Why do Protestants object to Purgatory?

[Mr.Ex_Nihilo]

(2) NONE of the O.T. verses you quoted teach Purgatory, but refer to God’s judgment and discipline of national Israel with a view to bring that nation back to Him. Like I said, don’t just give me Scriptural passages that use the word “fire.”

The let me give you an example of what it means to be refined of one’s impurities in the refiner’s fire…
Refiner's Fire:

Malachi 3:3 says: “He will sit as a refiner and purifier of silver.”

This verse puzzled some women in a Bible study and they wondered what this statement meant about the character and nature of God.

One of the women offered to find out the process of refining silver and get back to the group at their next Bible Study.

That week, the woman called a silversmith and made an appointment to watch him at work. She didn’t mention anything about the reason for her interest beyond her curiosity about the process of refining silver.

As she watched the silversmith, he held a piece of silver over the fire and let it heat up. He explained that in refining silver, one needed to hold the silver in the middle of the fire where the flames were hottest as to burn away all the impurities.

The woman thought about God holding us in such a hot spot; then she thought again about the verse that says: “He sits as a refiner and purifier of silver.”

She asked the silversmith if it was true that he had to sit there in front of the fire the whole time the silver was being refined.

The man answered that yes, he not only had to sit there holding the silver, but he had to keep his eyes on the silver the entire time it was in the fire. If the silver was left a moment too long in the flames, it would be destroyed.

The woman was silent for a moment. Then she asked the silversmith, “How do you know when the silver is fully refined?”

He smiled at her and answered, “Oh, that’s easy – when I see my image in it”

I thought this was a very good eye-opener as to how God refines and purifies us like silver. It’s a perfect illustration of the blood of Christ purifying us in purgatory too.

 

[MariaG]

I actually had started a response to your previous post but see you have since posted this. I will first respond to both since they both have slightly different points, but I will respond to the second post first, since I think it effects the first one too.

III. THE FINAL PURIFICATION OR PURGATORY

1030 All who die in God’s grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified, are indeed assured of their eternal salvation, but after death they undergo purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven.

The Church gives the name Purgatory to this final purification of the elect, which is entirely different from the punishment of the damned. The Church formulated her doctrine of faith on Purgatory especially at the Councils of Florence and Trent. The tradition of the Church, by reference to certain texts of Scripture, speaks of a cleansing fire."As for certain lesser faults, we must believe that, before the Final Judgment, there is a purifying fire. He who is truth says that whoever utters blasphemy against the Holy Spirit will be pardoned neither in this age or in the age to come. From this sentence we understand that certain offenses can be forgiven in this age, but certain others in the age to come."Note here that: (1) your catechism specifically teaches a “cleansing/purifying fire” in Purgatory

Yes, it does. And what does the catechism about how this is done and why this is possible?

601 The Scriptures had foretold this divine plan of salvation through the putting to death of “the righteous one, my Servant” as a mystery of universal redemption, that is, as the ransom that would free men from the slavery of sin.397 Citing a confession of faith that he himself had “received”, St. Paul professes that "Christ died for our sins in accordance with the scriptures."398 In particular Jesus’ redemptive death fulfills Isaiah’s prophecy of the suffering Servant.399 Indeed Jesus himself explained the meaning of his life and death in the light of God’s suffering Servant.400 After his Resurrection he gave this interpretation of the Scriptures to the disciples at Emmaus, and then to the apostles.401

397 Isa 53:11; cf. 53:12; Jn 8:34-36; Acts 3:14.
398 1 Cor 15:3; cf. also Acts 3:18; 7:52; 13:29; 26:22-23.
399 Cf. Isa 53:7-8 and Acts 8:32-35.
400 Cf. Mt 20:28.
401 Cf. Lk 24:25-27, 44-45.

:bible1: Isa 53:11
He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.
I put a link there. Read the section and the accompanying scripture. The Catholic Church fully affirms the whole reason our sins can be forgiven in the first place because of Christ’s death and resurrection, His blood that was shed for us. There is tremendous amount of testimony to this in the Catechism. (In fact read about God the Father and other aspects of Christ before that too, very infomational:thumbsup

The short section specifically about purgatory is AFTER all words about Christ’s death and resurrection. These things are meant to build upon each other. If you jump straight to the section on purgatory, you miss all that built upon this and consequently makes it possible to think that somehow the cleansing fire of purgatory is somehow separate from Christ and His sacrifice. It is not.

