Why do people leave the Faith. What are we doing wrong?

[WilT]

The thing is with this thread, you have a lot of Catholics posting why they think people have left the church. But in reality, these are all assumptions, some of which may be wildly off base…

With all due respect your Grandmother story, her story is just one of many reasons people have left. I don’t believe those posters responded on assumptions as you claim, but they may have heard it first hand, as many of us have heard.

 

[PaulinVA]

If Mass is a “product” provided by clergy for which the laity takes no responsibility, in what sense is that worship, though? The best performance of the world’s greatest sacred music wouldn’t be worship, but a concert. There is nothing wrong with concerts, but the participation of an audience and a congregation is fundamentally different.

This is an interesting discussion. What responsibility can I take for the Mass? If I participate in the Mass, say all the prayers, sing all the hymns, pray at the appropriate times, does that overcome the screeching lector or the priest who can’t preach?

If you say it’s all internal and I get out what I put into it, then we are accepting mediocrity in our worship.

In the context of this thread, I am putting forth that two reason people leave the Church are treatment by clergy/staff and uninspired worship. The clergy part is not all the clergys’ fault - sometimes people find themselves in situations where there is no easy answer. The worship is totally within the control of the clergy.

 

[Avocadomom]

I think you can take all the reasons people leave and boil them down to one thing: Those who leave don’t believe that the Church’s teachings are true.

If they thought what the Church thought was true, they would’t and couldn’t abandon it.

Although I never “left” the Church, I often struggle/d with a huge amount of incredulity.

It’s not that people don’t want to believe, or don’t try - but that they literally find it impossible to believe that some of the things the Church teaches are true.

Some people are more doubtful, more inquisitive, more skeptical, more intelligent, more negative than others. I think faith in what the Church teaches comes more easily to some.

 

[EasterJoy]

This is an interesting discussion. What responsibility can I take for the Mass? If I participate in the Mass, say all the prayers, sing all the hymns, pray at the appropriate times, does that overcome the screeching lector or the priest who can’t preach?

If you say it’s all internal and I get out what I put into it, then we are accepting mediocrity in our worship.

In the context of this thread, I am putting forth that two reason people leave the Church are treatment by clergy/staff and uninspired worship. The clergy part is not all the clergys’ fault - sometimes people find themselves in situations where there is no easy answer. The worship is totally within the control of the clergy.

I did not ever say it is all internal, nor that you get out what you put into it. I absolutely never said you ought to accept mediocrity in worship. No, I said that what the Church is and does is not a product. It is a life, a shared life, and realizing that makes all the difference.

I absolutely do not believe that the worship is “totally within the control of the clergy”. Oh, how many priests might only wish this were so! You may as well say that all a school needs is good teachers, and it will succeed. If the students will not do homework, only show up when they feel like it, and the parents expect their children to learn without doing any work or even attending regularly, then it does not matter how good the teachers are. Of course a teacher makes a big difference in how engaged the students are, and of course the pastor makes a big difference in his parish, but if he is working with a flock that is minimally engaged, there is a limit to how much life he can breathe into stones who don’t believe that breathing is their work. That is why the misconception that the Church is a product is so damaging. It causes the same problems as the misconception that an education is a product. Both are instead a transformation, and there is a big difference.

Even if the Church were a product, it would not be a product entirely within the control of the clergy. Everyone has to believe that they are vital to the worship of everyone else around them, not just himself or herself, and the idea that only the priest and perhaps the choir has to be concerned with the assembly as a whole works against that. Anyone who knows how any five-star organization works can tell you that. No, the whole point of going to Mass is to be made one with every other person there, united in the death and resurrection of Christ, and to be sent forth to bring the Kingdom of God into a world broken by suffering and sin. If you won’t buy into that, go to any denomination you want, and they won’t be able to do a thing with you.

