Why do people think that Catholics and Non-Catholic Christians in the United States are not being persecuted?

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Ummm…because we’re NOT being persecuted.🤷
One does not have to recourse to Biblical or Reformational times, or faraway places with funny names to find instances of genuine faith persecution. It happened just beyond living memory, within driving distance of US territory.

In the early 1900s, Revolutionary Mexico entered an antireligious phase. From 1924 to 1927, matters were so bad that a nationwide interdict over Mexico was proclaimed.

My Grandma remembered as a little girl going to Mass in basements because priests were in hiding. Were she still around, she could tell modern North Americans a thing or 3 about persecution.

ICXC NIKA
 
I am a practicing Catholic and I don’t believe that Catholics are :persecuted".

I think this idea is silly.
 
Where did this tangent come from? Surely you know that no FDA-approved forms of birth control cause abortions?
Nonsense. There is debate about whether Plan B causes abortions. Some say not, the manufacturer’s warning says it can. There’s no question that “Ella”, chemically similar to RU-486, can act as an abortifacient. Both the FDA and the manufacturer say so. Both are FDA-approved “forms of birth control” covered under Obamacare.
 
Nonsense. There is debate about whether Plan B causes abortions. Some say not, the manufacturer’s warning says it can. There’s no question that “Ella”, chemically similar to RU-486, can act as an abortifacient. Both the FDA and the manufacturer say so. Both are FDA-approved “forms of birth control” covered under Obamacare.
There is only a debate among hardcore anti-abortion activists who want to demonize all forms of birth control. There is no debate among science and medical experts.

everydayhealth.com/sexual-health/0607/morning-after-pills-contraception-or-abortion.aspx
 
There is only a debate among hardcore anti-abortion activists who want to demonize all forms of birth control. There is no debate among science and medical experts.

everydayhealth.com/sexual-health/0607/morning-after-pills-contraception-or-abortion.aspx
Calling people names (anti-abortion activists who want to demonize…) tells nobody anything except that some people bear animus toward others.

No. You can find all sorts of positions, arguments, tests, etc by all sorts of experts and asserted experts. Nevertheless, the manufacturer of both says both can cause abortion, and so does the FDA.

One may state one’s argument, but one cannot rightly claim there is no debate among science and medical experts because there is. Most of the debate concerns what, exactly, one considers an “abortion”. There are those who assert that preventing implantation, for example, is not an “abortion” because they don’t consider death and discarding of a fertilized but unimplated egg an “abortion”.

Numerous animal tests, including tests on primates amply demonstrate the abortifacient effect of Ella, and nobody denies that. Obviously, it’s problematic to do human testing for a number or reasons, ethical reasons among them. But establishing truly reliable controls with humans is problematic in itself.

There is no argument that “off label” use of Ella can cause abortions. “Off label” use can be inadvertent, though Planned Parenthood encourages off label use precisely in order to ensure abortion.

It may be that in the course of the Hobby Lobby case, the justices will take positions on whether Plan B and Ella are or are not or can be abortifacient. But one tends to doubt that.
 
Does this mean you WANT to pay for abortifacients?
You do realize that a provision law that says “pay a fine or pay for abortifacients” is highly immoral, but NOT persecution, right? Persecution is when a group is singled out and targeted. Christians are not the only people who are pro-life, and thus we are not being persecuted. If you want to see persecution, see the vandalism of churches that goes on in South America or violence against Christians for their faith in the Middle East.

Persecution means something highly specific, e.g. someone being targeted in any way specifically because they belong to a group. Immoral laws are not persecution unless they meet this standard. The HHS mandate does not meet this standard at all, as highly immoral as it is.

Also, needless to say, when the pretend “War on Christmas” is the biggest call of persecution by Christians every year in the US, the rest of the world rolls their eyes and laughs behind our backs. Let’s not get all wound up about persecution that doesn’t exist, when we could instead be much more effective merely discussing the immorality of the laws themselves.
 
I know your talking about the US, but here in England I am free to attend Mass,go to a coffee shop after Mass with my son, buy Catholic books and practice my faith without being kidnapped,imprisoned, burnt or being beheaded for my belief. I take it, it is the same in the US. Persecution? Come on now…puhleees!:rolleyes:
 
You do realize that a provision law that says “pay a fine or pay for abortifacients” is highly immoral, but NOT persecution, right? Persecution is when a group is singled out and targeted. Christians are not the only people who are pro-life, and thus we are not being persecuted. If you want to see persecution, see the vandalism of churches that goes on in South America or violence against Christians for their faith in the Middle East.

