Why do Protestants object to Purgatory?

[Pryority7]

This does not change the facts brought out in my arguments. There are no Scriptures that speak of a sanctifying process AFTER death.

Respectfully I must state that it DOES NOT MATTER that Scripture does not SPECIFICALLY speak of a sanctifying process after death. The scriptures do not SPECIFICALLY speak of…
1.The Trinity
2.Original Sin
3.The Incarnation

I understand your Sola Scriptura position, but it doesn’t make it anyless true, no matter what you say or post. Truth is bigger than both of us. The scriptures we use to teach the above doctrines are the same scriptures that were used to teach these same doctrines since the beginning of the Church.
Open your mind! And your heart.

P7

 

[Pryority7]

2 Cor 5:6-9 “Therefore, being always of good courage, and knowing that while we are at home in the body we are absent from the Lord-- for we walk by faith, not by sight-- we are of good courage, I say, and prefer rather to be absent from the body and to be at home with the Lord. Therefore we also have as our ambition, whether at home or absent, to be pleasing to Him” (cf. Phil. 1:23).

Good quote John. However, the following should be noted:

1. No one would deny that any Catholic much less Christian would rather be with the Lord than in the body. Heaven is the ultimate goal of all of us, not so much Purgatory, which can be considered the “beginning of Heaven” and therefore with the Lord anyway…
2. Paul is actually speaking concerning himself in comparison to the community of early Christians around him who still wanted to hold on to this life and were not living particularly “heavenly minded”. Remember, the Corinthians were quite carnal.
3. Paul is expressing a DESIRE, which is subjective and not bound by any truth or untruth for that matter. The existence of Purgatory is not negated by Pauls’ personal wish to be immediatley with Christ.

4.If a person says, “I want to go home and eat dinner”, that does not mean that the person can just walk through the door of his house and eat dinner. In the case of a single person, he must go and MAKE dinner first before he can eat dinner.

1. I noticed how you nicely ommitted verses 9 and 10 which state:
   “So whether we are at home or away, we make it our aim to please Him. For we must all appear before the judgement seat of Christ, so that each one may receive good or evil, according to what he has done in the body.”
   Kind of hints at the “saved by grace PLUS works” concept you just happen to reject, huh? At the Judgement seat of Christ, we will have an ACCOUNT to give for what we have done in the body…has it ever occured to you that this might be part of the purging process of us being removed from the presence of sin which is Purgatory?

Go ahead now…refute this…I know you will.

P7

 

[colliric]

Respectfully I must state that it DOES NOT MATTER that Scripture does not SPECIFICALLY speak of a sanctifying process after death. The scriptures do not SPECIFICALLY speak of…
1.The Trinity
2.Original Sin
3.The Incarnation

I understand your Sola Scriptura position, but it doesn’t make it anyless true, no matter what you say or post. Truth is bigger than both of us. The scriptures we use to teach the above doctrines are the same scriptures that were used to teach these same doctrines since the beginning of the Church.
Open your mind! And your heart.

P7

Sola Scriptura is a fundamentally flawed doctrine about how to interpret the bible. It says the bible is the be all and end all, when in fact it is only the beginning of the teachigns of Jesus and the Apostles, and although it is the main source for use to use, it is only the starting point as there is an entire wealth of written and verbally communicated traditions and teachings from the Apostles.

I agree with you.

Sola Scriptura does not have any basis for Sunday Worship either, that was Catholic Church infallible doctrine as the understanding of the faith developed. By the rule of Sola Scriptura, there is nothing in the bible which says Sunday worship, if anything it supports the Adventist point of view, Sabbath worship.

If any protestant says “such and such doctrine is not in the scripture” any catholic has the right to respond “Well then stop worshiping on Sunday…”

 

[MariaG]

Maria, Purgatory is the teaching of MEN, not the written Word of God. The doctrine came into the church AFTER the Apostolic age, hence, it is not an Apostolic doctrine. In fact Paul himself wrote:2 Cor 5:6-9 “Therefore, being always of good courage, and knowing that while we are at home in the body we are absent from the Lord-- for we walk by faith, not by sight-- we are of good courage, I say, and prefer rather to be absent from the body and to be at home with the Lord. Therefore we also have as our ambition, whether at home or absent, to be pleasing to Him” (cf. Phil. 1:23).In other words, there is no sanctifying “process” for the believer after death. Because God has once for all dealt with his sins through the sacrificial blood of Christ’s cross, and the believer is now “in Christ,” and at death goes directly Home to be with his Lord. The only thing left is to be united with his eventually, resurrected body.