This is like the question I used to pose to my students in catechism: In the story of the Prodigal Son, with the wealthy father who had many servants, why did those boys of his have to work at all? Because the work would not get done without them? No, the father could get the work done. He was rich, he had many servants, he could have gotten the work done. Those boys were working on the estates of their father because only by doing the father’s work in the world could they become like him. That parable applies to this question of why people leave the faith. People leave the faith, sometimes staying in the pews and sometimes leaving, because they don’t understand why they are where they are or doing what they are doing in the first place. They have a “what is this doing for me” attitude, or else they have a “I’m here to earn my keep” attitude. Neither attitude is transformative, and transformation and conversion are what the faith is all about.

 

[PaulinVA]

Easter Joy, I normally enjoy conversing with you, but I am going to cut it short for now. Maybe I’m in a bad place. My wife and I are unhappy in our parish. My dad is in a hospice facility in another state and I am just waiting for the call that he has passed. I was able to see him and talk to him before he lost consciousness, but it is really hard. I think it’s affecting my posts, so I will let this go and reflect on what you’ve written.

 

[EasterJoy]

Easter Joy, I normally enjoy conversing with you, but I am going to cut it short for now. Maybe I’m in a bad place. My wife and I are unhappy in our parish. My dad is in a hospice facility in another state and I am just waiting for the call that he has passed. I was able to see him and talk to him before he lost consciousness, but it is really hard. I think it’s affecting my posts, so I will let this go and reflect on what you’ve written.

Maybe this will help: Your parish does not owe you its best like a restaurant owes you its best. That is treating the life of a parish like a product. Your parish owes you its best like the same chef who owns the restaurant owes his family the best when he cooks for them. What is at a restaurant, that is like a concert. What is at the chef’s home, that is like worship. That is an event of intimate relationship, of love. Everyone cooks, everyone brings their best, because it is family, and those who have the most to give of course make the biggest difference. Of course the pastor has a position that demands more than everyone else, but not because he is a proprietor. It is because he is a pastor, a shepherd, a man who has put his whole life aside for this relationship with the people of God. The standards are actually higher, because a work of love deserves more than a work of commerce, more from everyone, both those who come and those who are in the position of hosting, but the way we look at it is different, because what we do is not ultimately about “the food,” but about being family for each other and gathering to express love. If the chef is a terrible cook, but you love him and he obviously loves you, that counts for something, too. You hope he works on getting better, but it is the relationship that counts. The difference is that in worship it is not just about our relationship with each other, but how we join together and are joined to Christ and allow Christ to bury us in Himself and offer us to God. Holding back by offering something inferior when we are capable of better is not an option, not when we realize what it is that we are doing.

Does that make sense?

 

[Luke6_37]

Maybe this will help: Your parish does not owe you its best like a restaurant owes you its best. That is treating the life of a parish like a product. Your parish owes you its best like the same chef who owns the restaurant owes his family the best when he cooks for them. What is at a restaurant, that is like a concert. What is at the chef’s home, that is like worship. That is an event of intimate relationship, of love. Everyone cooks, everyone brings their best, because it is family, and those who have the most to give of course make the biggest difference. Of course the pastor has a position that demands more than everyone else, but not because he is a proprietor. It is because he is a pastor, a shepherd, a man who has put his whole life aside for this relationship with the people of God. The standards are actually higher, because a work of love deserves more than a work of commerce, more from everyone, both those who come and those who are in the position of hosting, but the way we look at it is different, because what we do is not ultimately about “the food,” but about being family for each other and gathering to express love. If the chef is a terrible cook, but you love him and he obviously loves you, that counts for something, too. You hope he works on getting better, but it is the relationship that counts. The difference is that in worship it is not just about our relationship with each other, but how we join together and are joined to Christ and allow Christ to bury us in Himself and offer us to God. Holding back by offering something inferior when we are capable of better is not an option, not when we realize what it is that we are doing.

Does that make sense?

I like your analogy - except that the food we get at Mass is really what it IS ultimately all about!

I do see a lot of the consumer mentality when it comes to the faith. In the past, when something was broken or didn’t work well, people would try to fix it. Today, they just throw it away and look for a better or newer model. I think that happens a lot with the faith.

 

[EasterJoy]

I like your analogy - except that the food we get at Mass is really what it IS ultimately all about!

