Why do Protestants object to Purgatory?

[jim1130]

The only harm is the loss of rewards.Jesus said in my Fathers house there are many mansions.I believe heaven has many levels just as hell does. God decides which mansion we will be in according to the rewards we recieve. Of course this is only my oppinion.

ANY level in Hell is what I want to avoid!!!

 

[MariaG]

I know Jesus was tempted by the devil while here on earth. When Jesus was tempted He spoke the Word for He said it is written,and the devil departed. In heaven this will not happen because nothing un holy can enter in. Not an issue…

Well, I see we will disagree on this. You believe you are currently perfectly clean and holy and can enter into heaven because Christ’s blood covers your sins. You must needs believe that you have been purified the instant you repented, and will stay that way until you die.

I believe that I *may *need to have all the effects of my sin removed upon my death.

But I do believe the only reason it will happen is because of Christ.

From CA library Purgatory
It is entirely correct to say that Christ accomplished all of our salvation for us on the cross. But that does not settle the question of how this redemption is applied to us. Scripture reveals that it is applied to us over the course of time through, among other things, the process of sanctification through which the Christian is made holy. Sanctification involves suffering (Rom. 5:3–5), and purgatory is the final stage of sanctification that some of us need to undergo before we enter heaven. Purgatory is the final phase of Christ’s applying to us the purifying redemption that he accomplished for us by his death on the cross.

You believe the scripture shown does not show a purging or cleansing.

Could you please give your interpetation of that scripture? What is happening and why are our works being put through fire.

As we have said, we interpret this to be a cleansing or purging that comes after death. What or rather When do you interpret this scripture as happening?

1Cor 3:11For other foundation no man can lay, but that which is laid; which is Christ Jesus. 12 Now if any man build upon this foundation, gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble: 13 Every man’s work shall be manifest; for the day of the Lord shall declare it, because it shall be revealed in fire; and the fire shall try every man’s work, of what sort it is. 14 If any man’s work abide, which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. 15 If any man’s work burn, he shall suffer loss; but he himself shall be saved, yet so as by fire.

Also, could you please show me where in the Early Church that this was interpreted in this manner? I show you scripture. You say I interpret it wrong. I can show you writings from the Early Church that support and talk about the concept of purgatory.

If you wish me to believe your interpretation of scripture, you really need to offer more than just your disagreement. Below is a link to some of the ECF on this. As well as you would need to explain why the Jews believe in a final purification and have taught this as God’s truth since before Christ.

From CA Library The Roots of Purgatory
The doctrine of purgatory, or the final purification, has been part of the true faith since before the time of Christ. The Jews already believed it before the coming of the Messiah, as revealed in the Old Testament (2 Macc. 12:41–45) as well as in other pre-Christian Jewish works, such as one which records that Adam will be in mourning “until the day of dispensing punishment in the last years, when I will turn his sorrow into joy” (The Life of Adam and Eve 46–7). Orthodox Jews to this day believe in the final purification, and for eleven months after the death of a loved one, they pray a prayer called the Mourner’s Kaddish for their loved one’s purification.

Jews, Catholics, and the Eastern Orthodox have always historically proclaimed the reality of the final purification. It was not until the Protestant Reformation in the sixteenth century that anyone denied this doctrine. As the quotes below from the early Church Fathers show, purgatory has been part of the Christian faith from the very beginning.

Some imagine that the Catholic Church has an elaborate doctrine of purgatory worked out, but there are only three essential components of the doctrine: (1) that a purification after death exists, (2) that it involves some kind of pain, and (3) that the purification can be assisted by the prayers and offerings by the living to God. Other ideas, such that purgatory is a particular “place” in the afterlife or that it takes time to accomplish, are speculations rather than doctrines.

 

[flameburns623]

Thank you for clarifying. I will take the “more familiar with Biblical theology than that” as a compliment

I did not intend anything insulting. Sorry if my turn of phrase was a bit sharp.

. . . I believe that people are intrisically good and moral . . . .

contrary to even Roman Catholic teaching

. . . and that I worship God and pray to live up to the standard. I know that when I fall short it is because of my choosing, since I am human and prone to reside in the City of Man more often than the City of God.

Nice Augustinian turn of phrase but it doesn’t mask what is essentially Pelagianism on your part. Hammer out in your own mind what it means for humanity to be fallen; hammer out what means the holiness of God and you will work through the problem which Augustine, Luther, and Calvin resolved by the doctrine of Predestination.

