Why do protestants believe in Bible only?

[rfournier103]

To Maranatha33, I spent some time yesterday writing for your reading pleasure. Please respond to posts 238 and 239 on this thread. I await your response with baited breath. I didn’t realize we had moved on from Sola Fide to the Canon of Scripture. I just want to make sure we don’t leave any loose ends.

Thank you.

 

[7_Sorrows]

I am the one who started the thread and since I have been working 5 days in a row I have not had time to keep up with the posts. I hope to get a chance the next day or two to read of all the posts and once again I thank those of you who have posted. it looks like there are some interesting posts to read so I want to have time to read each one carefully.

have a good day!

 

[dronald]

I am the one who started the thread and since I have been working 5 days in a row I have not had time to keep up with the posts. I hope to get a chance the next day or two to read of all the posts and once again I thank those of you who have posted. it looks like there are some interesting posts to read so I want to have time to read each one carefully.

have a good day!

Haha, I know what that’s like here. It’s even harder when you’re the Protestant being quoted by six Catholic’s at once!

God bless you all, I hope to keep learning.

 

[rfournier103]

Haha, I know what that’s like here. It’s even harder when you’re the Protestant being quoted by six Catholic’s at once!

God bless you all, I hope to keep learning.

Welcome back, dronald! I was afraid you may have left us for good As you can see, you’re not the only Protestant here on this thread.

I hope to keep learning, myself. I happen to live in an area where the vast majority of believers are at least baptized as Catholics, so I must come here for my apologetics “practice”.

My own religious formation was lacking, so I am trying to “catch up” in adulthood. I have an undergraduate degree in Criminal Justice, and a HUGE love of history; therefore a tremendous interest in Catholicism is a natural fit for me.

Threads like this, and intelligent discussion of important topics are good for the mind; and given the subject matter; good for the soul.

God bless you, dronald; and God bless us all on this Feast of Sts. Peter and Paul.

 

[dronald]

Welcome back, dronald! I was afraid you may have left us for good As you can see, you’re not the only Protestant here on this thread.

No, no, no. I’m still going to be around and you can trust that I have been reading this thread and many others. I feel that you and I ended our discussion with you saying that you in no way know what kind of a Protestant I am, and I agree.

The problem with the separation of Catholic’s and Protestant’s is that our ultimate goal is to have others know Jesus. I know that Catholic’s wish Protestant’s were Catholic and I’m sure some Protestant’s wish Catholic’s were Protestant, but we both want all those who do not know Jesus to come to know Jesus. That is where we stand united.

The thing that baffles me the most about our separation is that Protestant’s as I said do want to stop sinning and do want to live for God. I’m sure you know about how many missionaries Evangelicals send to Africa, so I’m sure you can accept that Protestant’s can bear much good fruit.

Threads like this, and intelligent discussion of important topics are good for the mind; and given the subject matter; good for the soul.

God bless you, dronald; and God bless us all on this Feast of Sts. Peter and Paul.

<3

 

[rfournier103]

No, no, no. I’m still going to be around and you can trust that I have been reading this thread and many others. I feel that you and I ended our discussion with you saying that you in no way know what kind of a Protestant I am, and I agree.

The problem with the separation of Catholic’s and Protestant’s is that our ultimate goal is to have others know Jesus. I know that Catholics wish Protestants were Catholic and I’m sure some Protestants wish Catholics were Protestant, but we both want all those who do not know Jesus to come to know Jesus. That is where we stand united.

The thing that baffles me the most about our separation is that Protestants as I said do want to stop sinning and do want to live for God. I’m sure you know about how many missionaries Evangelicals send to Africa, so I’m sure you can accept that Protestant’s can bear much good fruit.
<3

I agree. Jesus is the Great Unifying Force in Christianity, in my opinion. The VAST majority of us believe in His Divinity, Resurrection, and Redemption of mankind.

I wholeheartedly agree that Protestants’ efforts can bear much good fruit, and that several Protestants (and FORMER Protestants) have been very influential on my own life and spiritual education.