The whole concept of Purgatory is non-biblical, and just those few passages above, written by Paul, dispel the myth completely. Much less the whole Biblical teaching of the cross of Christ, which this man-made doctrine of Purgatory militates against.
.

How? It has been said Repeatedly that that there is not time element to purgatory in the official teachings of the Catholic Church. Many believe it will be instantaneous because of that verse you quote. This dispels nothing and only shows that you still have not heard the explanations of what purgatory is and what it isn’t. Again, most catholics tend to think of it as having a “time” element, but the teaching of purgatory does not specify time. It is acknowledged that these verses may in fact be literal and that one may be absent from the body and present with the Lord. If that is the case then this purification happens instantly when one dies.

Obviously I can’t present any Scriptures that specifically teach against your beloved doctrine of Purgatorial fires because the whole concept is post-Apostolic, man-made and NON-BIBICAL. The Scriptures know nothing of it!!! It’s like telling me to show you where in the Scriptures it actually says the moon is not made of green cheese!

Surely if you are so postive that something is unbiblical, you can show me where scripture contradicts it.

You claim it is a man-made post-apostolic doctrine yet this is in complete contradiction to the historical fact that purgatory is actually a Jewish belief present well before the birth of Christ. You can underline your words all you want. It does not change the truth of the historical fact of the Jewish roots of Purgatory.

You, on the other hand, keep trying to say the blood of Christ is involved with the fiery, purifying “process” of Rome’s Purgatory. But this is stated NOWHERE in its own catechism. So your idea of Purgatory is not only NON-BIBLICAL but NON-CATHOLIC as well. But I guess one can do this when something is NON-EXISTENT anyway.

Well you can certainly ignore all the Mr. Ex Nihlo posted that speaks directly to this. It is stated repeatedly. You apparently have to much invested in protesting the Catholic Church to acknowledge this truth. Guess what? You can admit that you misunderstood this, admit that purgatory is possible without believing we are right about anything else. You can even believe we are wrong to think this purgation will happen at death and has already happened the moment one believes.

Why can’t you admit that purgatory is biblical even after all the evidence from the Catechism showing you that this is because of His blood? Admitting that doesn’t mean you will be joining the Catholic church.

Are you so committed to the Catholic Church being 100% wrong that you can’t acknowledge something we got right?

No matter how hard you try, Maria, you cannot* Protestantize* something as uniquely Catholic as their doctrine of Purgatory. What you need to do is either fully accept their doctrine the way they teach it, or deny it and fully accept what Christ has done for you on the cross. The latter corresponds to a true, Biblical faith

I don’t have to Protestantize purgatory. Purgatory and the cleansing blood of Christ is completely and 100% Christian. The Church CLEARLY talks of the sacrifice of Christ and His blood, the only way this purifying fire takes place is becaus of His Blood and this IS in the Catechism.

You are wrong and misunderstood what purgatory is all about. The cleansing fire is only possible because of Christ’s death and resurrection.

May God bless you and keep you safe. May God deny Satan and his demons from blinding you from the truth of the teachings of the Catholic Church. May the HolySpirit shine the light of truth in your heart.

Maria

 

[Montalban]

I’d still like to know why you think Christ dying on the cross means that God is not unchanging.

Then you confuse the nature of God and Man that is in Jesus.

Many JWs, Moslems etc, object to the Christian notions of Jesus on the cross, saying “How can God die”, well God didn’t. God can’t die. Maybe you think He can. Hence your argument displays a confusion about the nature of God.

I’d also like to know why you think you understand the Catholic teaching purgatory better than Catholics do when you don’t even understand the Orthodox teaching on the divinity of Christ.

Because you simply demonstrate a confusion of argument by saying that both God is seeking ‘justification’ and that He’s not.

I would also like to know why you think purgatory is such an error of Catholicism when Orthodox saints, such as St. John Chrysostom and St. Mark of Ephesus, clearly did not have that much problem with the doctrine.

We don’t have a ‘cult of personality’ in the East, EVEN IF such said this, doesn’t make it true. Even your great Augustine made errors. However, simply claiming this of the like of John Chrysostomon is not uncommon an argument to make. Misquoting him is easy for you too. Purgatory is, for you, a place where the dead are punished until God is satisfied. For us, if a place exists for the dead, that is a half-way place to heaven, it is not a place for punishment until God is satisfied, because God does not need to be ‘satisfied’.