Persecution means something highly specific, e.g. someone being targeted in any way specifically because they belong to a group. Immoral laws are not persecution unless they meet this standard. The HHS mandate does not meet this standard at all, as highly immoral as it is.

Also, needless to say, when the pretend “War on Christmas” is the biggest call of persecution by Christians every year in the US, the rest of the world rolls their eyes and laughs behind our backs. Let’s not get all wound up about persecution that doesn’t exist, when we could instead be much more effective merely discussing the immorality of the laws themselves.
I am not one who argues about a “War on Christmas”. I do not demand that it be a public event, though I am at least a bit uneasy about any movement that seeks to chip away at western culture in any way. But it’s not Christmas specific.

But I think you are mistaken in saying one simply pays a fine or pays for abortifacients, as if they were somehow equivalent. They aren’t, by a long, long way. The potential fines for failing to comply with Obamacare are, with organizations having more than 50 employees are potentially ruinous even to large organizations. They can be very severe, running into millions of dollars for some.

But in determining whether something is or is not “religious persecution”, one has to look at who it affects and why that effect is important to the government to enforce it with what can be truly draconian measures. When it comes to being complicit in supplying abortifacients, and to a lesser degree contraceptives, one has to look at who it affects negatively, and the evident intent of the enforcer.

One may ask why, for example, it’s important for the government to force organizations like Little Sisters of the Poor to do something the government knew all along would be contrary to their religious principles, and which benefits their workers so little? Possibly a better example would be the Sisters of Life, whose workers are almost exclusively themselves. Yet, there are more than 50 of them, so they are forced to provide abortifacient coverage for THEMSELVES or do without healthcare coverage entirely and pay huge fines besides; fines they can’t possibly pay. And for what? So some sexually active person they hire is saved $8.00/month?

This administration knew going in that they would have effects like that. Efforts were made to amliorate the effect; to create exceptions. And yet, knowing all along that they would have the effect they have, they defined religious organization exceptions so narrowly that almost none can qualify for the exception.

People who have harmful intent rarely announce that they do. Rather, they tailor what they do to affect whom they wish, without ever admitting that’s what they intend. And when they act with almost surgical precision to affect a particular group almost exclusively, one is not excessively suspicious to conclude that affecting that group all along was, indeed, the intent. Lawsuits (particularly civil rights suits) and criminal prosecutions requiring intent are won on far less basis than the acts of this administration in tailoring the abortifacient and contraceptive mandates that “just happen” to affect particular groups with so little “scatter” among others, and then so adamantly refusing to widen them beyond a near total mandate.

I think I heard someone say that the Supreme Court has previously applied a test in religious freedom cases that goes something like this: That the state has to prove a compelling state interest to justify forcing a violation of religious freedom. If so, then it does not seem to me that there can really be said to be a compelling state interest in providing free, though inexpensive, birth control and abortifacients to the employees of a limited group when it is totally clear that it forces a violation of religious conviction and particularly when the government has other ways of ensuring that rather limited societal “benefit”.

No telling what the Court will do with Hobby Lobby, but I think the Little Sisters of the Poor case is a much clearer example of something the government should never force people to do.
 
You do realize that a provision law that says “pay a fine or pay for abortifacients” is highly immoral, but NOT persecution, right? Persecution is when a group is singled out and targeted. Christians are not the only people who are pro-life, and thus we are not being persecuted. If you want to see persecution, see the vandalism of churches that goes on in South America or violence against Christians for their faith in the Middle East.

Persecution means something highly specific, e.g. someone being targeted in any way specifically because they belong to a group. Immoral laws are not persecution unless they meet this standard. The HHS mandate does not meet this standard at all, as highly immoral as it is.

Also, needless to say, when the pretend “War on Christmas” is the biggest call of persecution by Christians every year in the US, the rest of the world rolls their eyes and laughs behind our backs. Let’s not get all wound up about persecution that doesn’t exist, when we could instead be much more effective merely discussing the immorality of the laws themselves.
I am not one who argues about a “War on Christmas”. I do not demand that it be a public event, though I am at least a bit uneasy about any movement that seeks to chip away at western culture in any way. But it’s not Christmas specific.

But I think you are mistaken in saying one simply pays a fine or pays for abortifacients, as if they were somehow equivalent. They aren’t, by a long, long way. The potential fines for failing to comply with Obamacare are, with organizations having more than 50 employees are potentially ruinous even to large organizations. They can be very severe, running into millions of dollars for some.

But in determining whether something is or is not “religious persecution”, one has to look at who it affects and why that effect is important to the government to enforce it with what can be truly draconian measures. When it comes to being complicit in supplying abortifacients, and to a lesser degree contraceptives, one has to look at who it affects negatively, and the evident intent of the enforcer.

