I
Isaiah45_9
Guest
We can only hope.
- Status
P
pablope
Guest
J
joe371
Guest
That statement in bold is a rather rude one. I commend you for your tolerance. When I told my sister that, in order for the practice of sola scriptura to be valid and applicable today it must have been valid and applicable for the 1st, 2nd, 3rd and 4th century Christians, and taught by the apostles - she replied: every Christian had access to the bible back then. Some times there is simply nothing you can sayâŚ:shrug:It was never taught by the apostles and absolutely not valid or applicable for the following reasons: people could not go to the store and purchase a bible. Very few people had access to one. If it was not taught or believed by the apostles and could not work for those early Christians, due to the scarcity of bibles, then why should anyone embrace it now? Makes no sense to meâŚ
M
Mount_Carmel
Guest
Wow, while I was away to evening Mass and then early to bed [British Standard/Summer Time] this thread was certainly glowing hot. Martin Luther must have been spinning some! 
My little children, let us not love in word, nor in tongue, but in deed, and in truth. In this we know that we are of the truth: and in his sight shall persuade our hearts. - John 3:18-19
Even in the King James they still have Matthew 16:18
âAnd I {Jesus] say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.â
So why wonât they accept it?
My little children, let us not love in word, nor in tongue, but in deed, and in truth. In this we know that we are of the truth: and in his sight shall persuade our hearts. - John 3:18-19
Even in the King James they still have Matthew 16:18
âAnd I {Jesus] say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.â
So why wonât they accept it?
A
Augustine3
Guest
A
Augustine3
Guest
AgreedâŚthatâs part of what makes up Sacred Tradition. There had to be a common census by the early Church in order to decide what was authentically handed down by the apostles and what was not. Sacred Tradition continues today, one the ways is through the church councils (Vatican II being the most recent). The Magisterium convenes and works together in order to reach a common census of doctrine or other issues pertaining to issues of faith or morals.
I get the feeling Protestants do not fully understand what Sacred Tradition is otherwise they wouldnât cling onto sola scriptura. The liturgical mass for example was handed down by the apostles. The ECFâs bear witness to it even the ancient church buildings themselves bear witness to it, in them we find altars etc.
I donât understand why Protestants reject the authority of the apostolic succession of bishops when the succession clearly exists and if it clearly exists I wonder who instituted it?
M
Mike30
Guest
Well, the truth is very hard and not ecumenically minded but here goes. Proyestants by and large detest what they believe Catholicism to be. Everything from the Pope to Holy Water. They hate it.
Because the Catholic Church does not now and never has accepted the idea and practice of sola scriptura, protestants believe that we arenât arenât even real Christians. How many times have you heard a protestant ask if someone is a Christian or a Catholic? That question says a lot. A whole lot actually.
As near as I can tell, that is the only reason.
Tell you what. Ask your friend to point out the scriptural passage or passages that state that only written scripture, ie: The Bible is authoritative and to be trusted and followed and believed.
Donât worry,it isnât thereâŚNever was.
He will make excuses and he will squirm, and probably get mad at you, but he will be unable to answer that simple question.
C
classica87
Guest
Iâm going to second this. I actually got told by a friend who, God bless her, drove me to RCIA every Tuesday, âI donât know what the difference is between Catholic and Christian.â I wanted to say something snarky back, but I didnât.Well, the truth is very hard and not ecumenically minded but here goes. Proyestants by and large detest what they believe Catholicism to be. Everything from the Pope to Holy Water. They hate it.
Because the Catholic Church does not now and never has accepted the idea and practice of sola scriptura, protestants believe that we arenât arenât even real Christians. How many times have you heard a protestant ask if someone is a Christian or a Catholic? That question says a lot. A whole lot actually.
As near as I can tell, that is the only reason.
Tell you what. Ask your friend to point out the scriptural passage or passages that state that only written scripture, ie: The Bible is authoritative and to be trusted and followed and believed.
Donât worry,it isnât thereâŚNever was.
He will make excuses and he will squirm, and probably get mad at you, but he will be unable to answer that simple question.