(2) There is absolutely no mention of the blood of Christ actually doing the cleansing there, only “fire.”

Again, many, many sections were devoted to Christ’s death and resurrection. The writers of the Catechism would assume that one has read the previous entries as well as the volumes of scripture (not to mention other sources ) that cite many times over Christ’s sacrifice and the blood He shed for us.

(3) Your catechism refences the passage that says blasphemy against the Holy Spirit is pardoned neither in this age or in the age to come, yet your catechism concludes the opposite by stating that certain offenses ARE forgiven in the age to come.

No, it does not conclude the “opposite”. Scripture does not say that there is no sin at all that will be forgiven in the age to come. It says that THIS sin will not be forgiven in the age to come. What it concludes is that since there is one sin that will not be forgiven in this or OR in the age to come, this implicitly implies that there ARE some sins that are possible to be forgiven in the age to come. And this belief is in accord with the practices of the Jews and the Early Christians who would pray for those who have died.

con.

 

[MariaG]

(4) Your catechism references as its Scriptural support 1 Cor. 3:15 and 1Pet. 1:7. But actually, the context of 1 Cor. 3:15 is the future appraisal of the believer’s works by Christ, not sins; and 1 Pet. 1:7 is in reference to the fiery trials of those believers Peter is writing to while here on earth. Neither have anything to do with your doctrine of a purgatorial process after death by a "purifying/cleansing fire

(1) There are absolutely no Scriptures that speak to men being cleansed of sins either by Christ’s blood or fire AFTER death. But it is taught that one’s sins are cleansed by Christ’s blood in this life through faith in Him.

I posted some from the Catechism above so would you agree that the Catholic Church teaches that it is possible for our sins to be forgiven because of Christ’s death and resurrection?

So let’s look at scripture again.

:bible1:Matthew 12:31 Therefore I tell you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven.
32] And whoever says a word against the Son of man will be forgiven; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come.

In this scripture we can see that there is one unforgiveable sin. A sin that never will be forgiven. But we also see something else. We see by implication that there are sins that will be forgiven “in the age to come”

We have shown through scripture, history of the Jews as well as the practices of the Early Christians that the Catholic beliefs are in complete harmony with Scripture.

Scripture also has been interpreted by the Jews and Early Christians to show that there are sins that may be forgiven after death, (in the age to come).

You disagree? That is certainly your choice. But if you wish to convince me of your interpretation of scripture, you need to provide a source other than your own, a source from the Early Christians that shows your interpretation is correct and the Catholic Church isn’t.

I have to go now, I will come back to this, but I have spent much time trying to track down your specific requests.

But I would encourage you to read the section in the catechism, at least starting at 601 and continuing through that section, referencing scripture. Time consuming, I know, but well worth the effort.

I would also be interested in knowing what specific scripture that you so far feel is being contradicted by the interpretation you think we have. Maybe this will better help me and others to find the information you need and feel are missing from the Catholic Catechism since you refuse to accept our testimony on the matter as well as the very learned and acknowledged Catholic apologist Patrick Madrid.

God Bless,
Maria

 

[Montalban]

I’d still like to know why people think God needs to punish people.

 

[Mr.Ex_Nihilo]

Which means God, the never-changing, changes in state from an ‘uninjured’ God, to an ‘injured’ God.

Are you saying Jesus is not God?

Montalban:

I noted that Catholics and Protestants both believe that God needs to be satisfied. The only difference is ‘how?’

So what do the Orthodox believe God is satisfied with?

Montalban:

The point is God never changes.

This makes absolutely no sense-- especially from the perspective of an Orthodox believer.

Jesus, who is true God and true man, died on the cross for our sins. It is by his shed blood that God cleansed us. This is an Orthodox beleif, is it not?

Montalban:

Simply appealing to me ‘just understanding’ doesn’t help. Especially when I state you guys make claims about God, and I cite evidence, such as this from the Summa Theological, which shows this. You seem to admit God changes, by saying we injure God.

No. If you’re going to rally against the divinity of Christ, and likewise rally against Christ dying on the cross for our sins by making the absurd claim that this means that we believe that ‘God changes’, then I’ll just note that you seem to be admitting that you have no idea what your own Othodox faith actually teaches regarding the Son of God…
Fr. John Matusiak:

The faith of the Orthodox Church is that Jesus Christ is fully human, that He is a real man. But we believe as well that Jesus is not a “mere man,” but that He is the eternal, divine Son of God.