I just hope that our (Catholics and Protestants) differences don’t endure forever, and Truth shall conquer pride.

Getting back to the topic at hand (the Holy Bible), I would like to recommend the Documents of Vatican II to you. The Council is very unique in the long history of the Church, in that it is pretty much a “Constitution”, or a “Magna Carta” of sorts.

In these Documents, almost everything about the Church is covered, and there’s a whole Constitution on Divine Revelation. The role of the Bible in the Church is covered quite extensively.

vatican.va/archive/hist_councils/ii_vatican_council/documents/vat-ii_const_19651118_dei-verbum_en.html

I actually bought a hardcover copy of the Documents ($100.00!) that includes additional commentary from Catholic, Orthodox, and Protestant scholars. I think every Christian should own and read the Bible (unabridged, of course ), and the Documents. The Bible, because it is the Word of God. As a book, it is in a class by itself. The Documents, because they provide a tremendous insight into Christ’s Holy Church.

As I said, that link is worth looking at.

Have a great day, my friend.

 

[pablope]

I did not say the Bible was completed by 100 A.D. It is the last of the eyewitness generation as John in Patmos, died. The early Christians were urged (in Scripture) to pass the letters around. Paul died in what 64 A.D.? Peter close to the same? It is no stretch to me that 21 of the 27 Books was referenced at the Muritorium Canon of 150 A.D…

As I asked…how were this passed around…without any printing press, Christians on the run and hiding from prosecution of the Romans…very few could read and write…how how did the Scriptures get passed around?

Can you explain?

The early church fathers, of the Universal Congregation, who scrutinized many Books, and only accepted the 27 over a period of years. The requirement was that it was written by an apostle or a companion of one, thus when John died in around 95-100 A.D. no book written later was accepted. They were very selective, and some good writings that may have not fit every criteria, as well as forgeries, were omitted.

 

[pablope]

No, no, no.

The problem with the separation of Catholic’s and Protestant’s is that our ultimate goal is to have others know Jesus. I know that Catholic’s wish Protestant’s were Catholic and I’m sure some Protestant’s wish Catholic’s were Protestant, but we both want all those who do not know Jesus to come to know Jesus. That is where we stand united.

The thing that baffles me the most about our separation is that Protestant’s as I said do want to stop sinning and do want to live for God. I’m sure you know about how many missionaries Evangelicals send to Africa, so I’m sure you can accept that Protestant’s can bear much good fruit.

<3

But would you agree that there are some over zealous protestants (maybe misguided) who send missionaries in Christian, (albeit catholic) areas…to export their brand of Christianity?

I hope you do read this true story…sad indeed what is happening…freerepublic.com/focus/f-religion/1858224/posts

How I Solved the Catholic Problem (in 3 parts)
| Kristine L. Franklin

 

[jmcrae]

To jmcrae,

I wrote a long reply to your comments, however a censor must not have liked that I had Biblical answers for your points. Since censorship is allowed, it is hard to have a discussion of differences. Thank you for your answers. If you read your Bible and compare it to say the 15th and 22 Counsels of Trent doctrines (which were confirmed as official at Vatican II) you will see holes. May God Bless you, and all that call on the Name of the Lord Jesus.

ciao,
M33

I have read the documentation of the Council of Trent, and the Documents of Vatican II, as well as the Scriptures in their entirety _ I have read through the Scriptures many times; I began a daily Bible reading program when I was five years old - and while I make no claim to be a scholar of any kind (my life is too busy with other responsibilities for that) I have never personally noticed any contradictions between anything found in either of these Councils and what I find in the Scriptures, and those scholars whom I have come to trust assure me that there is no contradiction to be found.

I’ve been on this Forum a long time, and I’ve written a lot about the Bible on various occasions, but the only times I’ve ever been censored were times when I lost my temper and wrote things that were both uncharitable and untrue, or when I tried to make inappropriate jokes.