 

[Syele]

But once again, what about temptation? They are inclinations to evil.

What/how will happen to this inclinations to evil once you die? We both agree they will not enter heaven with us, correct?

What happens to our inclination to evil?

God Bless,
Maria

I disagree with this, as Christians, temptation comes from outside ourselves. Temptation is Satans way to try and harm us. The saved Christian dosn’t have inherent inclinations to evil. They do suffer from harassment from Satan though.

 

[jim1130]

I did not intend anything insulting. Sorry if my turn of phrase was a bit sharp.

Not at all. I was not insulted.

 

[MariaG]

I disagree with this, as Christians, temptation comes from outside ourselves. Temptation is Satans way to try and harm us. The saved Christian dosn’t have inherent inclinations to evil. They do suffer from harassment from Satan though.

So you do not believe in the “wounded nature” that remains even after Baptism?

 

[Syele]

So you do not believe in the “wounded nature” that remains even after Baptism?

No.

Romans 6:
“16Don’t you know that when you offer yourselves to someone to obey him as slaves, you are slaves to the one whom you obey—whether you are slaves to sin, which leads to death, or to obedience, which leads to righteousness? 17But thanks be to God that, though you used to be slaves to sin, you wholeheartedly obeyed the form of teaching to which you were entrusted. 18You have been set free from sin and have become slaves to righteousness.”

Sin is obedience to Satan. Righteousness is Obedience to God. If we have become slaves to righteousness we will not obey Satan any longer. We are no longer slaves to him. We continue to sin only when we are tricked into following Satan instead of God. check this out:

''19 I put this in human terms because you are weak in your natural selves. Just as you used to offer the parts of your body in slavery to impurity and to ever-increasing wickedness, so now offer them in slavery to righteousness leading to holiness. 20When you were slaves to sin, you were free from the control of righteousness. 21What benefit did you reap at that time from the things you are now ashamed of? Those things result in death! 22But **now that you have been set free from sin **and have become slaves to God, the benefit you reap leads to holiness, and the result is eternal life."

If we still have inclinations to sin as a part of us, How can we be FREE from sin? We cannot be free from it if it is a part of us.

We are still only weak and can be decevied by Satan, we sin when we are decieved… or as my Daughter says, “The Devil likes to trick us!” When we stay focused on God, we are less easily decieved. Being weak is not the same as being inherently inclined to sin.

 

[IHS]

Well, I see we will disagree on this. You believe you are currently perfectly clean and holy and can enter into heaven because Christ’s blood covers your sins. You must needs believe that you have been purified the instant you repented, and will stay that way until you die.

I believe that I *may *need to have all the effects of my sin removed upon my death.

But I do believe the only reason it will happen is because of Christ.

You believe the scripture shown does not show a purging or cleansing.

Could you please give your interpetation of that scripture? What is happening and why are our works being put through fire.

As we have said, we interpret this to be a cleansing or purging that comes after death. What or rather When do you interpret this scripture as happening?

1Cor 3:11 For other foundation no man can lay, but that which is laid; which is Christ Jesus. 12 Now if any man build upon this foundation, gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble: 13 Every man’s work shall be manifest; for the day of the Lord shall declare it, because it shall be revealed in fire; and the fire shall try every man’s work, of what sort it is. 14 If any man’s work abide, which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. 15 If any man’s work burn, he shall suffer loss; but he himself shall be saved, yet so as by fire.

Also, could you please show me where in the Early Church that this was interpreted in this manner? I show you scripture. You say I interpret it wrong. I can show you writings from the Early Church that support and talk about the concept of purgatory.

If you wish me to believe your interpretation of scripture, you really need to offer more than just your disagreement. Below is a link to some of the ECF on this. As well as you would need to explain why the Jews believe in a final purification and have taught this as God’s truth since before Christ.

Yes, I do believe at this moment I am clean. To think otherwise it would mean that I do not believe Gods Word. I would be calling God a liar.

 

[MariaG]

No.

Romans 6:
“16Don’t you know that when you offer yourselves to someone to obey him as slaves, you are slaves to the one whom you obey—whether you are slaves to sin, which leads to death, or to obedience, which leads to righteousness? 17But thanks be to God that, though you used to be slaves to sin, you wholeheartedly obeyed the form of teaching to which you were entrusted. 18You have been set free from sin and have become slaves to righteousness.”

