Why do people leave the Catholic Church?

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Ronald E;4875177]Hi Rinnie, What Hisalone believes about the images is what he believes. What we know to be true about our belief is our belief. When God brought me home after 40 years in the desert, my beliefs were the false idol that I adored. God showed me His Love and my beliefs that influenced me to hate Catholicism and hold myself superior to the Church vanished in a millisecond.
As Paul opens in Galatians with “Paul, an apostle, not from human beings nor through a human being…” he identifies my return Home. I was lost because of a loss of love from human beings and I was found because of God’s Love.
At the moment I wrote this I feel love for Hisalone no matter what he says.
God Bless all of us.
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True:
I see it this way; most protestants are not capable of handling the truths of the Catholic Church. Perhaps the meal is too rich, it is hard to get used to Cordon Bleu when all you’ve ever eaten is Hamburger Helper. They also have trouble handling the disciplines demanded by the Church. Most defectors from the Faith defect because of carnal issues ie; Divorce-remarriage, contraception/abortion etc. Catholic/Orthodox worship is rich with soul-satisfying sounds, smells and ritual, which is a basic human hunger. protestant worship(?) is rather poor and sterile. Catholics worship God, protestants worship a book, seeing only the book and failing to realize that the book was given to them by Catholics and does not comprise the whole of worship. protestants cannot handle the idea of a Magesterium, even though they possess an internal magesterium that they alone are accountable to. Sad.
 
Hisalone said:
The Episcopal stand on homosexuality?
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If I may, TEC is very divided on this issue. We have an openly gay Bishop, and certainly my own parish in Iowa is very openly favorable to GLTB issues. We also have a woman priest. But there are many brands of Episcopalianism and some are much more conservative and don’t agree with gay rights per se nor women’s ordination. We have no centralized authority by choice.
 
mario_grgic said:
That’s all nice and feel good rhetoric. Let’s all get together and feel alright type of thing. But where the rubber meets the road things are quite different.

I don’t think I am condemning anyone. Unlike fundies hanging in here, I will defer that judgment to God.

You see I don’t believe that Catholics and protestants believe in the same Jesus at all. Because apparently their Jesus, did, said and meant completely different things than ours.

This is exactly what is meant by “splitting of the body of Christ”.
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No one is asking you to ignore what you believe. You should believe as you think your Church teaches of course. What I think ou are missing and I don’t mean to preach, is that many and given we all don’t really know each other, we should probably say, everyone, believes just as deeply that they are speaking the truth as they understand it to be.

The funny thing is you say, you don’t think that you see Jesus the way Non RCC see Jesus. That might be true. Or again, it may be more your personal perception. I find that I can agree with many RCC here. Fundamentally, Jesus is scarcely mentioned here sometimes and one wonders if he is read much at all. He did say to love your enemies, and other than in a few cases, Jesus was quite tender and kind to people, even when he corrected them. He often of course praised pagans for their belief, and others not of us his Jewish faith. He saw faith and was not burdened by denomination.

When you speak so unkindly and claim that Protestants are going to hell, then you are condemning it seems to me. It is not our place. I don’t know if there are fundamentalists here. I have seen RCC ones here to be sure, which was a shock to me I can surely say. But I suspect most are not, for they are trying to be good Roman Catholics and the Church warns of such narrowmindedness.

I don’t think we have to claim that the body of Christ is split. We can say that the Body of Christ has many flavors and colors. Like any mosaic, the total picture is what counts. Each piece of glass is rather unattractive by itself.

You see, if some here are correct and there is only orthodox Catholics and no other, then the Church has largely failed, The American church is reduced by 90%, probably as much in most of Western Europe. Then millions of non-Catholic Christians all doomed as well. To say nothing of the billions who have found God in other ways. So I think it best to at least consider all Christendom (an oxymoron if only RCC counts of course) a whole. I am aware most cannot leap to include the non-Christian but at least it is a beginning!
 
SpiritMeadow said:
You need to go sit down and think a bit before you write any more. You’re losing control and becoming unseemly as a Christian.
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What kind of bubble do you live in? Have you ever visited on of the fundie websites before?

