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Steve_Andersen
Guest
how many who don’t leave use ABC?
do you really think that is a deciding factor?
do you really think that is a deciding factor?
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Buckeyejoe
Guest
#1 reason today people are leaving the Cathoilc Church is because of lowsy sermons!!!
#2 reason is too many luke warm Catholics.
#3 Too many people spending all there time posting on this forum page and not getting their messages out to the real world.
Thanks
Joe.
#2 reason is too many luke warm Catholics.
#3 Too many people spending all there time posting on this forum page and not getting their messages out to the real world.
Thanks
Joe.
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Church_Militant
Guest
Very possibly because there are so many of us who have left, checked out where you’re at, and come back to the faith because where you are is inadequate. I certainly found it so…especially after hearing all the allegations from n-Cs who don’t have the foggiest clue and ex-Cs who are p.o.'d at the church for some reason and have then listened to the preachers who know diddly about Catholicism and have the nerve to preach against it. That doesn’t change the fact that when I checked out all those allegations…(and I did indeed!)
I found that they were all unfounded and did what any honest seeker of the truth would do…went where the truth is.
Pax vobiscum,
C
Church_Militant
Guest
Buckeyejoe said:
Physician…heal thyself?
C
clarkal
Guest
I guess it depends on the person whom you’re trying to scare. When I am threatened with hell, I think it is sad that people have to resort to such a threat instead of rational discussion. I am personally not scared by such fear tactics.
clarkal
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opticks
Guest
My process of “leaving” the Church started very young. By asking tough (yet typical) questions about God and science, and receiving ignorant replies, the stage was set for a quick exit. I remember thinking at my confirmation mass, “This is so much b-s” By the time I went to college, I hadn’t been to church in over five years. I found the Bible so full of errors and contradictions that I taunted my parents with verse after verse on Easter Sunday, just for fun. I pretty much hated all those who called themselves Christian, writing them off as self-aggrandizing fakes who talked-the-talk, but rarely walked it.
My girlfriend wanted us to marry in the Church, so I agreed to go with her. I figured I could learn something by going, but still really didn’t believe any of it. The final straw came when the priest gave us a good scolding for living together and pretty much walked out on us. I chalked up a “win” in my column, and my girlfriend experienced a Dresden-esque spritual firebombing. My coup-de-grace came when her parents, model Catholics by any measure, suggested we should have lied to the priest.
We were married by a non-denominational minister and spent three years together sans Eucharist. But since this thread is about leaving, I’ll leave my re-conversion for a later time.
My girlfriend wanted us to marry in the Church, so I agreed to go with her. I figured I could learn something by going, but still really didn’t believe any of it. The final straw came when the priest gave us a good scolding for living together and pretty much walked out on us. I chalked up a “win” in my column, and my girlfriend experienced a Dresden-esque spritual firebombing. My coup-de-grace came when her parents, model Catholics by any measure, suggested we should have lied to the priest.
We were married by a non-denominational minister and spent three years together sans Eucharist. But since this thread is about leaving, I’ll leave my re-conversion for a later time.
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bones_IV
Guest
You my friend are blind and your also a sophist! Not Scared? My intent was not to scare, but to warn you of what will happen if that great sin remains unrepented. You’ll believe in the existence of hell when you get there. As far as I’m concerned your a member of a false religion and are denying the faith of your baptism. There’s only one true religion, that’s Catholicism. What I told was not irrational, but the truth.
Padre Pio “The Rosary is the weapon.”
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Traditional_Ang
Guest
Michael:
I was the guy in the pew next to someone. I read at Mass, belonged to the KofC, and when I left, NO ONE seemed to notice. NO ONE seemed to notice when I came in late to Mass wearing a sirt from the day before with lipstick on the collar. NO ONE seemed to ontice when I couldn’t make my bills. NO ONE Sseemed to notice when I moved, or when I moved again to live -in with my first girlfriend. Or, When I married outside the Church, and then divorced (I’ve spent multiple hours in Confession, God’s Operating Room, on this one, and I’m still not finished with the surgeries…)…
Hesychios:
By the time I came Back, I had to be carried back, and by that time, I had one of those Fiery serpants that’s described in the book of Exodus attached to me. So, I chose a SMALL PARISH with a LOT OF PRIESTS (sorry, not Catholic) where I had the best chance of having someone take care of a seriously wounded individual.