A lot of protestants hate Catholics, and no matter how charitably and logically you place the truth in front of them, whether by word or action, they are still going to hate you because as far as theyâre concerned youâre a pagan. Even protestants who donât hate Catholics that vehemently still disagree because they just donât understand.
The problem I discovered, especially reflecting back on my childhood in the Baptist church, is that we were taught not to think. We were taught not to understand. We were taught what is âcorrect,â and to question anything outside of that was dangerous. Attempting to understand any faith other than the one you have might as well be apostasy.
That, for me at least, is one of the hardest things to overcome when trying to evangelize a non-Catholic. I live in the South, and closed-mindedness when it comes to religion is a very common thing here. They want you to discuss scripture, but instead of actually listening to you, they let your defense go in one ear, out the other, and then proceed to tell you how wrong you are. Reason and logic is for those atheistic scientists, not Jesus!
Sometimes, all you can do is pray. Live your faith, be charitable, and pray. We know we cannot put God in a box. We cannot limit Him to the confines of pages and ink. Holy scripture is a wonderful gift from God, but He has even more to offer us if we open our hearts to the grace and love His Sacred Heart is continuously pouring out on mankind! We can pray with confidence, knowing our petitions avail much, because ultimately His Sacred Heart will triumph. There is no power greater than the power of the cross!
N
Nicea325
Guest
And how does that prove the Bible-only when no fixed canon existed? Most commonly used? Like the Sheperd of Hermas or Clementâs Letter to the Corthinians? They were commonly used,so why arenât they in our Bibles?
M
Maranatha33
Guest
I believe I must take exception to some of your claims here. I am not trying to be a jerk, or anything else, but the reasoning you cite, is not exactly true. Especially regarding Scripture.
I agree whole heartedly about the Bible being authoritative, trusted, followed, and believed. However, that is not Roman Catholic dogma. The Bible and magisterium conflict on many key points. Sola Fida? Faith alone? Rom, 1:17"âŚthe just shall live by faith."
The Roman Catholic position is the need for faith AND works. However, the Bible saysâŚ
Eph 2:8,9 For it is by grace you have been saved,* through faith*âand this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of Godâ 9 not by works, so that no one can boast.
The magisterium tells RCs what is to be believed. Where the RCC and the Bible differ, we operate on the truth of Scripture. The RCC operates on the Roman rule book. If Scripture is against a particular dogma of the RCC, we take exception to that particular issue, but not the RC personâŚ
Please note, also; The term Catholic Church is actually translated into âUniversal Congregation.â This incorporates all believers in Jesus Christ. This site is based on the Roman Catholic Church doctrines, as they are specific to the church based in RomeâŚ
**2Tim 3:16 All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, **
I agree whole heartedly about the Bible being authoritative, trusted, followed, and believed. However, that is not Roman Catholic dogma. The Bible and magisterium conflict on many key points. Sola Fida? Faith alone? Rom, 1:17"âŚthe just shall live by faith."
The Roman Catholic position is the need for faith AND works. However, the Bible saysâŚ
Eph 2:8,9 For it is by grace you have been saved,* through faith*âand this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of Godâ 9 not by works, so that no one can boast.
Please note: I am not representing the beliefs of any particular Protestant denomination. Simply Biblical Christianity. However, Protestantism is generally much closer in beliefs to the Bible, than the RCC.
The magisterium tells RCs what is to be believed. Where the RCC and the Bible differ, we operate on the truth of Scripture. The RCC operates on the Roman rule book. If Scripture is against a particular dogma of the RCC, we take exception to that particular issue, but not the RC personâŚ
Please note, also; The term Catholic Church is actually translated into âUniversal Congregation.â This incorporates all believers in Jesus Christ. This site is based on the Roman Catholic Church doctrines, as they are specific to the church based in RomeâŚ
J
joe371
Guest
It does not say only scripture, so why make that claim? Perhaps you are not?
That is your interpretation. I would not agree with you. How can I know who to trust (me or you) regarding the truth of the matter?