I do see a lot of the consumer mentality when it comes to the faith. In the past, when something was broken or didn’t work well, people would try to fix it. Today, they just throw it away and look for a better or newer model. I think that happens a lot with the faith.

The Mass is beyond analogy. We are offered with Christ when He offers Himself, being hidden as we are in Him by baptism, by which “not I, but Christ lives within me.”

Archbishop Sample put it this way: "…I have to believe that if we truly understood what was happening during the celebration of Mass and if we truly believed that, there is no way we could ever be bored at Mass, nor could we dare say that we get nothing out of it. What I maintain for you is that we have to understand the Mass both as a sacrifice and as a sacred banquet, because I will tell you: If we do not understand the Mass, the Holy Eucharist, as a sacrifice, we truly do not understand the Mass at all.”

By the same token, there is no way that if we truly understand the Mass that we’ll ever be satisfied with anything but excellence in our churches and in our worship. I don’t mean an unmerciful letter-of-the-law excellence, but the desire we all have to bring the best to someone we love and feel grateful to without reserve. We would have the ardor for excellence that lovers have. Lukewarm love or forgetfulness about what we are about because we’re preoccupied with something less important will lead to lukewarm liturgies.

 

[Et_Cetera]

For me, it was mostly about the focus on archaic rituals and the lack of adaptation to the modern world, the constant putting down of people who choose to live their lives differently, the putting down of homosexuals and the lack of tolerance for them, etc. The Bible is filled with contradictions, women are still treated by some Catholics like second class citizens who should stay in the home. Rules on sex and birth control are outdated, unrealistic, and made by men who don’t even have to deal with these issues in a real world way.

One of the biggest factors is the absurd tie with the GOP, who holds beliefs that seemingly contradict Christianity at every turn, but look at this site, if you took “Catholic” out of the name and went to the World News section, many would mistake it for a Republican forum. The less fortunate are put down, called lazy, and expected to go without any little luxuries. The compassion for the poor is ending as the GOP ties strengthen. People care more about their personal gun ownership “rights” than they do about the massive issue of gun violence in America and about the children who have died in their own schools as the result of this country’s fascination with keeping the gun laws so unrestricted.

People constantly talk about being “pro-life” but I only see this as being “pro-birth” due to GOP convincing people that government programs to help poor, single mothers go against their personal rights to keep everything they make. It’s this attitude of how dare the government make me give to the less fortunate? Well, if you’re going to take that route, then how dare the government tell women they can’t get abortions? This faith, particularly when you factor in the GOP worship, is filled with contradictions. Selfishness is creeping in, and even when the new Pope talks about wealth inequality and the problems of unfettered capitalism, so many Catholics go crazy, like they don’t remember the teachings of Jesus Himself.

I prefer a simpler way of living that focuses on trying to help others as much as I can and trying to make the world a better place without getting so caught up in archaic rules that I lose sight of the big picture. I’m not trying to talk others out of leaving the faith (as I realize that is against forum rules), but for me personally it has been a breath of fresh air, and I feel happier with myself. I feel like I can be a better person without the strict adherence.

 

[mummato2]

I think you can take all the reasons people leave and boil them down to one thing: Those who leave don’t believe that the Church’s teachings are true.

If they thought what the Church thought was true, they would’t and couldn’t abandon it.

Although I never “left” the Church, I often struggle/d with a huge amount of incredulity.

It’s not that people don’t want to believe, or don’t try - but that they literally find it impossible to believe that some of the things the Church teaches are true.

Some people are more doubtful, more inquisitive, more skeptical, more intelligent, more negative than others. I think faith in what the Church teaches comes more easily to some.

I won’t speak for others, but this is exactly why I left.

Last June I went on a 5 week tour of Italy, Greece, Turkey, Israel, Jordan and Egypt following the footsteps of Paul and Jesus. My husband was supportive and took care of our small kids while I took this time to immerse myself in the bible and pray.

I did so much sole searching and I have definitely decided Catholicism is not for me. There are too many questions that my priest couldn’t answer and I am not convinced that followong a faith “blindly” is right for me.

I can’t be part of a church I don’t believe in but I haven’t joined another. Now I am reading on my own and working my way through life without a church or denomination.