So, far, they’ve taken care of me. The serpant’s gone, and I’ve found a few people who care whether I live or die and who think it matters that I live and do OK.
And, I’m very, very grateful for that, and very grateful that someone had the courage and cared enough about me to catch me up short and carry me to the doors in spite of the fact that it wasn’t his religion.
And, if the negotiations between the TAC and Rome fall through, I might be in shape one day to deal with a Mega-Parish, but not know. I still need a LOT more convalescing.
Blessing and Peace, Michael
I was the guy in the pew next to someone. I read at Mass, belonged to the KofC, and when I left, NO ONE seemed to notice. NO ONE seemed to notice when I came in late to Mass wearing a sirt from the day before with lipstick on the collar. NO ONE seemed to ontice when I couldn’t make my bills. NO ONE Sseemed to notice when I moved, or when I moved again to live -in with my first girlfriend. Or, When I married outside the Church, and then divorced (I’ve spent multiple hours in Confession, God’s Operating Room, on this one, and I’m still not finished with the surgeries…)…
By the time I started thinking about coming back, I was such a mess that I was afraid that NO ONE would accept me, that NO ONE would even let me in the doors, let alone want me to come and to get to know me (More hours in God’s operating room).
By the time I came Back, I had to be carried back, and by that time, I had one of those Fiery serpants that’s described in the book of Exodus attached to me. So, I chose a SMALL PARISH with a LOT OF PRIESTS (sorry, not Catholic) where I had the best chance of having someone take care of a seriously wounded individual.
So, far, they’ve taken care of me. The serpant’s gone, and I’ve found a few people who care whether I live or die and who think it matters that I live and do OK.
And, I’m very, very grateful for that, and very grateful that someone had the courage and cared enough about me to catch me up short and carry me to the doors in spite of the fact that it wasn’t his religion.
And, if the negotiations between the TAC and Rome fall through, I might be in shape one day to deal with a Mega-Parish, but not know. I still need a LOT more convalescing.
Blessing and Peace, Michael
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Traditional_Ang
Guest
Bones,
Bet Ami just might, but I don’t believe that’s up to us to say. Unless you’re a Priest, you have not been given the power of Binding and Loosing.
I do believe that we can tell Bet Ami that we believe that she’s made a terrible error, rejecting the Son of God and HER Messiah!
Remember, we don’t want to scare her off. We want her to re-examine the scriptures relating to the Messiah so that she can realize the horrible mistake that she’s made.
Just so you know, I personally know a woman who’s in her 70’s and is a lifelong Catholic who had never heard that jesus had claimed to be God in the Flesh until I (who at that time had all of 10 months back in a Church) pointed out the Scriptures to her and described to her exactly what the words Jesus used meant and why the Jewish authorities screamed, “Blasphemy!”
Our job isn’t to blast people out of the water. Our job is to try to help bring them (back) into the Kingdom of God.
Blessings and Peace, Michael
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Traditional_Ang
Guest
Opticks:
I don’t know what kind of “tough (yet typical)” questions you were asking about God and Science in Church, but you must not have givben people much time to answer or decided that you didn’t want to here what they had to say, Because I know One of the people involved in this study (He’s a Medical Doctor) who’s a committed Christian:
planetpuna.com/run/datproject.htm
And, there’s a book called The Bible Code, by Michael Drosnin which is based on the work of some Israeli Mathematicians. if you don’t want to buy the book, you can find the review here:
bbc.co.uk/dna/getwriting/A275320
I’ve found that people who “Leave the Church over the Conflict between God and Science” usually don’t understand either.
opticks:
Or, was all this done to justify what I did, and what you’re doing now?
Can I ask you a question, how did it make you feel taunting your parents? Did it make you feel powerful? What did they do to deserve that abuse from you? Is that they way you want people to treat you? or, Now that you’re freed from the dictates of religion, is this part of the deal - That you get to be as nasty to other people as you damn well please, not caring about their feelings or even about common human decency?
Can I ask? what happens when someone decides to turn the tables on you and treat you as you have treated others?
You know, in all of the sinning and stumbling and damage that I did while I was OUT, I can honestly say that I never deliberatly mistreated someone as you’ve just described here. Are you proud of doing that?! Are you proud of mistreating these people whose only crime was trying to be kind to you?!