This is false, if you are implying that the CC teaches that Jesusâ atoning work is not enough. However, faith without works is dead, as per scripture:
What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him? 15 If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food, 16 and one of you says to them, âDepart in peace, be warmed and filled,â but you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what does it profit? 17 Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead. 18 But someone will say, âYou have faith, and I have works.â Show me your faith without youra] works, and I will show you my faith by my**(âhttp://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=James+2:14-26&version=NKJV#fen-NKJV-30312bâ)] works. 19 You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believeâand tremble! 20 But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead?c] 21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? 22 Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect?
And you tell yourself what to believe. Should every Christian trust their own interpretations?
Truth is unknowable via this practice. My dad, sister, niece and aunt all belong to different Protestant churches and they all claim to have truth, but do not agree with each other on many things.
I get it: each and every Christian via their private interpretation of the bible. So much division as a resultâŚVery sadâŚ
819 "Furthermore, many elements of sanctification and of truth"273 are found outside the visible confines of the Catholic Church: "the written Word of God; the life of grace; faith, hope, and charity, with the other interior gifts of the Holy Spirit, as well as visible elements."274 Christâs Spirit uses these Churches and ecclesial communities as means of salvation, whose power derives from the fullness of grace and truth that Christ has entrusted to the Catholic Church. All these blessings come from Christ and lead to him,275 and are in themselves calls to "Catholic unity."276
P
pablope
Guest
I believe I must take exception to some of your claims here. I am not trying to be a jerk, or anything else, but the reasoning you cite, is not exactly true. Especially regarding Scripture.
P
Pythons
Guest
I would say they donât - they just have replaced the true historic MagisteriumâŚ
âŚWith another one that got made up a few hundred years ago.
âŚWith another one that got made up a few hundred years ago.
S
snowflakeinlove
Guest
Catholics donât have an issue with this verse. No where does it say that only scripture is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting, and training in righteousness. And if it did, there is no list in the bible that says what exactly is considered scripture- wouldnât you have to go outside the bible to find that?I believe I must take exception to some of your claims here. I am not trying to be a jerk, or anything else, but the reasoning you cite, is not exactly true. Especially regarding Scripture.
2Tim 3:16 All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness,
How does that passage prove faith alone? It says:
âThe just shall live by faithââŚ** not** âthe just shall live by faith aloneâ. The only place in the bible that mentions âfaith aloneâ is in James: You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone
By your interpretation- wouldnât this passage contradict with the one in James that says âa man is justified by works and not by faith aloneâ, or that "faith without works is dead?
The Catholic view of the passage is that we are saved by grace alone, and what Jesus did on the cross was sufficient to save us. We canât work our way into heaven. Salvation is a free gift, and we accept it through faith, which we live out by our works, e. Faith and works go hand in hand- you canât have one without the eitherâŚ
R
Ral91
Guest
As someone who was raised Protestant- Church of Scotland- I would like to add that we do not just believe in the BiBle. We also have traditions that we believe in- we just believe that the Bible is the authority- not a reverend/deacon/kirk session.
P
pablope
Guest
OkayâŚfor an someone or something to have authority, it must exercise that authority it has or possessâŚcorrect? Would you agree/
So if the Bible is the authorityâŚcan you demonstrate how the Bible exercises or exerts its authority?
Can you provide an example?
And how about your reverent/deacon/kirtâŚwhen he teaches or says somethingâŚdo you follow what he says? Do you believe what he tells you every Sunday in his sermon/homily?
R
Ral91
Guest
The bible as authority relies on faith! Complete and utter belief in what you read and learn from it. It is not easy and to be perfectly honest it would be easier if a reverend had some form of authority. For us, from a very very early age we read the bible from beginning to end- not an easy thing to do! And we continually have to re-read it! We then act (or at least should act) in accordance to what we have read! It does have its flaws but also itâs benefits. But the authority of it relies solely on individuals faith. If you do not believe it then it cannot exercise its authority. I have tried to explain this to a catholic friend and they found it difficult to understand, in the same way that I have difficulty recognising the authority of a pope.
P
pablope
Guest
F
ffg
Guest
Interesting.
I find it easy to understand Authority from something alive, be it God, the Bride of Christ (the Church Jesus started), the Pope, or my boss.
I find inspired words filled with Truth prove the Authority of God, the Bride of Christ, the Pope (my boss isnât mentioned in the Bible with the other three).
But I donât see how due to the printing press, the Bible becomes Authority in and of itself.