Try

jesus-is-savior.com/

I know exactly who I’m dealing with. I also know where their theology comes from.
 
hosemonkey said:
True:
I see it this way; most protestants are not capable of handling the truths of the Catholic Church. Perhaps the meal is too rich, it is hard to get used to Cordon Bleu when all you’ve ever eaten is Hamburger Helper. They also have trouble handling the disciplines demanded by the Church. Most defectors from the Faith defect because of carnal issues ie; Divorce-remarriage, contraception/abortion etc. Catholic/Orthodox worship is rich with soul-satisfying sounds, smells and ritual, which is a basic human hunger. protestant worship(?) is rather poor and sterile. Catholics worship God, protestants worship a book, seeing only the book and failing to realize that the book was given to them by Catholics and does not comprise the whole of worship. protestants cannot handle the idea of a Magesterium, even though they possess an internal magesterium that they alone are accountable to. Sad.
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Not capable in what sense? Not intellectually capable? You are speaking of millions of people of course and you don’t mean to say that you are smarter and wiser than them all?

I think you might want to enter some other churches. I recall an RCC here, who thought he was at a Catholic Mass but for a couple of minor variations until after and he went outside and actually read the sign…ROFL…he had relied on the St. Michaels, and assumed it was Catholic.

I’m afraid you are wrong at least as to TEC, at least my version of it. We certainly don’t worship a book. Not all Non-RCC are sola scriptura, or were you unaware. The Bible arose from the early Church. Again, why is this ours ours ours necessary? Are you not happy to see anyone reading and believing in sacred scripture? That would be odd indeed.

What is the meaning of your phrase: they cannot handle a magesterium? We choose not to have centralized authority and dogma as such. It is not some intellectual exercise, but a conscience decision that we have chose. Your ideas of Protestantism, which you apparently lump all together is frightfully limited. It is never good to paint with a broad brush. You simply make your own argument weak and ineffectual.
 
elvisman said:
The anti-Catholic interpretation that claims God commanded that we make no graven images for any reason.
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Is that what makes one an anti-Catholic as well, having a different interpretation of scripture?

Continuing with that thought, is there any document that came out of Vatican II concerning Ecumenism that instructs the Catholic “faithful” to refer to non-Catholics as anti-Catholics because it’s believed by CC leadership that’s an encouraging and effective means of convincing people that they need to be in communion with the CC?

Or, is that something the “faithful” have taken it upon themselves to do?

Also, can you show me in the Catechism any references to your separated brethren as "anti-Catholics," or any post-Vatican II Papal statements referring to your separated brethren with that term?

Or, is that something the “faithful” have taken it upon themselves to do as well?

elvisman said:
He forbade the making of idols for worship. Conversly - He commanded the making of graven images for other purposes.
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God commanded Israel to make images for the Ark, and for the temple. Where has God commanded the NT Church to do so?
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elvisman:
God instructed Moses to make a bronze serpent and place it on a pole so that those who looked on it were cured."
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Did Moses make the bronze serpent “for himself?”

Did God instruct Moses to instruct the people to worship the bronze serpent?

Has God instructed the NT Church to make images?
 
SpiritMeadow said:
Not capable in what sense? Not intellectually capable? You are speaking of millions of people of course and you don’t mean to say that you are smarter and wiser than them all?

I think you might want to enter some other churches. I recall an RCC here, who thought he was at a Catholic Mass but for a couple of minor variations until after and he went outside and actually read the sign…ROFL…he had relied on the St. Michaels, and assumed it was Catholic.

I’m afraid you are wrong at least as to TEC, at least my version of it. We certainly don’t worship a book. Not all Non-RCC are sola scriptura, or were you unaware. The Bible arose from the early Church. Again, why is this ours ours ours necessary? Are you not happy to see anyone reading and believing in sacred scripture? That would be odd indeed.

What is the meaning of your phrase: they cannot handle a magesterium? We choose not to have centralized authority and dogma as such. It is not some intellectual exercise, but a conscience decision that we have chose. Your ideas of Protestantism, which you apparently lump all together is frightfully limited. It is never good to paint with a broad brush. You simply make your own argument weak and ineffectual.
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Hisalone said:
Elvis this is not an inquisition.
When will you answer my questions?
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I’ll answer any question you ask but you haven’t asked any.
All I ask is that you answer mine. This is the only way to have intelligent dialogue.
 