Blessings, Michael
I don’t know what kind of “tough (yet typical)” questions you were asking about God and Science in Church, but you must not have givben people much time to answer or decided that you didn’t want to here what they had to say, Because I know One of the people involved in this study (He’s a Medical Doctor) who’s a committed Christian:
planetpuna.com/run/datproject.htm
And, there’s a book called The Bible Code, by Michael Drosnin which is based on the work of some Israeli Mathematicians. if you don’t want to buy the book, you can find the review here:
bbc.co.uk/dna/getwriting/A275320
I’ve found that people who “Leave the Church over the Conflict between God and Science” usually don’t understand either.
Regarding “Conflicts in the Bible”, most people find them as a result of bad Bible instruction which seems more intent on producing people who feel and act as you do than on producing People of Faith. I’'ve found that just about all of what we call “Conflicts” are the result of different POV’s on the same incident or the same truth. We accept those differences in Court, business or the classroom without Question, because we know what they arise from. Why can’t you accept them in Scripture? and, Aren’t most of what you call “Conflicts” really your attempts to explain away the miraculous?
Or, was all this done to justify what I did, and what you’re doing now?
Can I ask you a question, how did it make you feel taunting your parents? Did it make you feel powerful? What did they do to deserve that abuse from you? Is that they way you want people to treat you? or, Now that you’re freed from the dictates of religion, is this part of the deal - That you get to be as nasty to other people as you damn well please, not caring about their feelings or even about common human decency?
Can I ask? what happens when someone decides to turn the tables on you and treat you as you have treated others?
You know, in all of the sinning and stumbling and damage that I did while I was OUT, I can honestly say that I never deliberatly mistreated someone as you’ve just described here. Are you proud of doing that?! Are you proud of mistreating these people whose only crime was trying to be kind to you?!
Blessings, Michael
M
Maccabees
Guest
As a bas song once said they “are looking for love in all the wrong places”
People make mistakes when they look for love why wouldn’t falliable men make mistakes when looking for the God who is Love and where he is most present.
Some leave out of pride some leave because sadly memebers of the church have hurt them. It’s too easy to generalize but its a combination of their fault and the members of the church.
People make mistakes when they look for love why wouldn’t falliable men make mistakes when looking for the God who is Love and where he is most present.
Some leave out of pride some leave because sadly memebers of the church have hurt them. It’s too easy to generalize but its a combination of their fault and the members of the church.
H
Hermione
Guest
I don’t think it’s accurate to attribute the decline to Vatican II. It’s more probably because of the growing secular culture that brainwashes us starting at a very young age. (And not only through the media, but in a big, big way though public education and colleges.)
Even Catholic schools don’t seem to be very Catholic. I’ve seen several comments on this board saying that their children were being taught falsely in Catholic schools. My fiance went to a Catholic school, and as far as I remember he said they taught that masturbation and birth control were okay.
I went to a public school. I still remember my biology teacher making fun of Christianity, sex education classes at 12 or 13 years old (and I think this included perverse sexual acts as well as intercourse), I think they were even talking about making kids read books about homosexuals to further their agenda. I shudder to think what they are teaching in universities.
I think that it’s a big accomplishment to have even 20% attendance in today’s culture.
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Franze
Guest
I am agree although there wasn´t Vatican II, I think that it was very positive, though, the culture is very hostile to the church
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bones_IV
Guest
Traditional Ang:
Padre Pio “The Rosary is the weapon.”
I was doing it out of charity. I was saying that if the sin remains unrepented it will lead to eternal loss. Not trying to scare her, just warning her.
Padre Pio “The Rosary is the weapon.”
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burnside
Guest
Buckeyejoe said:
Dead right.I know i’m fed up going on a secular website trying to defend the Church against snide remarks and finding my replies are ignored and the same anti-catholic remarks get repeated.They think if they say something often enough they will be believed.
They are getting away with it because there are not enough catholics prepared to offer support on these websites.
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clarkal
Guest
What is “warning” someone if not an attempt to scare them to some degree of the consequences of their actions?
For your information, I am not a member of any religion. I am an atheist.
And my vision is fine.