One may ask why, for example, it’s important for the government to force organizations like Little Sisters of the Poor to do something the government knew all along would be contrary to their religious principles, and which benefits their workers so little? Possibly a better example would be the Sisters of Life, whose workers are almost exclusively themselves. Yet, there are more than 50 of them, so they are forced to provide abortifacient coverage for THEMSELVES or do without healthcare coverage entirely and pay huge fines besides; fines they can’t possibly pay. And for what? So some sexually active person they hire is saved $8.00/month?

This administration knew going in that they would have effects like that. Efforts were made to amliorate the effect; to create exceptions. And yet, knowing all along that they would have the effect they have, they defined religious organization exceptions so narrowly that almost none can qualify for the exception.

People who have harmful intent rarely announce that they do. Rather, they tailor what they do to affect whom they wish, without ever admitting that’s what they intend. And when they act with almost surgical precision to affect a particular group almost exclusively, one is not excessively suspicious to conclude that affecting that group all along was, indeed, the intent. Lawsuits (particularly civil rights suits) and criminal prosecutions requiring intent are won on far less basis than the acts of this administration in tailoring the abortifacient and contraceptive mandates that “just happen” to affect particular groups with so little “scatter” among others, and then so adamantly refusing to widen them beyond a near total mandate.

I think I heard someone say that the Supreme Court has previously applied a test in religious freedom cases that goes something like this: That the state has to prove a compelling state interest to justify forcing a violation of religious freedom. If so, then it does not seem to me that there can really be said to be a compelling state interest in providing free, though inexpensive, birth control and abortifacients to the employees of a limited group when it is totally clear that it forces a violation of religious conviction and particularly when the government has other ways of ensuring that rather limited societal “benefit”.

No telling what the Court will do with Hobby Lobby, but I think the Little Sisters of the Poor case is a much clearer example of something the government should never force religious organizations to do.
 
I know your talking about the US, but here in England I am free to attend Mass,go to a coffee shop after Mass with my son, buy Catholic books and practice my faith without being kidnapped,imprisoned, burnt or being beheaded for my belief. I take it, it is the same in the US. Persecution? Come on now…puhleees!:rolleyes:
You are arguing that degree determines the nature of the action. I don’t think that’s valid. If I do not beat you up or burn your house or shoot your dog, but perhaps occasionally call you up at night and remain silent on the line or emit an ominous laugh and hang up, I don’t think you would say I was not persecuting you.

I don’t remember this myself, but my father told me that now and then the KKK would march in the city in which i live. Everybody knew what that meant; what its intent was. Possibly, since they did not then hang someone or burn his house for being Catholic, one might stretch that to mean Catholics were not “persecuted” by such actions. But one could not possibly experience it as anything else.

And, after all, was simply making Jews wear a star on their sleeves really persecution? Those stars weighed so little, after all.

And so Catholic organizations are told they must violate their religious principles or basically disband because they can’t possibly pay the fines. It’s not burning them at the stake, and that’s true, but it really can’t be correctly called anything other than persecution.
 
You are arguing that degree determines the nature of the action. I don’t think that’s valid. If I do not beat you up or burn your house or shoot your dog, but perhaps occasionally call you up at night and remain silent on the line or emit an ominous laugh and hang up, I don’t think you would say I was not persecuting you.

I don’t remember this myself, but my father told me that now and then the KKK would march in the city in which i live. Everybody knew what that meant; what its intent was. Possibly, since they did not then hang someone or burn his house for being Catholic, one might stretch that to mean Catholics were not “persecuted” by such actions. But one could not possibly experience it as anything else.

And, after all, was simply making Jews wear a star on their sleeves really persecution? Those stars weighed so little, after all.

And so Catholic organizations are told they must violate their religious principles or basically disband because they can’t possibly pay the fines. It’s not burning them at the stake, and that’s true, but it really can’t be correctly called anything other than persecution.
I stand by what I said. I will just agree to disagree with you.
 
A question for you, Ridgerunner: Suppose I founded a religion that decries the payment of taxes as sinful. Would the government be persecuting the members of my church by forcing them to pay taxes?
 
A question for you, Ridgerunner: Suppose I founded a religion that decries the payment of taxes as sinful. Would the government be persecuting the members of my church by forcing them to pay taxes?
Of course. Governments “persecute” of their very nature inasmuch as they compel obedience and punish disobedience by force, including ultimate force.

But that’s not the real question here. The real question is in two parts.

First, is the government acting immorally in doing what it does so that I might morally resist it with whatever moral means I have to hand? But that’s not what you’re talking about, I don’t think.

