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thelovelyone
Guest
The deuterocanonical books aren’t scripture?
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adamhovey1988
Guest
They aren’t seven extra books, they’re seven books that belong in the Bible that people don’t have. Some people mistakenly believe that they were added at the Council of Trent, but that doesn’t make sense if you look at a Gutenberg Bible.
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BartholomewB
Guest
There is no single reason. These books are not in the Jewish canon, but for different reasons. Tobit, for instance, because it was judged to be theologically incorrect, but 2 Maccabees, and possibly others, simply because they were originally written in Greek, not Hebrew.
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TheLittleLady
Guest
Where were you taught this?
po18guy
Well-known member
Ah, Trent. What confuses the casual critic of the Church is that when she takes such action, it is primarily against heresy. And, in the 1500s, there was a major heresy afoot. By the power of one (or three) men’s egos, holy writ was being disparaged. That could not stand without permanent correction.
As to the books in question:
As to the books in question:
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JohnR77
Guest
This is a good topic for discussion.
And obviously we will discuss the standards by how we measure what is
Sacred Scripture,
The Canon,
the list of books that be long in Sacred Scripture.
But before we get to the 2nd logical step let us Begin with the 1st step in our logical discussion.
Who or what is the authority that determines the standards by which we measure the books ?
.
John
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JohnR77
Guest
And we need to discuss who or what is the authority who determines How many books are in the New Testament ?
Who is the authority that gives us the standards by which we Measure which books belong in the New Testament ?
John
Who is the authority that gives us the standards by which we Measure which books belong in the New Testament ?
John
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thelovelyone
Guest
Well in a way yes. But now I think that they are scripture, but I was confused on why people didn’t think that they were.
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thelovelyone
Guest
Oh I mean by Protestants. Now I think that they are scripture but I was confused on why Protestants think that they aren’t.
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YHWH_Christ
Guest
What about the other books that also belong, like 3 and 4 Maccabees as well as 1 Esdras? I don’t see those in the Catholic canon.
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thelovelyone
Guest
Good point I have chapters of the apocrypha in my bible that aren’t in the Catholic canon.
For example, the Prayer of Manasseh and Psalm 151.
For example, the Prayer of Manasseh and Psalm 151.
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KMC
Guest
There is no definitive “Jewish canon”. The Pharisees had their list of scrolls, the Sadducees had only the Torah, Essenes another list…etc.
While I admittedly need to learn about the differences between the Catholic canon and the Orthodox canon, there really isn’t any good reasons for the Protestants to have removed the 7 deuterocanonical books, especially given their adherence to Sola Scriptura.
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BartholomewB
Guest
Oh yes there is! Please take a look at these posts on another recent thread:
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KMC
Guest
Help me understand what you are calling a “Jewish Canon”?
If, for example, Pharisees and Sadducees are both Jewish sects, and they have different canons, then how is there a definitive one? The Greek speaking Jews that developed the Septuagint found the deuterocanonical books to be inspired…the Hebrew speaking Jews do not.
So I need to understand your definition of “Jewish Canon” and which group of Jews you are referencing
If, for example, Pharisees and Sadducees are both Jewish sects, and they have different canons, then how is there a definitive one? The Greek speaking Jews that developed the Septuagint found the deuterocanonical books to be inspired…the Hebrew speaking Jews do not.
So I need to understand your definition of “Jewish Canon” and which group of Jews you are referencing
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CRM_Brother
Guest
These books came to popularity through a mistake. They were never part of the Christian view of Scripture.
Throughout much of the Christian world, the Old Testament was officially agreed upon by the late 4th century. While some local Churches focused their liturgies upon a smaller canonical list, the full Catholic Canon was endorsed in 381 in the First Council of Constantinople in their endorsement of certain local canons. The problem with many of the apocryphal books came about from St. Jerome’s confusion.
In 382, Pope Damasus I held the Council of Rome to officially confirm the Church of Rome’s biblical canon as encompassing all of the books endorsed in the First Council of Constantinople. We know what this list was composed of because it survived in somewhat a round-about manner. Later, Pope Gelasius sent out a decree to all other local Churches under Rome’s authority which contained this list. One French monk was sent to his local bishop to copy the list for his monastery. It is the French scribe’s copy which survives.
After the Council of Rome, Pope Damasus commissioned St. Jerome to translate the books of the agreed canon from both Greek and old Latin into the current vernacular Latin dialect so that more people in the West could understand them. He had only finished the Gospels and part of the Psalms when Pope Damasus died and one of Jerome’s political rivals was elected to the papacy, Pope Siricius.
Jerome, in an effort to avoid confrontation with the new Pope, moved to Jerusalem and continued his translation at the Church of the Holy Sepulcher. He brought the original Damasine list of canon given at the Council of Rome with him. Unfortunately, however, the list was a little vague. For example, 1st and 2nd Maccabees was written: “Of Maccabees, two books”. We only know which two books they were speaking of from later explanation of the Council Fathers, but these clarifications weren’t available to Jerome.