Some believe in ‘toll-houses’, but this is not ‘purgatory’.
orthodoxinfo.com/death/critic.aspx

Thus it’s a tremendous leap to say that Orthodox who believe in some kind of state after death, before heaven, believe in purgatory. If you believe it’s the same, then limbo, and purgatory are the same (as they are both states after death, not being heaven).

In addition to this, I’d still like to know why you think people sharing in the suffering of Christ somehow cheapens the effects of the one sacrifice made by Christ.

Because Christ doesn’t require us to suffer for the purposes for making up some kind of celestial account balance (a ledger of good -v- bad deeds)

And I’d also like to know why you still don’t understand that the Catholic doctrine of purgatory points toward the blood of Christ purifying these souls in purgatory even through we’ve explained this over and over again to you many times.

Because God doesn’t need to be ‘satisfied’.

Grace is God’s life within you – and he transforms the whole meaning and direction of your life by indwelling you. In grace, St. Paul declared: “For to me life is Christ, and death is gain” as Philippians 1:21 states].

Ultimately, grace – God’s free gift of himself to you – is life eternal, a life that has already begun. Already, while you are still an earthly pilgrim, grace is “Christ in you, the hope for glory” as Colossians 1:27 clearly states.

At least try to make an effort to understand what we’re saying instead of consistently attempting to force our word to mean something we do not intend to say.

Again taking the emotional high-ground doesn’t help your argument.
See
orthodoxinfo.com/death/stmark_purg.aspx

For reference:
John Chrysostom’s works are believed by Catholics to contain support for purgatory. Most cite Homily on First Corinthians (Homily XLI:5); and Homily on Philippians (Homily III:9-10)
found at
ccel.org/fathers2/NPNF1-12/npnf1-12-46.htm#P2045_1241176
and
ccel.org/fathers2/NPNF1-13/npnf1-13-36.htm#P1629_940292
respectively

In the first, the great saint doesn’t mention fire at all.

 

[Mr.Ex_Nihilo]

Then you confuse the nature of God and Man that is in Jesus.

Many JWs, Moslems etc, object to the Christian notions of Jesus on the cross, saying “How can God die”, well God didn’t. God can’t die. Maybe you think He can. Hence your argument displays a confusion about the nature of God.

Because you simply demonstrate a confusion of argument by saying that both God is seeking ‘justification’ and that He’s not.

Did Jesus die on the cross for our sins our not?

Is Jesus God or is Jesus not God?

Montalban:

We don’t have a ‘cult of personality’ in the East, EVEN IF such said this, doesn’t make it true.

If?

Montalban:

Even your great Augustine made errors. However, simply claiming this of the like of John Chrysostomon is not uncommon an argument to make.

Are you saying that John Chrysostom made a mistake when he talked about this?

Montalban:

Misquoting him is easy for you too.

But I haven’t misquoted him. I haven’t misquoted John Chrysostom. Nor have I mistquoted St. Mark of Ephesus either.

Montalban:

Purgatory is, for you, a place where the dead are punished until God is satisfied.

No. In the most raw sense, purgatory is the process of one’s soul being purified by the blood of Christ as one passes into heaven. Purgatory is a transformation of the soul.

Montalban:

For us, if a place exists for the dead, that is a half-way place to heaven, it is not a place for punishment until God is satisfied, because God does not need to be ‘satisfied’.

Perhaps Pope Benedict XVI’s description of purgatory would help you to understand how much we are in agreement here. James Akin notes Pope Benedict XVI’s thoughts (when the Pope was known as Cardinal Ratzinger) here…

Purgatory is not, as Tertullian thought, some kind of supra-worldly concentration camp where one is forced to undergo punishments in a more or less arbitrary fashion. Rather it is the inwardly necessary process of transformation in which a person becomes capable of Christ, capable of God * and thus capable of unity with the whole communion of saints. Simply to look at people with any degree of realism at all is to grasp the necessity of such a process. It does not replace grace by works, but allows the former to achieve its full victory precisely as grace. What actually saves is the full assent of faith. But in most of us, that basic option is buried under a great deal of wood, hay and straw. Only with difficulty can it peer out from behind the latticework of an egoism we are powerless to pull down with our own hands. Man is the recipient of the divine mercy, yet this does not exonerate him from the need to be transformed. Encounter with the Lord [is] this transformation. It is the fire that burns away our dross and re-forms us to be vessels of eternal joy.*

 

[Mr.Ex_Nihilo]

contnued

Montalban:

Some believe in ‘toll-houses’, but this is not ‘purgatory’.
orthodoxinfo.com/death/critic.aspx

So the Orthodox ascetic teaching on the demonic toll-houses encountered by the soul after death doesn’t cheapen the sacrifice of Jesus on the cross, but purgatory does?