My kids still attend a catholic school but I am careful to balance their teaching and will allow them to decide when they’re older.

 

[Et_Cetera]

I think you can take all the reasons people leave and boil them down to one thing: Those who leave don’t believe that the Church’s teachings are true.

If they thought what the Church thought was true, they would’t and couldn’t abandon it.

Although I never “left” the Church, I often struggle/d with a huge amount of incredulity.

It’s not that people don’t want to believe, or don’t try - but that they literally find it impossible to believe that some of the things the Church teaches are true.

Some people are more doubtful, more inquisitive, more skeptical, more intelligent, more negative than others. I think faith in what the Church teaches comes more easily to some.

This is a really good post, and you’re right. I don’t believe that the teachings are true. I am scientific; I could not make myself believe these teachings even if I wanted to.

 

[EasterJoy]

This is a really good post, and you’re right. I don’t believe that the teachings are true. I am scientific; I could not make myself believe these teachings even if I wanted to.

I’m scientific. I find it impossible to believe there aren’t many truths that are beyond measurement, as many things that we currently know to be true cannot be reproduced on demand and many things we can demonstrate now could not have been demonstrated just 200 years ago. That is a mere blink in time. Even now, we have theories about how things happen, but we can’t make a star. We do not have the length of life or the scope of influence required to truly put the physical universe to real tests. Systems in which the variables can be controlled by beings as limited as we are–these are actually rather rare, in the big picture.

To my mind, it seems most realistic to believe that to be so self-identified with “science” that one is only willing to believe those things that are subject to testing by the scientific method as it exists today leaves one very vulnerable to refusing to believe many things that are true, and probably (logically speaking), the most momentous things. How can you test what is beyond your imagining? This leads me to conclude that to restrict myself to provable things will unnecessarily confine me to agnosticism, like it or not. Give up a relationship for God in exchange for that? Not on your life.

(Sorry for all of that, but having a PhD in a hard science and having someone else tell me they are “too scientific” to have a religious belief gets under my skin. It essentially says that scientists who do believe in God are somehow not “scientific” enough. Hrrrph.)

 

[WilT]

This is an interesting discussion. What responsibility can I take for the Mass? If I participate in the Mass, say all the prayers, sing all the hymns, pray at the appropriate times, does that overcome the screeching lector or the priest who can’t preach?

PaulinVA We should not focus on things other than the Mass especially in the Liturgy and Eucharist. ALL OTHER THINGS ARE DISTRACTORS! If you follow this, all Masses are Glorious.
Prayers to you family during these sad times.

 

[Lost_Wanderer]

I could not make myself believe these teachings even if I wanted to.

I’m the opposite in my rejections. I don’t believe, not because I can’t make myself but I simply don’t want to anymore. I used to believe that sacrificing personal happiness for the sake of God’s will was ultimately the rule of the universe.

But when I looked back at my life and what I used to be because I believed that, I only saw what was essentially a bitter douchebag living in denial. Oh but for the Church, my personal desires don’t matter. Only God’s. What am I to do with an institution that believes their version of ‘God’ knows what I want better than I do?

People tell me to completely have utter faith in God.

I used that so I could have zero faith in myself.

That’s why I’m not ashamed to say I’ve stopped believing in some things because I just don’t want to anymore. I am done sacrificing my own personal happiness. I’ve only hurt too many people that way and helped those I should never have.

 

[Emily2014]

I’m the opposite in my rejections. I don’t believe, not because I can’t make myself but I simply don’t want to anymore. I used to believe that sacrificing personal happiness for the sake of God’s will was ultimately the rule of the universe.

But when I looked back at my life and what I used to be because I believed that, I only saw what was essentially a bitter douchebag living in denial. Oh but for the Church, my personal desires don’t matter. Only God’s. What am I to do with an institution that believes their version of ‘God’ knows what I want better than I do?

People tell me to completely have utter faith in God.

I used that so I could have zero faith in myself.

That’s why I’m not ashamed to say I’ve stopped believing in some things because I just don’t want to anymore. I am done sacrificing my own personal happiness. I’ve only hurt too many people that way and helped those I should never have.