To remedy this, he just translated everything he could find under the various titles: “Maccabbes”, “Chronicles” (this consisted of the four books which we now know as 1 and 2 Kings and 1 and 2 Chronicles), and “Esdras”. At Jerome’s death, his disciples just edited and bound his translations and sent them, not to the Pope for the final edit, but to many of the major dioceses throughout the West. While the bishops quickly realized that some of these books weren’t to be included in the Bible, they were still made available for study and spiritual reflection.
The case of Esdras can be kind of confusing. Technically, 1 Esdras is both the book of Ezra and Nehemiah. St. Jerome never translated 2 Esdras and was never included in any manuscripts. It is only 3 Esdras and 4 Esdras that is Apocryphal. This is where it gets confusing. When the King James version of the Bible was released, the translators renamed 1 Esdras, Ezra and Nehemiah, and included 3 and 4 Esdras as 1 and 2 Esdras in the appendix with the removed books of the Catholic Old Testament because they had a historical impact on spiritual meditation.
Throughout much of the Christian world, the Old Testament was officially agreed upon by the late 4th century. While some local Churches focused their liturgies upon a smaller canonical list, the full Catholic Canon was endorsed in 381 in the First Council of Constantinople in their endorsement of certain local canons. The problem with many of the apocryphal books came about from St. Jerome’s confusion.
In 382, Pope Damasus I held the Council of Rome to officially confirm the Church of Rome’s biblical canon as encompassing all of the books endorsed in the First Council of Constantinople. We know what this list was composed of because it survived in somewhat a round-about manner. Later, Pope Gelasius sent out a decree to all other local Churches under Rome’s authority which contained this list. One French monk was sent to his local bishop to copy the list for his monastery. It is the French scribe’s copy which survives.
After the Council of Rome, Pope Damasus commissioned St. Jerome to translate the books of the agreed canon from both Greek and old Latin into the current vernacular Latin dialect so that more people in the West could understand them. He had only finished the Gospels and part of the Psalms when Pope Damasus died and one of Jerome’s political rivals was elected to the papacy, Pope Siricius.
Jerome, in an effort to avoid confrontation with the new Pope, moved to Jerusalem and continued his translation at the Church of the Holy Sepulcher. He brought the original Damasine list of canon given at the Council of Rome with him. Unfortunately, however, the list was a little vague. For example, 1st and 2nd Maccabees was written: “Of Maccabees, two books”. We only know which two books they were speaking of from later explanation of the Council Fathers, but these clarifications weren’t available to Jerome.
To remedy this, he just translated everything he could find under the various titles: “Maccabbes”, “Chronicles” (this consisted of the four books which we now know as 1 and 2 Kings and 1 and 2 Chronicles), and “Esdras”. At Jerome’s death, his disciples just edited and bound his translations and sent them, not to the Pope for the final edit, but to many of the major dioceses throughout the West. While the bishops quickly realized that some of these books weren’t to be included in the Bible, they were still made available for study and spiritual reflection.
The case of Esdras can be kind of confusing. Technically, 1 Esdras is both the book of Ezra and Nehemiah. St. Jerome never translated 2 Esdras and was never included in any manuscripts. It is only 3 Esdras and 4 Esdras that is Apocryphal. This is where it gets confusing. When the King James version of the Bible was released, the translators renamed 1 Esdras, Ezra and Nehemiah, and included 3 and 4 Esdras as 1 and 2 Esdras in the appendix with the removed books of the Catholic Old Testament because they had a historical impact on spiritual meditation.
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BartholomewB
Guest
Did you read those two posts I linked to? In the second one, I listed all the books of the Hebrew Bible, the Tanakh, in their canonical order. That is what I am calling “the Jewish canon.” You will find further details in the Jewish Encyclopedia:
http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/3259-bible-canon
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CRM_Brother
Guest
There are three parts to the modern concept of the Jewish canon, known as Tanakh. The first two were set in stone long before the time of Christ. The Torah (first five books of the Bible) was finalized around the 6th Century BCE by the Jews after the Babylonian Captivity to preserve the Jews’ oral passing down of the contents from ever being lost, should there be another exile. These total five books.
The second part, the Nevi’im, consists of the Prophets. The first four books of the Nevi’im are the Former Prophets. These consist of the books of Joshu, Judges, Samuel (both books are taken together as a single work), and Kings (1 and 2 Kings are taken together as a single work). The last four books are the Latter Prophets: Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezekiel, and the Twelve Minor Prophets (Hosea, Joel, Amos, Obadiah, Jonah, Micah, Nahum, Habakkuk, Zephaniah, Haggai, Zechariah, and Malachi are taken together as a single work). The Nevi’im was universally accepted as canon by the time Alexander the Great ordered the Jewish Scriptures be translated and added to the Great Library of Alexandria in the mid 3rd century BCE.