Howie01 said:
Is that what makes one an anti-Catholic as well, having a different interpretation of scripture?

Continuing with that thought, is there any document that came out of Vatican II concerning Ecumenism that instructs the Catholic “faithful” to refer to non-Catholics as anti-Catholics because it’s believed by CC leadership that’s an encouraging and effective means of convincing people that they need to be in communion with the CC?

Or, is that something the “faithful” have taken it upon themselves to do?

Also, can you show me in the Catechism any references to your separated brethren as "anti-Catholics," or any post-Vatican II Papal statements referring to your separated brethren with that term?

Or, is that something the “faithful” have taken it upon themselves to do as well?

God commanded Israel to make images for the Ark, and for the temple. Where has God commanded the NT Church to do so?

Did Moses make the bronze serpent “for himself?”

Did God instruct Moses to instruct the people to worship the bronze serpent?

Has God instructed the NT Church to make images?
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Hi Howie01,

Do you have any thoughts or opinions as to why people leave the Catholic Church?

Hopefully,
Mick
👍
 
Howie01 said:
Is that what makes one an anti-Catholic as well, having a different interpretation of scripture?

Continuing with that thought, is there any document that came out of Vatican II concerning Ecumenism that instructs the Catholic “faithful” to refer to non-Catholics as anti-Catholics because it’s believed by CC leadership that’s an encouraging and effective means of convincing people that they need to be in communion with the CC?

Or, is that something the “faithful” have taken it upon themselves to do?

Also, can you show me in the Catechism any references to your separated brethren as "anti-Catholics," or any post-Vatican II Papal statements referring to your separated brethren with that term?

Or, is that something the “faithful” have taken it upon themselves to do as well?

God commanded Israel to make images for the Ark, and for the temple. Where has God commanded the NT Church to do so?

Did Moses make the bronze serpent “for himself?”

Did God instruct Moses to instruct the people to worship the bronze serpent?

Has God instructed the NT Church to make images?
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I called it an anti-Catholic interpretation because no matter how much proof and logic is shown to the contrary - the Catholic is always accused of idolatry. So, yes - I stick with that description. Nice dance around the issue, though . . .

Where has God commanded the NT Church NOT to make graven images that are not idols?

Moses made the broze serpent for the people, yes.

No, they didn’t worship it, and neither do Catholics worship images. Is that what you’re implying?
 
elvisman said:
I called it an anti-Catholic interpretation because no matter how much proof and logic is shown to the contrary - the Catholic is always accused of idolatry. So, yes - I stick with that description. Nice dance around the issue, though . . .

Where has God commanded the NT Church NOT to make graven images that are not idols?

Moses made the broze serpent for the people, yes.

No, they didn’t worship it, and neither do Catholics worship images. Is that what you’re implying?
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Aren’t the Orthodox accused of idolatry?
 
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hosemonkey:
I see it this way; most protestants are not capable of handling the truths of the Catholic Church. Perhaps the meal is too rich, it is hard to get used to Cordon Bleu when all you’ve ever eaten is Hamburger Helper.
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Do you consider that most Protestants lack taste? Maybe they just have different tastes. Maybe there is a place for both Cordon Bleu and Hamburger Helper. Sometimes too, they may understand but not agree with Catholic doctrine.
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hosemonkey:
They also have trouble handling the disciplines demanded by the Church. Most defectors from the Faith defect because of carnal issues ie; Divorce-remarriage, contraception/abortion etc.
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Each person has their own reasons for leaving or staying with a Church. So you believe that people who leave the Catholic Church or do not join because because they disagree with aspects of the Catholic Church’s views on sexual matters are carnal?

Also some sexual matters have little or nothing related to sex - I could never be part of any Church that has some of its people telling me that I must marry, live at home until I marry and not work before or after marriage.
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hosemonkey:
Catholic/Orthodox worship is rich with soul-satisfying sounds, smells and ritual, which is a basic human hunger. protestant worship(?) is rather poor and sterile.
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What one person considers poor and sterile may not be too some else. I would be more distracted by the sounds, smell and ritual that feed you. What you consider poor and sterile I find more conducive. This is a result of personality traits and having one set of traits is not, in my opinion, better than others.