Sin is obedience to Satan. Righteousness is Obedience to God. If we have become slaves to righteousness we will not obey Satan any longer. We are no longer slaves to him. We continue to sin only when we are tricked into following Satan instead of God. check this out:

''19 I put this in human terms because you are weak in your natural selves. Just as you used to offer the parts of your body in slavery to impurity and to ever-increasing wickedness, so now offer them in slavery to righteousness leading to holiness. 20When you were slaves to sin, you were free from the control of righteousness. 21What benefit did you reap at that time from the things you are now ashamed of? Those things result in death! 22But **now that you have been set free from sin **and have become slaves to God, the benefit you reap leads to holiness, and the result is eternal life."

If we still have inclinations to sin as a part of us, How can we be FREE from sin? We cannot be free from it if it is a part of us.

We are still only weak and can be decevied by Satan, we sin when we are decieved… or as my Daughter says, “The Devil likes to trick us!” When we stay focused on God, we are less easily decieved. Being weak is not the same as being inherently inclined to sin.

I am not sure I am correctly representing “Catholic” teachings. I am looking for some other references because I do not wish to mislead anyone.

I was looking at my new reference, The Faith of Our Fathers by William Jurgens. In it refers to concupiscence, our this inclination to sin.

1887
Although concupiscnence is called sin, it is not called such because it is in itself sin, but is the result of sin, just as a writing is said to be someone’s hand because the hand wrote it. St. Augustine of Hippo

I have to go right now, but I will try to get back to this later.

I do my best to represent the teachings of the Catholic Church. But in this I think I may be failing to do so due to my own ignorance and incomplete understanding.

God Bless,
Maria

 

[jmcrae]

I,m sure your familiar with the book of Daniel. Though the were in the fire they were not harmed and they even didn,t smell like smoke.

Because they were without sin, and were already walking with Jesus, right?

But if there had been any stain of sin upon those boys, then that stain would have been burned up (Purgatory), and if they themselves had been sinful then the fire of that burning would have consumed them whole (Hell).

They came out of the furnace whole because they had no impure works.

 

[IHS]

Because they were without sin, and were already walking with Jesus, right?

But if there had been any stain of sin upon those boys, then that stain would have been burned up (Purgatory), and if they themselves had been sinful then the fire of that burning would have consumed them whole (Hell).

They came out of the furnace whole because they had no impure works.

Yes, just like I am at this moment,without sin (rightious in Christ) and walking with Jesus. If they were in sin they would have lost their protection and would have been consumed.

 

[jmcrae]

Yes, just like I am at this moment,without sin (rightious in Christ) and walking with Jesus. If they were in sin they would have lost their protection and would have been consumed.

YES - we are a step closer, I think - yes, if they had sinned, then they would not have been able to walk with Jesus, and they would have been consumed.

Just as we will be, if we commit sin after Baptism, unless we go to Confession and receive Holy Communion afterwards.

Those boys had not even the stain of sin on them, but we, after being forgiven of our sins, will still have the stains of those sins on us (but not the sins themselves), and we will be scorched, though not burned up, because of those stains.

 

[IHS]

YES - we are a step closer, I think - yes, if they had sinned, then they would not have been able to walk with Jesus, and they would have been consumed.

Just as we will be, if we commit sin after Baptism, unless we go to Confession and receive Holy Communion afterwards.

Those boys had not even the stain of sin on them, but we, after being forgiven of our sins, will still have the stains of those sins on us (but not the sins themselves), and we will be scorched, though not burned up, because of those stains.

This is why we need to examine ourselves dayly and see if their is sin in our lives which we need to confess. They weren,t scourched not even a hair singed and neither will we for we also were washed white as snow and without stain.

 

[AlegreFe]

IHS:

That purification takes place as soon as we repent of our sins,then Jesus washes us with His precious blood and are made white as snow.

Ah - so in Confession (where I repent of my sins), and at Holy Communion (when Jesus washes me with His blood).

That’s exactly what I thougth when IHS posted his/her post.

We Catholics have the Sacrament of Confession which gives us Sanctifying Grace and the Sacrament of Holy Communion which IS Sanctifying Grace because it is actually the Body & Blood of Jesus Christ. And that is why my sins are forgiven and I am after that point, in a State of Grace. This is a guarentee from Jesus Christ because he instituted the Sacraments for us to give us this Sanctifying Grace.