 

[Geo17]

I’m still here too. But maybe I’m a little different from the other protestants here in that I was born and raised Catholic. As I look at the title of this thread, why do we believe in only the Bible, and after thinking about this all week, very few protestants would admit this, but few of us believe in ONLY the Bible. We say that, but because the Bible is so hard to understand, many protestants wind up believing in what 1 or more preachers say. 33 years ago, while finding my way back to God, I read what so many different preachers said I became quite confused. I read other preachers and the Bible at the same time. Sometimes checking what the preacher said against the Bible every few sentences. I had learned many preachers were misquoting scripture to make their point. So after 10 years from my official “getting saved” age, I would only read and trust 1 preacher. He was an old timer who started out Baptist and became evangelical after a NDE as a teenager. One of his famous sayings was anything God told him he wanted scriptural proof and in at least 2 places. He always followed that rule even for his own writings. Any point he made he gave 2 or more scriptural proofs. I never caught him in a lie, and I used to check. I didn’t always agree with him, but he never misquoted scripture. He’s been gone now almost 10 years.

Btw, I put parenthesis around getting saved because if I am indeed saved, I never believed it happened instantaneously when I said the sinners prayer. I think it was more like a process, and took place over time as I read the Bible and came to love everything about God. Another point about getting saved and then running around feeling self assured you’re going to heaven no matter what else you may do. That never seemed right to me. And back then a cousin who went to Catholic school told me that even the saints weren’t always so sure they were going to Heaven. And I know all of them lived a more holy life than me. So I never say things like I’m saved. I say I belong to God. Of that I feel pretty sure. I also never believed the OSAS, once saved always saved, doctrine.

I guess part of me always remained Catholic, even though I was never taught much about it. Lately I feel like God is pulling me in this direction. I still have problems with certain ideas. And the Catholic church I want to go to and possibly join, is in a neighboring town that is difficult to get to since I lost my car. So I’m waiting on God, to see where He wants me to go. In the meantime, I’m reading on these forums more than any where else.

 

[jmcrae]

No, no, no. I’m still going to be around and you can trust that I have been reading this thread and many others. I feel that you and I ended our discussion with you saying that you in no way know what kind of a Protestant I am, and I agree.

Are you going to tell us … ?

There are thousands of different Protestant groups, each with its own set of beliefs, assumptions, and customs. No two are alike, so it’s always good to know which of these many communities you affiliate yourself with, so that we can have some idea what unspoken assumptions we are responding to. For example, there is a vast difference between Baptists and Methodists.

 

[Maranatha33]

To Maranatha33, I spent some time yesterday writing for your reading pleasure. Please respond to posts 238 and 239 on this thread. I await your response with baited breath. I didn’t realize we had moved on from Sola Fide to the Canon of Scripture. I just want to make sure we don’t leave any loose ends.

Hi 103… (feel free to call me 33 for brevity…) Part 1 of 2
I have had many issues to address, so I can only do one at a time. This is my reasoning on why Sola Fida is true. I will take a verse from Isaiah, parts of Chapter 3 and Chapter 4 of Romans, and Hebrews 11.

Is. 64:6 All of us have become like one who is unclean,
and all our righteous acts are like filthy rags;
we all shrivel up like a leaf,
and like the wind our sins sweep us away.

You quoted from James…
James 2:14-26
14 What good is it, my brothers and sisters, if someone claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save them? 15 Suppose a brother or a sister is without clothes and daily food. 16 If one of you says to them, “Go in peace; keep warm and well fed,” but does nothing about their physical needs, what good is it? 17 In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead.
18 But someone will say, “You have faith; I have deeds.”
Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by my deeds. 19 You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that—and shudder.
20 **You foolish person, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is useless[d]? 21 Was not our father Abraham considered righteous for what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? 22 You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did. **23 And the scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,”[e] and he was called God’s friend. 24 You see that a person is considered righteous by what they do and not by faith alone.
25 In the same way, was not even Rahab the prostitute considered righteous for what she did when she gave lodging to the spies and sent them off in a different direction? 26 As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without deeds is dead.