By this we mean that from all eternity, before the creation of everything that exists, God Himself existed without beginning, in a manner incomprehensible to men, completely outside the bounds of time and space. In this perfection of divine existence, God the Father always had with Himself His divine Son and His Holy Spirit. Both the Son and the Spirit are exactly what God the Father is, namely perfect, unchanging, every-existing, timeless, spaceless, beyond human comprehension, etc. In a word, whatever can be said or understood about God the Father can be said and understood about the Son (also called the Word, Logos, Wisdom, and Image of God) and the Holy Spirit.

Thus there are Three who are divine, each being what the other is and each being in perfect union and unity with the other. These are the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit: the Holy Trinity.

Now we believe that it is the eternally divine and perfect Son of God who was born as a man from the Virgin Mary and lived on the earth as Jesus of Nazareth, the Messiah (Christ) of Israel and the Savior of the world.

Thus it is the Orthodox faith that Jesus is fully human and fully divine; the Son of God and the Son of Man, one and the same Son.

As the unique divine-human person, Jesus saves the world by teaching the absolute truth of God; by forgiving the evils of all men and the whole world; by suffering and dying in innocence, voluntarily and unjustly on the cross in order to be with all who suffer and die; by rising from the dead in a new and glorified form; by taking our humanity to God in order to make it divine forever; and by sending the Holy Spirit of God to men who believe so that they could teach and do the very things which Jesus Himself both taught and did…that they could, in a word, be sons of God in Him.

Montalban:

I would therefore suggest to you that perhaps it is you who does not understand the implications of Catholic teaching.

Well, you can suggest anythng you like to suggest. In the meantime, I would advise you to examine your own Church’s teachings regarding the incarnation of Christ, who…

a) …is exactly what God the Father is, namely perfect, unchanging, every-existing, timeless, spaceless, beyond human comprehension…

and…

b) …saves the world by forgiving the evils of all men and the whole world by suffering and dying in innocence, voluntarily and unjustly on the cross in order to be with all who suffer and die…

Montalban:

You have God, supreme, but changing.

Again, if you’re going to claim an error in Catholic teachings based on the absurd claim that ‘God changes’, then I’m going to repeat that you actually don’t understand what your own Orthodox faith teaches in regards to Christ as true God and true man.

Montalban:

He’s gone from someone happy with creation, to someone ‘injured’ by sin, who demands ‘satisfaction’.

In one thread, you’ve gone from somone who doesn’t understand the Catholic teaching on purgatory to someone who doesn’t understand the Orthodox teaching on Christ as true God and true man-- the Son of God suffering and dying in innocence, voluntarily and unjustly on the cross in order to be with all who suffer and die.

Are you really so much against the Catholic teaching of purgatory that you’re willing to lose sight of the Orthodox teaching on the divinity of Christ?

This is nonsense.

 

[Mr.Ex_Nihilo]

I’d still like to know why people think God needs to punish people.

I’d still like to know why you think Christ dying on the cross means that God is not unchanging.

I’d also like to know why you think you understand the Catholic teaching purgatory better than Catholics do when you don’t even understand the Orthodox teaching on the divinity of Christ.

I would also like to know why you think purgatory is such an error of Catholicism when Orthodox saints, such as St. John Chrysostom and St. Mark of Ephesus, clearly did not have that much problem with the doctrine.

In addition to this, I’d still like to know why you think people sharing in the suffering of Christ somehow cheapens the effects of the one sacrifice made by Christ.

And I’d also like to know why you still don’t understand that the Catholic doctrine of purgatory points toward the blood of Christ purifying these souls in purgatory even through we’ve explained this over and over again to you many times.

Grace is God’s life within you – and he transforms the whole meaning and direction of your life by indwelling you. In grace, St. Paul declared: “For to me life is Christ, and death is gain” as Philippians 1:21 states].

Ultimately, grace – God’s free gift of himself to you – is life eternal, a life that has already begun. Already, while you are still an earthly pilgrim, grace is “Christ in you, the hope for glory” as Colossians 1:27 clearly states.

At least try to make an effort to understand what we’re saying instead of consistently attempting to force our word to mean something we do not intend to say.

 

[Mr.Ex_Nihilo]

But your view is fantasy having no Divine support and I’m having a hard time finding in your catechism where it actually states that it’s the blood Christ that does the cleansing of sins in Purgatory.