Before the printing press, where did people go to hear the good news? A: Mass
It reminds me of the discussion between Jesus and Pilot â You would have no authority over me if not given to you from aboveâ.
Likewise The bible which is read in Mass has Truth (confused as authority), The Authority lies with something living, the living Bride of Christ, which has Authority because it was created by Jesus, who is God from above.
R
rfournier103
Guest
There is NOTHING in that âproof-textâ that says ONLY Scripture is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness⌠I did not read the word âonlyâ anywhere in that statement. Also, the Catholic Church believes that the Sacred Scriptures are âGod -Breathedâ and Divinely Inspired. TRULY the Word of God!I believe I must take exception to some of your claims here. I am not trying to be a jerk, or anything else, but the reasoning you cite, is not exactly true. Especially regarding Scripture.
2Tim 3:16 All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness,
I agree whole heartedly about the Bible being authoritative, trusted, followed, and believed. However, that is not Roman Catholic dogma. The Bible and magisterium conflict on many key points. Sola Fida? Faith alone? Rom, 1:17"âŚthe just shall live by faith."
Sola Fide is NOT Biblical. For your considerationâŚ
James 2:14-26 ~ (bolded is mine
) What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can that faith save him? If a brother or sister has nothing to wear and has no food for the day, and one of you says to them, âGo in peace, keep warm, and eat well,â but you do not give them the necessities of the body, what good is it? So also faith of itself, if it does not have works, is dead. Indeed someone might say, âYou have faith and I have works.â Demonstrate your faith to me without works, and I will demonstrate my faith to you from my works. You believe that God is one. You do well. Even the demons believe that and tremble. Do you want proof, you ignoramus, that faith without works is useless? Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered his son Isaac upon the altar? You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by the works. Thus the scripture was fulfilled that says, âAbraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,â and he was called âthe friend of God.â See how a person is justified by works and not by faith alone. And in the same way, was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she welcomed the messengers and sent them out by a different route? For just as a body without a spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead.Matt 5:16 ~ Just so, your light must shine before others, that they may see your good deeds and glorify your heavenly Father. (bold is mine)
**Matt 7:21 **~ âNot everyone who says to me, âLord, Lord,â will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father in heaven.â (bold is mine)
Revalation 22:12 ~ âBehold, I am coming soon. I bring with me the recompense I will give to each according to his deedsâŚâ (red because this is Jesus speaking to John. Bold is mine)
Oh? I donât think so. Would you care to explain how this is so? Besides âSola-Fideâ, (which is NOT Biblical, rejected by MANY Protestants, and disproven by my proof-texts above), how are the Catholic Churchâs beliefs in conflict with the Bible? The Ball is in YOUR court, Sir.
âRoman Rule Book?â I must respectfully say, Sir, that I find your condescention rather insulting. What IS this âRoman Rule Bookâ you speak of? Have you ever read this âRoman Rule Bookâ? What does it say?
Are you speaking of the Catechism of the Catholic Church? If youâve ever seen a copy of the Catechism, you would see that it is bursting with citations from the Holy Bible. And NOWHERE in the Catechism is the Bible Contradicted.
The Church INTERPETS and preaches the Word. The Word was entrusted to the Church for preservation, teaching and preaching since the inspired writers of the Scriptures put pen to paper. The Church does not change, alter, or âfool aroundâ with Scripture. I can assure you, the Church takes it more seriously than you or I do. Theyâve been at it for 2000 years. Thatâs a wicked long time! (Can you tell Iâm a Boston guy?)
Again, Sir, I respectfully ask you⌠what Dogma of the Catholic Church runs counter to Scripture?
As a friendly gesture to you⌠I will recommend that if you are serious about learning something here, and not just arguing/debating us, you may wish to check out the followingâŚ
scripturecatholic.com/index.html ~ An excellent resource for Biblical explainations for Catholic beliefs and practices.
vatican.va/archive/index.htm ~ The Bible. The Catechism. The Code of Canon Law. The Documents of Vatican II. (and some other stuff, too)
Nothing in ANY of these documents will contradict the Bible.
I hope you take the time to do some research. Iâve done mine.
- Status