There are only 2 possibilities here. Faith is in need of works, or faith is shown by works. I contend that if you read carefully, you will see that the works here are only a verification of true, saving faith. The Scriptures are given by God. They can not contradict themselves. The case for Salvation by faith alone is overwhelming.

Eph 2:8,9 For it is by grace you have been saved,** through faith**—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast.

You responded that “Sola Fide is not Biblical.” I don’t understand this answer. Ephesians is in the Bible, and these verses are very clear. We are saved by faith, not by works. You may not like it, but that is what it says.

Rom 1:17 For in the gospel the righteousness of God is revealed—a righteousness that is by faith from first to last, just as it is written: “The righteous will live by faith.”

 

[Maranatha33]

To 103… Part 2 of 2…

Rom 3:20 Therefore no one will be declared righteous in God’s sight by the works of the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of our sin. 21 But now apart from the law the righteousness of God has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. 22 This righteousness is given through faith in[h] Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference between Jew and Gentile, 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 and all are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus. 25 God presented Christ as a sacrifice of atonement, through the shedding of his blood—to be received by faith. He did this to demonstrate his righteousness, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished— 26 he did it to demonstrate his righteousness at the present time, so as to be just and the one who justifies those who have faith in Jesus.

Romans 3:28 For we maintain that a person is justified by faith apart from the works of the law.

Romans 4:1-6 What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh, discovered in this matter? 2 If, in fact, Abraham was justified by works, he had something to boast about—but not before God. 3 What does Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.”[a]

4 Now to the one who works, wages are not credited as a gift but as an obligation. 5 However, to the **one who does not work but trusts God who justifies the ungodly, their faith is credited as righteousness. **6 David says the same thing when he speaks of the blessedness of the one to whom God credits righteousness apart from works:

Heb 11:1-7 Now faith is confidence in what we hope for and assurance about what we do not see. 2 This is what the ancients were commended for.

3* By faith* we understand that the universe was formed at God’s command, so that what is seen was not made out of what was visible.

4 By faith Abel brought God a better offering than Cain did. By faith he was commended as righteous, when God spoke well of his offerings. And by faith Abel still speaks, even though he is dead.

5By faith Enoch was taken from this life, so that he did not experience death: “He could not be found, because God had taken him away.”[a] For before he was taken, he was commended as one who pleased God. 6 And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him.

7 By faith Noah, when warned about things not yet seen, in holy fear built an ark to save his family. By his faith he condemned the world and became** heir of the righteousness that is in keeping with faith.
**

Matt 5:16 ~ Just so, your light must shine before others, that they may see your good deeds and glorify your heavenly Father. (bold is mine)

Matt 7:21 ~ “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father in heaven.” (bold is mine)

Revalation 22:12 ~ “Behold, I am coming soon. I bring with me the recompense I will give to each according to his deeds…” (red because this is Jesus speaking to John. Bold is mine)

John 6:29 Jesus answered, “The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent.”

Jesus commands us to be born again. (John 3:3, 3:7, etal…) The way to tell if someone is born again is by their deeds. These deeds VERIFY true salvation. They do not cause salvation. There is no contradiction Biblically in Sola Fida. There are,however, contradictions if works contributes to salvation.

Belief = Faith, alone.**

 

[Maranatha33]

To IgnatianPhilo…

1. Where does Iraneaus mention a 27 book canon of the new testament?

If you read my statement again, I said that Iraneaus held to the 4 Gospels. After the Muritorium Canon of 150 A.D., false Gospels (any but Matt. Mk. Lk. and Jn.) started appearing en masse. That is why he wrote " Against Heresies." To rule out forgeries of the Gospels. The 27 books are what the total of the number of Books ended up as, because there were only 4 True Gospels.

21 of the 27 Books in the N.T. were identified as Scripture in 150 A.D. Before Rome gained control of the Catholic church, all 27 Books were referred to as “Holy Scripture” by outside sources.