Please give me the paragraph number. Because I have yet to find in your catechism where it is ACTUALLY stated that it is the blood of Christ that ACTUALLY does the cleansing in Purgatory. Everywhere I read it’s fire.

You need to start here before you read about purgatory.

"For our sake God made him to be sin"

602 Consequently, St. Peter can formulate the apostolic faith in the divine plan of salvation in this way: "You were ransomed from the futile ways inherited from your fathers… with the precious blood of Christ, like that of a lamb without blemish or spot. He was destined before the foundation of the world but was made manifest at the end of the times for your sake."402 Man’s sins, following on original sin, are punishable by death.403 By sending his own Son in the form of a slave, in the form of a fallen humanity, on account of sin, God "made him to be sin who knew no sin, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God."404

And again here…

**At the Last Supper Jesus anticipated the free offering of his life **

610 Jesus gave the supreme expression of his free offering of himself at the meal shared with the twelve Apostles “on the night he was betrayed”.429 On the eve of his Passion, while still free, Jesus transformed this Last Supper with the apostles into the memorial of his voluntary offering to the Father for the salvation of men: “This is my body which is given for you.” **“This is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins.”**430

And here…

Christ’s death is the unique and definitive sacrifice

613 Christ’s death is both the Paschal sacrifice that accomplishes the definitive redemption of men, through “the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world”,439 and the sacrifice of the New Covenant, which restores man to communion with God by reconciling him to God through the **“blood of the covenant, which was poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins”.**440

All throughout the earlier sections we see the blood of Christ being required for the cleansing of our sins-- if you’d care to look closer…

ARTICLE 4:
"JESUS CHRIST SUFFERED UNDER PONTIUS PILATE,
WAS CRUCIFIED, DIED, AND WAS BURIED"

The small section on purgatory, however, does not come until much later…

**ARTICLE 12:
“I BELIEVE IN LIFE EVERLASTING” **

Here’s the entire outline for closer look…

 

[Mr.Ex_Nihilo]

If it’s truly the blood of Chirst’s cross that cleanses in Purgatory then there should be no pain involved…

Then why do the Scriptures repeatedly say that our testing before God will be a painful experience, like gold being refined of impurities through fire?
Psalm 66:10:

For you, O God, tested us; you refined us like silver.

Isaiah 48:10:

See, I have refined you, though not as silver; I have tested you in the furnace of affliction.

Jeremiah 9:7:

Therefore this is what the LORD Almighty says: “See, I will refine and test them, for what else can I do because of the sin of my people?”

Daniel 11:35:

Some of the wise will stumble, so that they may be refined, purified and made spotless until the time of the end, for it will still come at the appointed time.

Daniel 12:10:

Many will be purified, made spotless and refined, but the wicked will continue to be wicked. None of the wicked will understand, but those who are wise will understand.

Zechariah 13:9:

This third I will bring into the fire; I will refine them like silver and test them like gold. They will call on my name and I will answer them; I will say, ‘They are my people,’ and they will say, ‘The LORD is our God.’ "

Malachi 3:2-4:

But who can endure the day of his coming?

Who can stand when he appears?

For he will be like a refiner’s fire or a launderer’s soap. He will sit as a refiner and purifier of silver; he will purify the Levites and refine them like gold and silver.

Then the LORD will have men who will bring offerings in righteousness, and the offerings of Judah and Jerusalem will be acceptable to the LORD, as in days gone by, as in former years.

1 Corinthians 3:11-13:

For no one can lay any foundation other than the one already laid, which is Jesus Christ.

If any man builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw, his work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each man’s work.

If what he has built survives, he will receive his reward. If it is burned up, he will suffer loss; he himself will be saved, but only as one escaping through the flames.

1 Peter 1:7:

These have come so that your faith—of greater worth than gold, which perishes even though refined by fire—may be proved genuine and may result in praise, glory and honor when Jesus Christ is revealed.

Hebrews 12:11:

No discipline seems pleasant at the time, but painful. Later on, however, it produces a harvest of righteousness and peace for those who have been trained by it.

1 Peter 4:12:

Dear friends, do not be surprised at the painful trial you are suffering, as though something strange were happening to you.

apophasis:

…no fearful experience to dread…

But, according to Psalm 111:10, isn’t the fear of the LORD the beginning of wisdom?

Do not all who follow his precepts have good understanding?

Does not eternal praise belong to them?