I’m intrigued that a Forum Master is expressing such obviously heartfelt views and would very respectfully love to know more - please.

 

[mummato2]

This topic has had me think about the reasons I left. Lost Wanderer’s post hit some big home truths.

in a nutshell, the Catholic Church (and community I was involved with) were very focused on"doing it right". Hung up on rules, open intolerance to people deemed not worthy (homosexuals, divorcees etc) that I saw it become less Christ like.

the focus on (what I believe are) rituals that shouldn’t matter and much judgment that has no place other than with Jesus took away from the reason we are Christian.

The more I searched for the “right” denomination, the more I realised how similar they all are in 1 thing - they each have a brand they’re selling. A prophet, a particular focus on a biblical act, a way to worship etc - yet one thing i noticed was a church who had a totally wrong focus.

 

[Et_Cetera]

I’m scientific. I find it impossible to believe there aren’t many truths that are beyond measurement, as many things that we currently know to be true cannot be reproduced on demand and many things we can demonstrate now could not have been demonstrated just 200 years ago. That is a mere blink in time. Even now, we have theories about how things happen, but we can’t make a star. We do not have the length of life or the scope of influence required to truly put the physical universe to real tests. Systems in which the variables can be controlled by beings as limited as we are–these are actually rather rare, in the big picture.

To my mind, it seems most realistic to believe that to be so self-identified with “science” that one is only willing to believe those things that are subject to testing by the scientific method as it exists today leaves one very vulnerable to refusing to believe many things that are true, and probably (logically speaking), the most momentous things. How can you test what is beyond your imagining? This leads me to conclude that to restrict myself to provable things will unnecessarily confine me to agnosticism, like it or not. Give up a relationship for God in exchange for that? Not on your life.

(Sorry for all of that, but having a PhD in a hard science and having someone else tell me they are “too scientific” to have a religious belief gets under my skin. It essentially says that scientists who do believe in God are somehow not “scientific” enough. Hrrrph.)

No offense, but I’ll have my doctorate in 1.5 years as well. I wasn’t making a comment about you a scientist, but rather about myself. The RCC doesn’t add up to me; it’s full of contradictions. I feel like I am better and happier human being without it. I feel like I treat others better and care more about making the world a better place. The Catholics in this thread seem to want to take it all so personally when those who have left are saying these things.

I should also add that I think Jesus had many wonderful teachings (the same with Buddha). I think that I can follow the heart of the message of Jesus more easily without the RCC hang ups.

 

[Et_Cetera]

Also, as I skim through this thread, I see so many people giving their reasons for why they think people leave the Church–they want to sin, they’re self important, they don’t want to make sacrifices–and it comes off as arrogant. I see a lot of arrogance from Church members. I got really tired of dealing with that as well.

 

[Richard_White]

I think that I can follow the heart of the message of Jesus more easily without the RCC hang ups.

Who do you think preserved the message of Jesus for you to follow in the first place? The Catholic Church. Without her, you would not have the message of Jesus to even know about, let alone follow in the proper manner. The Catholic Church was founded by God Himself to preserve His Word in the Bible, to preserve the teachings of His Son, Jesus, and to spread them throughout the world. Without it, we would have nothing and, just like the human beings who were without the Ark, we would swept up in the evils of the world.

Just some thoughts to ponder.

May God bless you and lead you back into the Truths of Catholicism!

 

[Emily2014]

Who do you think preserved the message of Jesus for you to follow in the first place? The Catholic Church. Without her, you would not have the message of Jesus to even know about, let alone follow in the proper manner. The Catholic Church was founded by God Himself to preserve His Word in the Bible, to preserve the teachings of His Son, Jesus, and to spread them throughout the world. Without it, we would have nothing and, just like the human beings who were without the Ark, we would swept up in the evils of the world)

Do you therefore dismiss those who follow other paths to salvation e.g. Jews, Buddhists, Muslims etc etc.? Where is the word Catholic cited in the Bible as God’s only true church?
Why do so many Catholics alienate people by insisting they are the only people who will be saved?