Second, and perhaps more to your question, is the government acting within the parameters of its “social compact” in doing what it does? I think we can agree that the “social compact” of the U.S. is, or is supposed to be, the Constitution. As I understand the interpretations put to the First Amendment, (and a legal scholar can correct me if I’m wrong) the question is whether there is a legitimate, compelling state interest in obtaining revenue from its citizens which overbalances the right of religious freedom of your sect members.

Now, if the nation is, say, blessed with superabundant oil revenues (like Kuwait, for instance) one might say the state’s insistence on collecting entirely unnecessary revenues from the populace just to do it, is not a legitimate and compelling state interest in forcing your sect members to pay taxes. But as we know, governments cannot function in even the most desperately necessary ways without revenue, and mostly it is collected from the populace because there’s no other sufficient resource.

It may be instructive that even during Prohibition, when all possession and consumption of alcoholic beverages was banned, an exception was made for wine used in religious practice, like the wine used at Mass. Why? On the one hand, prohibiting it would be an obvious “persecution” of the religious believers for whom it was highly important, just as it was a “persecution” of people who wanted to drink or sell liquor. On the other hand, the real objective of the law was to eliminate drunkenness and all the evils that can attend it. The use of wine in Mass was such a trivial exception (despite the fact that priests might overindulge in the rectories, and quite possibly did) that there was deemed to be no compelling state purpose in NOT excepting that use.

Obviously, the Obama administration of today has a rather more intolerant attitude toward Catholic teaching and practice than did the “blue nose” protestants who enacted Prohibition long ago. But it is, or is supposed to be, the purpose of the courts to prevent such overreaching of Constitutional freedoms by those in power. We’ll see what they do.
 
You do realize that a provision law that says “pay a fine or pay for abortifacients” is highly immoral, but NOT persecution, right? Persecution is when a group is singled out and targeted. Christians are not the only people who are pro-life, and thus we are not being persecuted. If you want to see persecution, see the vandalism of churches that goes on in South America or violence against Christians for their faith in the Middle East.

Persecution means something highly specific, e.g. someone being targeted in any way specifically because they belong to a group. Immoral laws are not persecution unless they meet this standard. The HHS mandate does not meet this standard at all, as highly immoral as it is.

Also, needless to say, when the pretend “War on Christmas” is the biggest call of persecution by Christians every year in the US, the rest of the world rolls their eyes and laughs behind our backs. Let’s not get all wound up about persecution that doesn’t exist, when we could instead be much more effective merely discussing the immorality of the laws themselves.
Your definition is inaccurate where did you get it?
according to the webster dictionary
harass or punish in a manner designed to injure, grieve, or afflict; specifically : to cause to suffer because of belief
You don’t need to belong to a “group” to be persecuted. According to Webster than immoral laws are in deed persecution.
 
The U.S. government has been hostile to religion at various periods in the past. But the current administration is more hostile to religion in general and to Catholicism in particular than at anytime in the past 100 years. There is simply no reason to force Catholic institutions out of business for the sake of the HHS mandate other than hostility to religion.
 
The U.S. government has been hostile to religion at various periods in the past. But the current administration is more hostile to religion in general and to Catholicism in particular than at anytime in the past 100 years. There is simply no reason to force Catholic institutions out of business for the sake of the HHS mandate other than hostility to religion.
Exactimundo.

Some will roll over for the government and play dead, just as Big Boss/Big Nanny O wants you to. . .

all this federal nonsense—and unconstitutionality—smells to high heaven. I’m tired of the executive branch imposing its morality.
 
One does not have to recourse to Biblical or Reformational times, or faraway places with funny names to find instances of genuine faith persecution. It happened just beyond living memory, within driving distance of US territory.

In the early 1900s, Revolutionary Mexico entered an antireligious phase. From 1924 to 1927, matters were so bad that a nationwide interdict over Mexico was proclaimed.

My Grandma remembered as a little girl going to Mass in basements because priests were in hiding. Were she still around, she could tell modern North Americans a thing or 3 about persecution.

ICXC NIKA
Yes, well it’s not the early 1900’s, this isn’t Mexico and no one is having to attend Meeting in secret in someone’s basement.🤷

Don’t think what happened in Mexico in the 20th century has anything to do with so-called “persecution” in 21st century America.
 
I would not call this persecution, particularly when compared to what the Church in the rest of the world is going through. But Christian culture is being dismantled (largely with the help of Christians themselves), and the intellectual foundation for the justification of future persecution is being laid.

People will scoff at this “paranoia” right up until they’re on one end or another of the rifle. But it IS coming.
 
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