This isn’t a fearful experience to dread.

It is a healthy fear which glorifies God as follows…
Psalm 2:11:

Serve the LORD with fear and rejoice with trembling.

Psalm 19:9:

The fear of the LORD is pure, enduring forever. The ordinances of the LORD are sure and altogether righteous.

Psalm 22:23:

You who fear the LORD, praise him! All you descendants of Jacob, honor him! Revere him, all you descendants of Israel!

Psalm 25:14:

The LORD confides in those who fear him; he makes his covenant known to them.

Psalm 33:8:

Let all the earth fear the LORD; let all the people of the world revere him.

Psalm 34:9:

Fear the LORD, you his saints, for those who fear him lack nothing.

Psalm 34:11:

Come, my children, listen to me; I will teach you the fear of the LORD.

I could go on with this, but i think you see my point.

It’s true that the fear of the LORD the beginning of wisdom. But, in order to get a balanced view, according to 1 John 4:18, there is no fear in love. Indeed, perfect love drives out fear, because fear has to do with punishment. The one who fears is not made perfect in love.

That’s purgatory.

The blood of Christ purges our inner being, like gold being refined of impurities in the refiner’s fire, transforming our inner fears of punishment, transfiguring us into the likeness of God’s son, so that our fears are perfectly transformed into a rejoicing to partake in the sufferings of Jesus our Lord through his divine love.

 

[apophasis]

The Catholic Church fully affirms the whole reason our sins can be forgiven in the first place because of Christ’s death and resurrection, His blood that was shed for us. There is tremendous amount of testimony to this in the Catechism. (In fact read about God the Father and other aspects of Christ before that too, very infomational:thumbsup

The short section specifically about purgatory is AFTER all words about Christ’s death and resurrection. These things are meant to build upon each other. If you jump straight to the section on purgatory, you miss all that built upon this and consequently makes it possible to think that somehow the cleansing fire of purgatory is somehow separate from Christ and His sacrifice. It is not.

Maria, you’re actually pointing out the blatant inconsistency of the teachings of your church. Like I said in a previous post, what it builds up it tears down. What it gives it takes away. It recognizes the blood of Christ to cleanse men of all sins, but then ignores that fundamental, Scriptural truth and places its devotees in Purgatory after death having to suffer there, themselves, in order to be cleansed BY FIRE. A concept totally foreign to Scripture.

No Maria, your catechism does not build one concept upon another, it constantly contradicts one concept with another.

It says that THIS sin will not be forgiven in the age to come. What it concludes is that since there is one sin that will not be forgiven in this or OR in the age to come, this implicitly implies that there ARE some sins that are possible to be forgiven in the age to come.

It concludes no such thing. It cites only ONE sin and that against the Holy Spirit. And “the age to come” is not the life AFTER death but this Church age and/or the Millennial age yet to come. Blasphemy against the Holy Spirit is unforgiveable in any age here on earth because it entails unbelief.

 

[Pryority7]

What does it matter if it’s a place or process? It’s still a process that takes place somewhere after this life. But tell me, from where did JPII get his information? What was his divine source?Then prove to me based on divine revelation the validity of this “process?” You seem to theologize a lot on a “process” which neither Christ or His Apostles knew anything about. How is it YOU have detailed information when those who should have been in the know, knew nothing of it?

You’re not correct in stating that the “process” of cleansing happens after this life. The process of cleansing happens NOW. It is only after death that the process is completed. It’s called sanctification, a part of the Christian walk which at times will involved suffering not because we may nessesarily deserve it, but because it may be a part of our sharing in the sufferings of Christ, which IS scriptual, and in no way states that we will be completely sinless BEFORE we die, which is NOT scriptual. ( 1 John 1:8)
Tell me, John, at what point in your life before you die do you think God will declare you ‘sinless’? Scripture being truth and all, scripture would also not contradict truth and logic. Being sinless before death is not only illogical, it is unscriptual…so what happens to our sin? Does it just disappear? Who’s Harry Potter now?
Dude, please open your mind a bit man…we’re all on the same side here. Use common sense. I know the whole thing about being “declared” righteous…I got it…but Jesus didn’t say, “be DELCARED perfect, as your Heavenly Father is perfect” He said, "BE PERFECT, as your heavenly Father IS perfect. This ‘perfecting’ takes time, and after death it is finally completed…in purgatory.
P7

 

[MariaG]

Maria, you’re actually pointing out the blatant inconsistency of the teachings of your church. Like I said in a previous post, what it builds up it tears down. What it gives it takes away. It recognizes the blood of Christ to cleanse men of all sins, but then ignores that fundamental, Scriptural truth and places its devotees in Purgatory after death having to suffer there, themselves, in order to be cleansed BY FIRE. A concept totally foreign to Scripture.