The last part of the Jewish canon is known as the Ketuvim, the Writings. It is only some of the Ketuvim which was in contention among the Jewish factions at the time of Christ. The Ketuvim was broken up into three groups. The first group was the poetic books: Psalms, Proverbs and Job. The canonical regulation on these books were so strict that they had to be written in a special way and known as Sifrei Emet, the Documents of Truth. The second group is known as the Hamesh Megillot, the Five Scrolls (Song of Songs, Ruth, Lamentations, Ecclesiastes, and Esther). These too were deemed as canon and authoritative. The last three books which were agreed upon were Daniel, 1 Esdras (Ezra and Nehemiah) and Chronicles (both books together).
(1 of 2)
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CRM_Brother
Guest
(2 of 2)
When we say that these are the ‘Jewish canon’ we mean that these are just the books on which the Jewish people officially agree upon. The Ketuvim described above were those Writings which were universally accepted. The Ketuvim were also recognized as being a category open to growth. As such, various sects added different books to the Ketuvim.
By the turn of the 3rd century AD, the Jews considered their Scriptural canons closed. This text is known as the Masoretic Text. The process of the closing of the Hebrew Scripture began in 60 AD when the Sadducees convened the rabbis of Jerusalem in a Rabbinical Synod to combat the influence of Christian writings. The rabbis (where the Sadducees had a large majority) condemned the Gospels (at least Matthew’s lost Gospel to the Hebrews) and Paul’s writings. In addition to this, they condemned the Book of Wisdom because of it’s heavy use by Christians (which was so important that it was actually included in the first list of the New Testament).
Thirty years later in 90 AD, after the destruction of the Second Temple and the expulsion of the Jews from Jerusalem, the Pharisees convened another Rabinical Synod in Joppa to address the texts of the Scriptures. They, along with the remnants of the Sadducees who survived the destruction of the Temple, condemned the Christian writings and also extended this condemnation to Sirach, which the Christians had used to convert many Jews since the destruction of the Temple through Christ’s fulfillment of the messianic imagery found within the book. The Council decided that, from that point forward, Jews would only accept as Scripture those books of which copies from the Temple’s library still existed in Hebrew. The only books which fitted this restriction were the 24 books described above in the Tanakh. Slowly, it filtered out to other Jewish centers around the Mediterranean and by 200 AD, most of the other Jewish communities followed suit. The only exception was really the community in Egypt, who had built their own Temple in the years since the destruction of the Second Temple and continued to not only use a wide selection of Ketuvim but also used the Greek versions found in the Septuagint.
When we say that these are the ‘Jewish canon’ we mean that these are just the books on which the Jewish people officially agree upon. The Ketuvim described above were those Writings which were universally accepted. The Ketuvim were also recognized as being a category open to growth. As such, various sects added different books to the Ketuvim.
By the turn of the 3rd century AD, the Jews considered their Scriptural canons closed. This text is known as the Masoretic Text. The process of the closing of the Hebrew Scripture began in 60 AD when the Sadducees convened the rabbis of Jerusalem in a Rabbinical Synod to combat the influence of Christian writings. The rabbis (where the Sadducees had a large majority) condemned the Gospels (at least Matthew’s lost Gospel to the Hebrews) and Paul’s writings. In addition to this, they condemned the Book of Wisdom because of it’s heavy use by Christians (which was so important that it was actually included in the first list of the New Testament).
Thirty years later in 90 AD, after the destruction of the Second Temple and the expulsion of the Jews from Jerusalem, the Pharisees convened another Rabinical Synod in Joppa to address the texts of the Scriptures. They, along with the remnants of the Sadducees who survived the destruction of the Temple, condemned the Christian writings and also extended this condemnation to Sirach, which the Christians had used to convert many Jews since the destruction of the Temple through Christ’s fulfillment of the messianic imagery found within the book. The Council decided that, from that point forward, Jews would only accept as Scripture those books of which copies from the Temple’s library still existed in Hebrew. The only books which fitted this restriction were the 24 books described above in the Tanakh. Slowly, it filtered out to other Jewish centers around the Mediterranean and by 200 AD, most of the other Jewish communities followed suit. The only exception was really the community in Egypt, who had built their own Temple in the years since the destruction of the Second Temple and continued to not only use a wide selection of Ketuvim but also used the Greek versions found in the Septuagint.
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Gorgias
Guest
Because their leadership asserted, “meh… we’re not going to include these in the canon of Scripture.”
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CRM_Brother
Guest
The Protestants only accept the books of the Jewish Masoretic texts of Scripture which appeared after the Rabbinical Synod of Joppa in 90 AD. These were books which met three requirements:
If Protestants did accept it, then they would have to throw out the entire New Testament also.
- Original copies still existed which had been made from the texts of the Second Temple of Jerusalem.
- Those copies were in Hebrew, not Greek.
- The books hadn’t been previously condemned as being too supportive of Christian teachings.
If Protestants did accept it, then they would have to throw out the entire New Testament also.
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