Jesus “sent” his Apostles and gave them authority to forgive sins here on earth. Those “Apostles” are now our Priests who forgive us our sins. Those Priests stand in Persona Christi for us so that we can hear the words of absolution (which are posted below).

"God, the Father of mercies, through the death and resurrection
of his Son has reconciled the world to himself and sent the Holy
Spirit among us for the forgiveness of sins; through the ministry of
the Church may God give you pardon and peace, and I absolve
you from your sins in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and
of the Holy Spirit. Amen."

Oh my goodness, no Protestant has any idea what it feels like to hear those words and know with absolute certainty that my sins are forgiven. Wow, what a high! I love it! I love my Catholic Church and I love the Priests for serving their people in this way. And of course for all of that, I love Jesus Christ for establishing such Sacraments that give us Sanctifying Grace and give us the guarentee of such forgiveness in the Sacrament of Confession.

Absolution forgives the guilt associated with the penitent’s sins,
and removes the eternal punishment (Hell) associated with mortal
sins. The penitent is still responsible for the temporal punishment
(Purgatory) associated with the confessed sins, unless an
indulgence is applied.

21 (Jesus) said to them again, “Peace be with you. As
the Father has sent me, so I send you.”
22 And when he had said this, he breathed on them and
said to them, “Receive the holy Spirit.
23 Whose sins you forgive are forgiven them, and
whose sins you retain are retained.” John 20:21-23

What kind of “guarentee” do Protestants have if they just say a prayer in a room by themselves that their sins are completely forgiven and therefore now in a state of grace? I know that you trust Jesus Christ to forgive you. So do I. I trust Jesus Christ with all my heart. But we need some kind of GUARENTEE and some kind of sign that we are indeed forgiven. We need an AUTHORITY here on earth that can let us know certain things that were taught to the Apostles straight from Jesus Christ.

 

[FillTheVoid]

Protestants object to Pergatory because they believe the moment they put their trust in Jesus Christ as their personal lord and savior their slate is wiped 100% clean from beginning to end.

Past, present, and future. Regardless of what they do in the future it’s already payed for in full by what Jesus did on the cross.

And out of love they then lead lives of devotion, obediance etc etc

AlegreFe, confession to god himself in private by them is simply to restore fellowship with him and receive his blessings and friendship.

They believe if they commit mortal sin they will physically die not spiritually.

Also they believe they are already forgiven for all of their sins, they just confess them because they dont want to live sinful lives anymore if that makes sense

 

[FillTheVoid]

You see, I was raised Protestant.

They believe the blood Jesus shed at Calvary was so increadibly potent for the forgiveness of sins all they have to do is accept it.

In that moment they jump out the window the rest of the way down is just the fall, even if you wish and hate the fact you jumped out the window (accepted Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior) and still sin you can’t change the fact you did jump out of the window.

Paid in full is then stamped from beginning to end instantly on their record.

Past Present Future sins however grievous they may be payed in full.

 

[IHS]

=========================================================================== The guarentee we have is Gods Word. Thats enough for me.

 

[FillTheVoid]

Personally I don’t feel like confessing to a priest guarantees me anything because I’m not the one confessing my sins directly to God.

Not to say I have anything against that practice, indeed I will become a Catholic relatively soon.

However, is it acceptable if I confess my sins directly to God himself and then confess to a priest and do penance etc?

 

[AlegreFe]

IHS:

The guarentee we have is Gods Word. Thats enough for me.

You did not read my post did you? You did not understand my question.

AlegreFe:

What kind of “guarentee” do Protestants have if they just say a prayer in a room by themselves that their sins are completely forgiven and therefore now in a state of grace? I know that you trust Jesus Christ to forgive you. So do I. I trust Jesus Christ with all my heart. But we need some kind of GUARENTEE and some kind of sign that we are indeed forgiven. We need an AUTHORITY here on earth that can let us know certain things that were taught to the Apostles straight from Jesus Christ.

So do you wish to elaborate on your guarentee of God’s Word?

 

[AlegreFe]

However, is it acceptable if I confess my sins directly to God himself and then confess to a priest and do penance etc?

:yup: Most absolutely it IS acceptable. As a matter of fact it is a good thing for everyone to do that. We are to make an examination of conscience before we even go to confession.

When we say the prayer of the “Act of Contrition” we are indeed confessing to God first before we even enter the confessional or reconciliation room. That is a very good thing to do every time we go to confession.