Which scripture does it contradicts if the church says that the manner in which God chooses to cleanse us with Christ’s blood is through fire?

Please be very specific?

No Maria, your catechism does not build one concept upon another, it constantly contradicts one concept with another.It concludes no such thing. It cites only ONE sin and that against the Holy Spirit. And “the age to come” is not the life AFTER death but this Church age and/or the Millennial age yet to come. Blasphemy against the Holy Spirit is unforgiveable in any age here on earth because it entails unbelief

You say it contradicts only because you disagree with the interpretation. Respectfully, why should I believe your interpretation over that of a church that can show it’s interpretation is consistent with the teachings of the Early Christians.

This is your interpretation of what “the age to come”. Respectfully, we disagree with you.

Scripture warns us of those who will come along with false teachings. The concept of purgatory has it’s roots in Jewish religion and can be seen in the Early Church (The Roots of Purgatory). Please show me that your interpretation is not a false one that has come along.

Right now, all you keep saying is that no, you are wrong, that is not what scripture means. Respectfully, you have yet to show specifically which scripture is contradicted by the Catholic Church saying that the because of Christ’s sacrifice, we are cleansed as if through fire. And this is brought to you by CHRIST"S SHED BLOOD, His death and resurrection.

What scripture contradicts our teaching of purgatory or what you think our teaching is. Specifically.

May God Bless you and keep you safe.

Maria

 

[apophasis]

Which scripture does it contradicts if the church says that the manner in which God chooses to cleanse us with Christ’s blood is through fire?

Please be very specific?

There are no Scriptures that say God “chooses” to cleanse us after death with Christ’s blood THROUGH FIRE. And your catechism nowhere teaches that sins are cleansed by the blood of Christ in Purgatory, but instead by purifying/cleansing FIRE. There is absolutely no mention in the CCC of sins being cleansed by the blood of Christ in Purgatory. You’re stating this, not your catechism.

You either don’t want to face the inconsistent teaching of the CCC, or you personally refuse to accept what it teaches for the sake of being comfortable with Catholicism.

 

[apophasis]

You’re not correct in stating that the “process” of cleansing happens after this life. The process of cleansing happens NOW. It is only after death that the process is completed.

This does not change the facts brought out in my arguments. There are no Scriptures that speak of a sanctifying process AFTER death.

 

[MariaG]

There are no Scriptures that say God “chooses” to cleanse us after death with Christ’s blood THROUGH FIRE. And your catechism nowhere teaches that sins are cleansed by the blood of Christ in Purgatory, but instead by purifying/cleansing FIRE. There is absolutely no mention in the CCC of sins being cleansed by the blood of Christ in Purgatory. You’re stating this, not your catechism.

You either don’t want to face the inconsistent teaching of the CCC, or you personally refuse to accept what it teaches for the sake of being comfortable with Catholicism.

Respectfully, I am trying to answer your question and show to you the anwer from the Catechism. But you need to specifically give me a bible verse that contradicts the teaching that we are purified through a cleansing fire.

I cannot answer to something when you will not show me what this teaching specifically contradicts. I say that the Catechism builds on itself. You disagree. Fine. Let’s work at it from a different angle.

Show me the specific scripture that contradicts the teaching that we are purified with a cleansing fire.

I will take the time to search more on this for you, but frankly, without some specifics from you, I don’t know how much more I can give you. You do not wish to believe us when we try to explain our own beliefs. So be more specific with yours. WHere in scripture is the contradiction of Catholic teachings of purgatory?

Did you actually read the Catechism where Mr. Ex Nihlo and I said to concerning the forgiveness bought for us by Christ’s death and resurrection?

What scripture is contradicted by the cleansing fire purifying us. A cleansing fire that was bought by His death and resurrection?

God Bless,
Maria

 

[MariaG]

This does not change the facts brought out in my arguments. There are no Scriptures that speak of a sanctifying process AFTER death.

Again not true. You disagree with the interpretation of scripture provided but have yet to prove the authority behind your interpretation. I claim the Holy Spirit guiding, I would assume you do to. I provide historical evidence from writings of the Early Church, you only provide your testimony.