Montalban:

Thus it’s a tremendous leap to say that Orthodox who believe in some kind of state after death, before heaven, believe in purgatory.

No. It’s not. We’re talking about a very similar process in which the soul is cleansed after the physical body has died. We both believe this to be true.

If you believe it’s the same, then limbo, and purgatory are the same (as they are both states after death, not being heaven).

Limbo has never been defined as an official doctrine of the Catholic Church. Besides that, if someone were to go into Limbo, then this would be the opposite of purgatory in the sense that the pure soul in Limbo never actually gets to heaven but the purged soul in purgatory does. I’m with Pope Benedict XVI’s thoughts on limbo by the way-- limbo is a hypothetical theory whereas purgatory is actually a divinely revealed truth.

Montalban:

Because Christ doesn’t require us to suffer for the purposes for making up some kind of celestial account balance (a ledger of good -v- bad deeds)

We’re sharing in his suffering to glorify his name as he transfigures us into his likeness in purgatory.

Montalban:

Because God doesn’t need to be ‘satisfied’.

He was pleased with his Son, wasn’t he?

If he was pleased with Jesus, then he was satisfied with Jesus.

Montalban:

Again taking the emotional high-ground doesn’t help your argument.

See
orthodoxinfo.com/death/stmark_purg.aspx

And deliberately ignoring our explanations does not an intelligent conversation make.

This has been explained to you Montalban. But you’re not really interested in listening to us, are you?

You are indeed more concerned with super-imposing your own misconceptions about the Catholic doctrine of purgatory than actually listening to the explanations that Catholics themselves have offered to you.

Montalban:

In the first, the great saint doesn’t mention fire at all.

He mentions that our offerings for the dead bring them some consolation. Consolation from what?

 

[apophasis]

How? It has been said Repeatedly that that there is not time element to purgatory in the official teachings of the Catholic Church. Many believe it will be instantaneous because of that verse you quote. This dispels nothing and only shows that you still have not heard the explanations of what purgatory is and what it isn’t. Again, most catholics tend to think of it as having a “time” element, but the teaching of purgatory does not specify time. It is acknowledged that these verses may in fact be literal and that one may be absent from the body and present with the Lord. If that is the case then this purification happens instantly when one dies.

It’a amazing how you’ll distort even the words of Paul in order to hang on to your beloved doctrine. What’s even more amazing to me is the power of unbelief. ** (1)** Paul says absolutely nothing about a detour but you insert one to conform his teaching to your man-made tradition. (2) Your catechism states nothing about the blood of Christ as a cleansing agent in Purgatory, but you insert that idea into it in order to Protestantize the tradition.

Surely if you are so postive that something is unbiblical, you can show me where scripture contradicts it.

The cross itself totally contradicts it. The clear teaching of Paul that to be absent from the body is to be at Home with the Lord contradicts it. Paul’s teaching of who the true believer is now “in Christ” totally contradicts it.

You claim it is a man-made post-apostolic doctrine yet this is in complete contradiction to the historical fact that purgatory is actually a Jewish belief present well before the birth of Christ.

No it wasn’t. Some Jews were greatly influenced by Greek philosophy, but there is absolutely no teaching of such a doctrine in the Tenach. Ex Nihilo tried to cite a few O.T. Scriptures but took them way out of context with an allegorical interpretation. But nowhere in the O.T. is your beloved tradition literally taught. The O.T. anticipated the once for all blood sacrifice of Christ for the removal of all sins (Heb. 9:26), not Persian and Greek philosophical “fire,” which is the true root of your beloved doctrine.

Why can’t you admit that purgatory is biblical even after all the evidence from the Catechism showing you that this is because of His blood?

You need to finally accept Purgatory exactly as your catechism teaches it, Maria. It has nothing to do with the blood of Christ (He paid only the eternal debt, according to your catechism), but you Catholics are taught that there are “temporal punishments” attached to sins that must be suffered BY YOU.

Of course we’ve hardly gotten into the "illegitimate doctrinal children" of Purgatory like “Supererogation,” and “Indulgences,” and the extreme, historical abuses that came out of Rome with them.

