here … It is simply unbelievable that any forum which claims to be Christian in nature would allow such foul and bigoted talk… . There is no room for this vile behavior. And I’ll warrant that very few if any of these Protestant and non-Christian denigrators would say these words to the face of those they speak to here…

If indeed the forum does not police this behavior, then fellow RCC and non RCC should do so. We can have discourse here if people will treat each other civily.

Spirit Meadow I am totally with you on this. Some of the posts on this thread have gone well past robust debate, some into personal denigration.

Wonder what an introduction it gives it some new posters!!!

Maybe we need to draft our replies, delay sending them, and later check if we need to revise not what we are saying but how we are saying it. We should also check if whether the posting belongs on this thread, should be posted elsewhere, whether it is really a new thread, or whether it should be deleted.

 

[SpiritMeadow]

I am going through a ceremony the day after tomorrow to be received into the Episcopal church. I have been taking a class to prepare for this that is filled with ex-Catholics. The most common reason my classmates have stated for converting is that they find the the open-minded, welcoming stance of the Episcopal church more in line with the teachings of Jesus.

Yes that was close to my experience from talking to my fellow parishoners. But not all TEC are the same, and even here you will find some who adher to TEC churches that are much more conservative in their approach. We steadfastly refuse to require everyone accept one way of seeing. I am an exRCC and was received into the TEC in September. It was very moving. We recently received another woman, also exRCC. Blessings and welcome!

Msg privately if you have any questions. I don’t want to sidetrack things!

 

[Ronald_E]

Thank you Love, Maybe you can help me though. Could you maybe try to explain to hisalone how in the OT God has never revealed himself to us as man. But in the NT he indeed has, so Jesus CHrist hanging on the cross is not a grave image. Thanks Ron, Maybe you can explain it better then me. I am not having much luck.

Hi Rinnie, What Hisalone believes about the images is what he believes. What we know to be true about our belief is our belief. When God brought me home after 40 years in the desert, my beliefs were the false idol that I adored. God showed me His Love and my beliefs that influenced me to hate Catholicism and hold myself superior to the Church vanished in a millisecond.
As Paul opens in Galatians with “Paul, an apostle, not from human beings nor through a human being…” he identifies my return Home. I was lost because of a loss of love from human beings and I was found because of God’s Love.
At the moment I wrote this I feel love for Hisalone no matter what he says.
God Bless all of us.
Ron

 

[Hisalone]

I am going through a ceremony the day after tomorrow to be received into the Episcopal church. I have been taking a class to prepare for this that is filled with ex-Catholics. The most common reason my classmates have stated for converting is that they find the the open-minded, welcoming stance of the Episcopal church more in line with the teachings of Jesus.

The Episcopal stand on homosexuality?

 

[Ronald_E]

People leave the Church,
because they find pleasure in this mortal world, and forget God.
But if they would listen perhaps they would find knowledge in the words of Purpose and Law of God.

This Universe has a purpose, does it not?
Other wise it would be a mistake,
and mistakes cancel themselves out.
We know that by intellect which God so instilled in Man,
Just as fish breath underwater and birds fly, God gave us a soul.
And with that soul we govern nature, even now though our souls are imperfect because of the first test failed by Adam and Eve.

Thank you

God instilled intellect, not wisdom. God does not test. God gives us what we need to face the challenges of this life. Wisdom can only come from understanding the nature of suffering. Someone told me that sin actually means missing the mark. I do not know if that is correct.

 

[mario_grgic]

I don’t think that you can substantiate that Protestantism has been debunked, and I don’t think you really want to say that it is absurd. To do so, means that you must vilify millions of people, and surely you don’t mean to do that.

Some people have strong beliefs as you do. While I agree that Hisalone has strong speech that is unhelpful, he does make a point or two. There are groups that feel that icons, statues and the like are graven images akin to those baals that were prevelant in the OT. God through his prophets ridiculed them as being nothing more than handiwork of man. Jewish faith to this day makes no image of God nor does it name God for similar reasons.

I understand quite perfectly that these icons and statues “represent” or symbolize certain concept for many Christians, as they do me as well.

Because you become angry with someone’s inability to see you point is no good reason to accuse all non RCC as obsurd and I suspect you would say that differently if you could amend your remarks.

We are all here, doing the best we can to observe God’s laws as we understand them. God in Spirit has led some people to view things differently. We agree however on some basic concepts don’t we? We believe that Jesus sacrificed himself for us and for our ultimate salvation. Why don’t we remember that awesome fact before we tear at each other. Jesus asked us to love one another and forgive one another no matter how wrong we might think the other.

Blessings,

That’s all nice and feel good rhetoric. Let’s all get together and feel alright type of thing. But where the rubber meets the road things are quite different.

I don’t think I am condemning anyone. Unlike fundies hanging in here, I will defer that judgment to God.

You see I don’t believe that Catholics and protestants believe in the same Jesus at all. Because apparently their Jesus, did, said and meant completely different things than ours.

This is exactly what is meant by “splitting of the body of Christ”.

 

[Salonika]

Have you ever seen the traditional Cistercian style of decoration and design? Striking simplicity, and as bare as a Quaker Meeting hall with only the “exsisto silens” painted on the wall.

Beautiful in it’s own way and very conducive to meditation on the divine. It too has it’s place.

Thanks, I had forgotten the Cistercian style of decoration and design.

Would you believe the only photos ion this thread that I can’t see are those you posted in your reply. If you can give me link to them that would be great. Otherwise I google for some Cistercian websites.