Also there is a much stronger preaching tradition in much Protestant worship - something that apeals to me. I need my brain as well as soul fed in worship.
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hosemonkey:
Catholics worship God, protestants worship a book, seeing only the book and failing to realize that the book was given to them by Catholics and does not comprise the whole of worship. protestants cannot handle the idea of a Magesterium, even though they possess an internal magesterium that they alone are accountable to. Sad.
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Protestants do not worship a book any more than Catholics worship images. If some do they are misled or it may be the way they speak. We are not always able to perfectly articulate what we want to say or what we believe.
 
I cannot believe that anyone would believe that Christ would build His church on a sinful human being (Peter). In Matthew 16:17/18 Peter realized who Christ was, and Christ said to him “thou art Peter” (a stone) ,and upon this Rock (Himself) I will build My church. We don’t succeed from one to the other as the Catholic church say’s we do (Popes) and I don’t recall reading in scripture that Peter was called a pope, in fact he was just another disciple no different than the rest. Christ is the “cornerstone” of His church.He will build His church and I am part of that church. PTL, Ralph.
 
elvisman said:
I called it an anti-Catholic interpretation because no matter how much proof and logic is shown to the contrary - the Catholic is always accused of idolatry. So, yes - I stick with that description. Nice dance around the issue, though . . .
We can’t change another’s belief through our words. If we try to defend our faith we create an antagonistic relationship and fall into the “trap” set by the master of deception. If we love we have nothing to defend. The Catholic beliefs that others reject only show me how much more I have to learn about loving in the sense of the beatitudes that Our Lord directly instructs to live with.
I just read this morning that God prevents others from seeing so that we who do see can show God’s Love in our action to those who oppose us. They are the barometer by which we are measured in our capacity to love as God Loves.
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SpiritMeadow said:
Not capable in what sense? Not intellectually capable? You are speaking of millions of people of course and you don’t mean to say that you are smarter and wiser than them all?

I think you might want to enter some other churches. I recall an RCC here, who thought he was at a Catholic Mass but for a couple of minor variations until after and he went outside and actually read the sign…ROFL…he had relied on the St. Michaels, and assumed it was Catholic.

I’m afraid you are wrong at least as to TEC, at least my version of it. We certainly don’t worship a book. Not all Non-RCC are sola scriptura, or were you unaware. The Bible arose from the early Church. Again, why is this ours ours ours necessary? Are you not happy to see anyone reading and believing in sacred scripture? That would be odd indeed.
What is the meaning of your phrase: they cannot handle a magesterium? We choose not to have centralized authority and dogma as such. It is not some intellectual exercise, but a conscience decision that we have chose. Your ideas of Protestantism, which you apparently lump all together is frightfully limited. It is never good to paint with a broad brush. You simply make your own argument weak and ineffectual.
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And you have traded your birthright for a mess of pottage. Anyone who would trade the gold of True Faith for the base metal of a religion founded by a madman and the world-conforming slavery of gay and abortion-friendly Episcopalianism is not wise, in my opinion.
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mario_grgic:
What kind of bubble do you live in? Have you ever visited on of the fundie websites before?
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Just because one site, person etc is ruder, nastier, more intolerant doesn’t, in my view, justify others being nasty, rude and intolerant.
 
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Hesychios:
Let’s try this
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Yes, the photos came up fine.

And yes, that is more my style of architecture - though I realise that’s is not for everyone.

Will also go on to some Cistercian sites to see more.

Thanks

Salonika
 
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hosemonkey:
And you have traded your birthright for a mess of pottage. Anyone who would trade the gold of True Faith for the base metal of a religion founded by a madman.
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Whatever Henry V111 may have become later he was not a madman at the time of the “break from Rome”, so that comment is inaccurate.

Also I don’t think that his fears about not having a male heir were mad. After all the Tudors were usurpers and they hadn’t yet had Henry’s daughter Elizabeth on the throne to show that a woman could be a successful monarch.

More recent monarchs have divorced/had their marriage annulled because their wives did not provide an heir (unfair in some cases as it was the king was the one who was unable to father children.)
 
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