Respectfully,
Maria

 

[jmcrae]

I’d still like to know why people think God needs to punish people.

It isn’t “punishment.” It’s purification. A vastly different concept.

It’s the difference between the prison and the monastery - both the monk and the prisoner have to live in a cell; both the monk and the prisoner live according to an extreme regime of hard physical work, plain bread to eat, and water to drink.

The difference is that the monk is training himself in holiness, while the prisoner is being punished for crimes against society. The monk makes his work a prayer and gives of his work in love, while the prisoner curses his lot - the monk gives himself up for God, while the prisoner has everything he ever was taken away from him.

Purgatory is like the monastery; Hell is like the prison. Identical to each other in every respect except the purposes for which they exist: Purgatory is for purification and training of the soul in Sainthood. Hell is for punishment.

 

[Mr.Ex_Nihilo]

There are no Scriptures that say God “chooses” to cleanse us after death with Christ’s blood THROUGH FIRE. And your catechism nowhere teaches that sins are cleansed by the blood of Christ in Purgatory, but instead by purifying/cleansing FIRE. There is absolutely no mention in the CCC of sins being cleansed by the blood of Christ in Purgatory. You’re stating this, not your catechism.

1. What symbols are used to represent the Holy Spirit?

694-701

There are many symbols of the Holy Spirit: living water which springs from the wounded Heart of Christ and which quenches the thirst of the baptized; anointing with oil, which is the sacramental sign of Confirmation; fire which transforms what it touches; the cloud, dark or luminous, in which the divine glory is revealed; the imposition of hands by which the Holy Spirit is given; the dove which descended on Christ at his baptism and remained with him.

1. From where do the sacramental signs come?

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Some come from created things (light, water, fire, bread, wine, oil); others come from social life (washing, anointing, breaking of bread). Still others come from the history of salvation in the Old Covenant (the Passover rites, the sacrifices, the laying on of hands, the consecrations). These signs, some of which are normative and unchangeable, were taken up by Christ and are made the bearers of his saving and sanctifying action.

1. How is Jesus’ offering expressed at the Last Supper?

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At the Last Supper with his apostles on the eve of his passion Jesus anticipated, that is, both symbolized his free self-offering and made it really present: “This is my Body which is given for you” (Luke 22:19), **“This is my Blood which is poured out…” **(Matthew 26:28) Thus he both instituted the Eucharist as the “memorial” (1 Corinthians 11:25) of his sacrifice and instituted his apostles as priests of the new covenant.

1. Why is the Church called the “Bride of Christ”?

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She is called the “Bride of Christ” because the Lord himself called himself her “Spouse” (Mark 2:19). The Lord has loved the Church and has joined her to himself in an everlasting covenant. He has given himself up for her in order to purify her with his blood and “sanctify her” (Ephesians 5:26), making her the fruitful mother of all the children of God. While the term “body” expresses the unity of the “head” with the members, the term “bride” emphasizes the distinction of the two in their personal relationship.

apophasis:

You either don’t want to face the inconsistent teaching of the CCC, or you personally refuse to accept what it teaches for the sake of being comfortable with Catholicism.

Honestly?

I just think you’re not interested in our explanations-- or the summarized explanations from our own Catechism either.

 

[Mr.Ex_Nihilo]

You’re not correct in stating that the “process” of cleansing happens after this life. The process of cleansing happens NOW. It is only after death that the process is completed. It’s called sanctification, a part of the Christian walk which at times will involved suffering not because we may nessesarily deserve it, but because it may be a part of our sharing in the sufferings of Christ, which IS scriptual, and in no way states that we will be completely sinless BEFORE we die, which is NOT scriptual. ( 1 John 1:8)
Tell me, John, at what point in your life before you die do you think God will declare you ‘sinless’? Scripture being truth and all, scripture would also not contradict truth and logic. Being sinless before death is not only illogical, it is unscriptual…so what happens to our sin? Does it just disappear? Who’s Harry Potter now?
Dude, please open your mind a bit man…we’re all on the same side here. Use common sense. I know the whole thing about being “declared” righteous…I got it…but Jesus didn’t say, “be DELCARED perfect, as your Heavenly Father is perfect” He said, "BE PERFECT, as your heavenly Father IS perfect. This ‘perfecting’ takes time, and after death it is finally completed…in purgatory.
P7

Very well said.