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teresa613
Guest
Many left because their souls wanted to find its true home. That was one of the reasons that I left. I am now a Jew in the Conservative movement of Judaism.
I can understand your journey, mine was similar, I was a catholic who converted to Orthodox Judaism, a few years ago I would have believed what you believed but I had to learn, how beautiful Torah is, how beautiful the mitzvot are, they are a hollow system without spirit. And they don’t make people good. Even if the rabbis teach so, people can leave a total observant life and be wicked in their hearts. My proof, living a live by mizvot is a waste of time, it has no effect on the soul. Most Jews I met, do everything out of guilt, out of a form of social connection to the group they belong to. Or to say, if I don’t go to shul, what makes me Jewish? I saw much hatred, bigotry, lies, double standards which I could not take anymore. The most I was disgusted by the anti-catholic and anti-christian and anti-gentile attitude.
How beautiful Torah could be with God’s spirit, but without it is just an empty system without meaning.
I had to make my decision, I started returning to church last June. And I still only go to church, I am not sure if I am ready to return totally. Faith so far is only a glimpse of my former faith but I hope with God’s Grace, I come to a deep faith again as I saw without God’s grace, all the mizvot just become a self-righteous system.
I remember the last real time I was at shul, the cantor was outstanding but I felt something missing, the next Sunday I was back at mass, as I saw the Eucharist I knew what I missed.
It is my first Easter since 7 years away, for me a symbolic time, a time of lots of learning, and as I was at mass Palm Sunday, I nearly cried, why was I away so many years from something I loved so deeply?
Parts of Judaism will always be with me, when I read St. Paul now, it is like he is speaking out of my soul. I understand him much better than 7 years ago.
If you found a home in Judaism, I am happy for you, I never did, from the day I arrived in the US, they dispised me and wanted to get rid of me.
Brigitte Shira
I can understand your journey, mine was similar, I was a catholic who converted to Orthodox Judaism, a few years ago I would have believed what you believed but I had to learn, how beautiful Torah is, how beautiful the mitzvot are, they are a hollow system without spirit. And they don’t make people good. Even if the rabbis teach so, people can leave a total observant life and be wicked in their hearts. My proof, living a live by mizvot is a waste of time, it has no effect on the soul. Most Jews I met, do everything out of guilt, out of a form of social connection to the group they belong to. Or to say, if I don’t go to shul, what makes me Jewish? I saw much hatred, bigotry, lies, double standards which I could not take anymore. The most I was disgusted by the anti-catholic and anti-christian and anti-gentile attitude.
How beautiful Torah could be with God’s spirit, but without it is just an empty system without meaning.
I had to make my decision, I started returning to church last June. And I still only go to church, I am not sure if I am ready to return totally. Faith so far is only a glimpse of my former faith but I hope with God’s Grace, I come to a deep faith again as I saw without God’s grace, all the mizvot just become a self-righteous system.
I remember the last real time I was at shul, the cantor was outstanding but I felt something missing, the next Sunday I was back at mass, as I saw the Eucharist I knew what I missed.
It is my first Easter since 7 years away, for me a symbolic time, a time of lots of learning, and as I was at mass Palm Sunday, I nearly cried, why was I away so many years from something I loved so deeply?
Parts of Judaism will always be with me, when I read St. Paul now, it is like he is speaking out of my soul. I understand him much better than 7 years ago.
If you found a home in Judaism, I am happy for you, I never did, from the day I arrived in the US, they dispised me and wanted to get rid of me.
Brigitte Shira
O
OutinChgoburbs
Guest
I don’t think I will leave the Church, having done that once for a period of a summer, and found it to be the True Church (and the Eucharist to be the BBSD of Jesus, which NO Protestant denomination has, no matter how close they try to aim for it). But I am thinking seriously of changing parishes, perhaps going so far as to sell my home and move, and I’ll tell you why.
I have a special skill which my parish direly needed and could not afford. I utilized that skill, freely to the parish, and found that there were irregularities which another parishioner and an outsider had created, irregularities that could have cost the parish a true fortune, and possibly shut down the parish school. These irregularities are clearly in violation of diocese policy.
The other parishioner is quite well off financially. It seems this person expects to continue to do the damage this person did, simply because this person made a large donation that employs this skill. I experienced this person calling me every name in the book to my face, in the school building. I was told- at the top of this person’s lungs- I stole this parishioner’s position, a position this person “bought”, and I have no right to be here, as this family has been in the parish for over 50 years, and we have been there four years.