 

[jmcrae]

This is all very selective. I think if you were to do a word-find on the word “do” in the Bible, you would find more than just “faith” in the words that follow.

Abraham’s faith was credited to him as righteousness, because when he awoke to the sound of the Lord’s voice, he did not just roll over and go back to sleep again. He got out of bed, found the animals for the sacrifice, and made the sacrifice to enter into a covenant with God.

If he had not acted and made the Sacrifice, no Covenant would have been established, and Abraham would have been just one more guy wandering around in the hill country looking for meaning in his life, and not knowing what it was supposed to look like.

 

[Isaiah45_9]

Belief = Faith, alone.

Faith without Works Is Dead

James 2:14 What does it profit, my brethren, if a man says he has faith but has not works? Can his faith save him?[c] 15 If a brother or sister is ill-clad and in lack of daily food, 16 and one of you says to them, “Go in peace, be warmed and filled,” without giving them the things needed for the body, what does it profit? 17 So faith by itself, if it has no works, is dead.

18 But some one will say, “You have faith and I have works.” Show me your faith apart from your works, and I by my works will show you my faith. 19 You believe that God is one; you do well. Even the demons believe—and shudder. 20 Do you want to be shown, you foolish fellow, that faith apart from works is barren? 21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he offered his son Isaac upon the altar? 22 You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by works, 23 and the scripture was fulfilled which says, “Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness”; and he was called the friend of God. 24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone. 25 And in the same way was not also Rahab the harlot justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out another way? 26 For as the body apart from the spirit is dead, so faith apart from works is dead.

 

[rfournier103]

Hi 103…

There are only 2 possibilities here. Faith is in need of works, or faith is shown by works. I contend that if you read carefully, you will see that the works here are only a verification of true, saving faith. The Scriptures are given by God. They can not contradict themselves. The case for Salvation by faith alone is overwhelming.

Eph 2:8,9 For it is by grace you have been saved,** through faith**—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast.

You responded that “Sola Fide is not Biblical.” I don’t understand this answer. Ephesians is in the Bible, and these verses are very clear. We are saved by faith, not by works. You may not like it, but that is what it says.

Rom 1:17 For in the gospel the righteousness of God is revealed—a righteousness that is by faith from first to last, just as it is written: “The righteous will live by faith.”

Added underline to “33”'s quote is mine.

We are saved by God’s Grace. Period. Nowhere in the Bible do the words “FAITH” and “ALONE” appear side-by-side.

We believe in God, and obey His Son, Jesus Christ. Because of this belief, this FAITH, we must LIVE this Faith (being Christ-like, and charitable, etc…)

If FAITH ALONE is the rule, I don’t need to go to Church, don’t need the Bible, don’t need to keep the Commandments, and don’t even need to get baptized. I just need to have faith in God and I’m a shoo-in to get to heaven.

Nowhere in your rebuttal did the words FAITH ALONE appear in your Bible quotes. We need faith. I have that in spades. Does that mean I can skip Mass tomorrow morning, commit robbery, arson, and murder because I believe in Jesus and God and I’m going to Heaven no matter what I do? Oh wait… Revelation 22:12 ~ “Behold, I am coming soon. I bring with me the recompense I will give to each according to his deeds.” Jesus said that. How does that jibe with Sola Fide?

If you don’t have faith, it doesn’t seem likely that God will bestow His Grace upon you. Maybe they call it “Saving Grace” for a reason?

you will see that the works here are only a verification of true, saving faith.

This quote is a little closer to Catholic teaching than you might think, but according to you, all you have to do is DEMONSTRATE your faith? That’s not FAITH ALONE. Faith alone means; “I believe, and I don’t have to lift a finger”, right?

In all seriousness, I think you’re a little off on what you THINK Catholicism is. Someone has sold you a bill of goods that you’ve bought into, and you’ve got us wrong.

 

[JonNC]

=rfournier103;10927523]Added underline to “33”'s quote is mine.