I think it could be summed up with Hebrews 10:13-15…

Since that time he waits for his enemies to be made his footstool, because by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy.

This indicates that we are in the process of being made holy by the one perfect sacrifice of Jesus on the cross. It does not indicate, however, that we are already perfect.

This is the same as 1 Corinthians 13:9-11 which states…

For we know in part and we prophesy in part, but when perfection comes, the imperfect disappears.

Matthew 5:48 says to be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect. But even the most conservative evangelicals understands that the better translation is be perfect-ed, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

The later is in the process of perfecting in the former, even as the former is being perfected by the later-- generally indicating a process no different than that of the conclusion of Philippians 2:12-13, which says to continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling, for it is God who works in you to will and to act according to his good purpose.

 

[Mr.Ex_Nihilo]

…and no one in the past should have paid money to the church in order to get out of that “process” early, either for himself or a loved one. Yet they did. Why???

First you need to understand that there are more than a few myths about indulgences.

Then you should read a primer on indulgences.

Then, once you’ve read through both these articles, I recommend that you read an even more detailed explanation of what an indulgence is not and what an indulgence actually is.

The life of each of God’s children is joined in Christ and through Christ in a wonderful way to the life of all the other Christian brethren in the supernatural unity of the Mystical Body of Christ, as in a single mystical person’

Catechism of the Catholic Church 1474
Indulgentarium Doctrina 5​

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By the way, long before the Reformation, the Holy Church not only recognized the existence of the abuse of indulgences, but also used her authority to correct them-- despite Reformist claims to the contrary.

 

[apophasis]

Respectfully, I am trying to answer your question and show to you the anwer from the Catechism. But you need to specifically give me a bible verse that contradicts the teaching that we are purified through a cleansing fire.

I cannot answer to something when you will not show me what this teaching specifically contradicts. I say that the Catechism builds on itself. You disagree. Fine. Let’s work at it from a different angle.

Show me the specific scripture that contradicts the teaching that we are purified with a cleansing fire.

I will take the time to search more on this for you, but frankly, without some specifics from you, I don’t know how much more I can give you. You do not wish to believe us when we try to explain our own beliefs. So be more specific with yours. WHere in scripture is the contradiction of Catholic teachings of purgatory?

Did you actually read the Catechism where Mr. Ex Nihlo and I said to concerning the forgiveness bought for us by Christ’s death and resurrection?

What scripture is contradicted by the cleansing fire purifying us. A cleansing fire that was bought by His death and resurrection?

God Bless,
Maria

Maria, Purgatory is the teaching of MEN, not the written Word of God. The doctrine came into the church AFTER the Apostolic age, hence, it is not an Apostolic doctrine. In fact Paul himself wrote:2 Cor 5:6-9 “Therefore, being always of good courage, and knowing that while we are at home in the body we are absent from the Lord-- for we walk by faith, not by sight-- we are of good courage, I say, and prefer rather to be absent from the body and to be at home with the Lord. Therefore we also have as our ambition, whether at home or absent, to be pleasing to Him” (cf. Phil. 1:23).In other words, there is no sanctifying “process” for the believer after death. Because God has once for all dealt with his sins through the sacrificial blood of Christ’s cross, and the believer is now “in Christ,” and at death goes directly Home to be with his Lord. The only thing left is to be united with his eventually, resurrected body.

The whole concept of Purgatory is non-biblical, and just those few passages above, written by Paul, dispel the myth completely. Much less the whole Biblical teaching of the cross of Christ, which this man-made doctrine of Purgatory militates against.

Obviously I can’t present any Scriptures that specifically teach against your beloved doctrine of Purgatorial fires because the whole concept is post-Apostolic, man-made and NON-BIBICAL. The Scriptures know nothing of it!!! It’s like telling me to show you where in the Scriptures it actually says the moon is not made of green cheese!

You, on the other hand, keep trying to say the blood of Christ is involved with the fiery, purifying “process” of Rome’s Purgatory. But this is stated NOWHERE in its own catechism. So your idea of Purgatory is not only NON-BIBLICAL but NON-CATHOLIC as well. But I guess one can do this when something is NON-EXISTENT anyway.

No matter how hard you try, Maria, you cannot* Protestantize* something as uniquely Catholic as their doctrine of Purgatory. What you need to do is either fully accept their doctrine the way they teach it, or deny it and fully accept what Christ has done for you on the cross. The latter corresponds to a true, Biblical faith.