The headmaster is quite willing to tell the donor thanks but no thanks. The pastor is not. He is not old, not young, and was not raised in the parish. I’m not sure if it’s to keep the money in the parish, or because he wants everybody to be happy. Either way, it is wrong.
It has escalated to the point where all the work I’ve completed in the past four months is about to be undone. Why? Because the pastor is practicing what he calls mediation. It is not mediation. I am familiar with mediation, esp. Christian mediation. It is appeasement, pure and simple. It is getting ridiculous, to the point where the allegedly wealthy parishioner is trying to cause trouble and create factions and cliques. It reminds me of a bully who doesn’t get his way. I was asked at one point what this person could do in regards to the skill in question. I told the pastor and the headmaster nothing, as if this person were to access said equipment, this person could cause damage to the whole system.
I was recently “hired” for a token payment, and told I could not utilize the diocese’s anonymous report system because of it. I know better- but I also know if I talk to the diocese, I am washed up at this parish.
I have prayed- not mere, “Please God” but down-on-my-knees repeated adoration at a parish that has offers Adoration with more regularity than once a month. The only thought that crosses my brain is, “This is not your battle. Do what it is right, and fear not.”
So I will do what is right, and then go.
If somebody was about to leave the Church, this would certainly be a good reason, looking at the lack of guts on the part of the pastor, as well as the formation of factions within the parish. I know I don’t want to stay after all is said and done.
Oh- and the pastor wonders why evangelization doesn’t work as well as it should, and bring in new families.
I have a special skill which my parish direly needed and could not afford. I utilized that skill, freely to the parish, and found that there were irregularities which another parishioner and an outsider had created, irregularities that could have cost the parish a true fortune, and possibly shut down the parish school. These irregularities are clearly in violation of diocese policy.
The other parishioner is quite well off financially. It seems this person expects to continue to do the damage this person did, simply because this person made a large donation that employs this skill. I experienced this person calling me every name in the book to my face, in the school building. I was told- at the top of this person’s lungs- I stole this parishioner’s position, a position this person “bought”, and I have no right to be here, as this family has been in the parish for over 50 years, and we have been there four years.
The headmaster is quite willing to tell the donor thanks but no thanks. The pastor is not. He is not old, not young, and was not raised in the parish. I’m not sure if it’s to keep the money in the parish, or because he wants everybody to be happy. Either way, it is wrong.
It has escalated to the point where all the work I’ve completed in the past four months is about to be undone. Why? Because the pastor is practicing what he calls mediation. It is not mediation. I am familiar with mediation, esp. Christian mediation. It is appeasement, pure and simple. It is getting ridiculous, to the point where the allegedly wealthy parishioner is trying to cause trouble and create factions and cliques. It reminds me of a bully who doesn’t get his way. I was asked at one point what this person could do in regards to the skill in question. I told the pastor and the headmaster nothing, as if this person were to access said equipment, this person could cause damage to the whole system.
I was recently “hired” for a token payment, and told I could not utilize the diocese’s anonymous report system because of it. I know better- but I also know if I talk to the diocese, I am washed up at this parish.
I have prayed- not mere, “Please God” but down-on-my-knees repeated adoration at a parish that has offers Adoration with more regularity than once a month. The only thought that crosses my brain is, “This is not your battle. Do what it is right, and fear not.”
So I will do what is right, and then go.
If somebody was about to leave the Church, this would certainly be a good reason, looking at the lack of guts on the part of the pastor, as well as the formation of factions within the parish. I know I don’t want to stay after all is said and done.
Oh- and the pastor wonders why evangelization doesn’t work as well as it should, and bring in new families.
O
OutinChgoburbs
Guest
HOW TRUE!!! Glad you’re back.
P
Philthy
Guest
All good stuff, however you didn’t quote the percentage of people remaining in the Catholic Church who use ABC. That would be significant to your argument. If we see a higher percentage of individuals who remain in the church practicing, say NFP, instead of ABC then your argument has specific support for the doctrine you have isolated as having a causal relationship to people leaving the Church. Otherwise, we don’t know if its an incidental finding or not…
Phil
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