We are saved by God’s Grace. Period. Nowhere in the Bible do the words “FAITH” and “ALONE” appear side-by-side.

We believe in God, and obey His Son, Jesus Christ. Because of this belief, this FAITH, we must LIVE this Faith (being Christ-like, and charitable, etc…)

No where does scripture say Trinity or the like, either. On countless occasions, however, the NT tells us that we are saved by grace, justified by faith, and not by works. And you are right, the regenerate are called on to live the godly life, help the least of His children, etc.

If FAITH ALONE is the rule, I don’t need to go to Church, don’t need the Bible, don’t need to keep the Commandments, and don’t even need to get baptized. I just need to have faith in God and I’m a shoo-in to get to heaven.

If you have saving faith, why would not want to follow His commands? In no way does sola fide exclude the necessity of Baptism, or the need for the other sacraments.

Nowhere in your rebuttal did the words FAITH ALONE appear in your Bible quotes. We need faith. I have that in spades. Does that mean I can skip Mass tomorrow morning, commit robbery, arson, and murder because I believe in Jesus and God and I’m going to Heaven no matter what I do? Oh wait… Revelation 22:12 ~ “Behold, I am coming soon. I bring with me the recompense I will give to each according to his deeds.” Jesus said that. How does that jibe with Sola Fide?

So, what part of saving faith would guide one into choosing to skip mass and go rob a bank?
If one thinks along these lines, do they really have saving faith? Really?

This quote is a little closer to Catholic teaching than you might think, but according to you, all you have to do is DEMONSTRATE your faith? That’s not FAITH ALONE. Faith alone means; “I believe, and I don’t have to lift a finger”, right?

I can’t speak for the poster, but this phrase reminds me of Luther’s commentary on Galatians 5:6.
*

. For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but faith which worketh by love.

Faith must of course be sincere. It must be a faith that performs good works through love. If faith lacks love it is not true faith. Thus the Apostle bars the way of hypocrites to the kingdom of Christ on all sides. He declares on the one hand, “In Christ Jesus circumcision availeth nothing,” i.e., works avail nothing, but faith alone, and that without any merit whatever, avails before God. On the other hand, the Apostle declares that without fruits faith serves no purpose. **To think, “If faith justifies without works, let us work nothing,” is to despise the grace of God. **Idle faith is not justifying faith. In this terse manner Paul presents the whole life of a Christian. Inwardly it consists in faith towards God, outwardly in love towards our fellow-men. *

Jon

 

[jmcrae]

No where does scripture say Trinity or the like, either. On countless occasions, however, the NT tells us that we are saved by grace, justified by faith, and not by works. And you are right, the regenerate are called on to live the godly life, help the least of His children, etc.

If you have saving faith, why would not want to follow His commands? In no way does sola fide exclude the necessity of Baptism, or the need for the other sacraments.

Then why do most of the “faith alone” religions exclude all of the Sacraments except for Baptism, which they call an “ordinance”?

So, what part of saving faith would guide one into choosing to skip mass and go rob a bank?
If one thinks along these lines, do they really have saving faith? Really?

If mere belief is all that is required for salvation, then robbing a bank would not cause you to lose your salvation.

 

[JonNC]

=jmcrae;10929272]Then why do most of the “faith alone” religions exclude all of the Sacraments except for Baptism, which they call an “ordinance”?

No idea. Christ tells us to Baptize. St Paul tells us that Baptism now saves you. Christ institutes the Eucharist, provides for the gift of confession/absolution. Perhaps 33 can enlighten us, if that is whathe/she believes.

If mere belief is all that is required for salvation, then robbing a bank would not cause you to lose your salvation.

Who is speaking of mere belief? But more importantly, my question was, if you indeed have saving faith, why would skipping mass to rob a bank be a choice you might consider? If you have saving faith, would you not be desirous of doing His will, following His commands, and seeking absolution when you fail to do so?
Will robbing a bank cause you to lose your salvation? It depends. If one is intent on persevering in sin, maintaining saving faith seems unlikely.

Jon