 

[apophasis]

Respectfully I must state that it DOES NOT MATTER that Scripture does not SPECIFICALLY speak of a sanctifying process after death.

Thank you for admitting this. It’s a totally extra-biblical tradition that has no Biblical support.

The scriptures do not SPECIFICALLY speak of…
1.The Trinity
2.Original Sin
3.The Incarnation

Oh but the Scriptures do specifically support these doctrines. They’re the foundation of a true Christian faith, rooted deeply in the Scriptures. I am surprised you made such a statement .

 

[MariaG]

The clear teaching of Paul that to be absent from the body is to be at Home with the Lord contradicts it.

 

[MariaG]

Honestly?

I just think you’re not interested in our explanations-- or the summarized explanations from our own Catechism either.

Unfortunately, I think you are right.

It always saddens me when a person is so caught up in proving the Catholic Church wrong, they fail to actually read why they are mistaken.

So much so that they have to insist the explanation for purgatory has been “protestantized” instead of saying, Oh, I see what you mean now.

The good news is that since our explanation is apparently so “protestant” that means if he believed our explanation, he would actually agree to it at least on some level or he would not keep telling us that we have made it so protestant sounding.

Thanks for taking the time and finding all the specific words in the Catechism about Christ’s redemptive blood:thumbsup:

Your sister in Christ,
Maria

 

[Pryority7]

Thank you for admitting this. It’s a totally extra-biblical tradition that has no Biblical support.

Don’t twist my words. This belief DOES have biblical support. You are just turning a blind eye to it to justify your teaching.

No, they don’t. Where in Scripture does it say that The Father, the Son , and the Holy Spirit is God Almighty, separate persons yet One God? Show me the Scripture reading…and don’t give me John 1 or Genesis 2 or something like that because they don’t specifically state what I’m asking for above. You see…we can do this too. Show me where it states that God became Man (The Incarnation). I’m sure Arius made the same objections in this subject.
Therefore, don’t be surprised, John. I’m merely dishing out the same ammo that you’re using. It can go both ways, but one needs and OPEN HEART and OPEN MIND to really see the hidden treasures of the Word of God.

P7

 

[Pryority7]

The cross itself totally contradicts it. The clear teaching of Paul that to be absent from the body is to be at Home with the Lord contradicts it. Paul’s teaching of who the true believer is now “in Christ” totally contradicts it.

I stated this in the earlier post…Paul was talking about HIS OWN SUBJECTIVE WISH…There is nothing in this reading that even remotely suggests that there is no transition between being in the body and being with the Lord. And once again you’ve ignored the statement I made regarding you conveniently leaving out a verse in that reading…too legalistic for you, isnt’ it?

P7

 

[MariaG]

.

I stated this in the earlier post…Paul was talking about HIS OWN SUBJECTIVE WISH…There is nothing in this reading that even remotely suggests that there is no transition between being in the body and being with the Lord. And once again you’ve ignored the statement I made regarding you conveniently leaving out a verse in that reading…too legalistic for you, isnt’ it?

P7

Respectfully Pryority, even if you are wrong in your interpretation and apo is correct and Paul literally meant that the moment we die we will be present with the Lord, this does not “prove” that we will not be cleansed and be perfectly clean before we enter heaven through a process Catholics call purgatory.

There is no time limit defintion on purgatory. We ususally think of it as a place that that belief is usually based on private revelation. Purgatory could be instantaneous in which case we will be cleansed the moment we die and be perfectly clean.

God Bless,
Maria

 

[Pryority7]

Respectfully Pryority, even if you are wrong in your interpretation and apo is correct and Paul literally meant that the moment we die we will be present with the Lord, this does not “prove” that we will not be cleansed and be perfectly clean before we enter heaven through a process Catholics call purgatory.

There is no time limit defintion on purgatory. We ususally think of it as a place that that belief is usually based on private revelation. Purgatory could be instantaneous in which case we will be cleansed the moment we die and be perfectly clean.

I absolutely agree with you Maria. It’s just that Apo is using this reading to prove his point and as much as he sugarcoats it with theological jargon, he can’t.

P7
God Bless,
Maria

 

[Mickey]

Purgatory could be instantaneous in which case we will be cleansed the moment we die and be perfectly clean.

Yes. It very well may take place in the blink of an eye.

 

[jmcrae]

The cross itself totally contradicts it. The clear teaching of Paul that to be absent from the body is to be at Home with the Lord contradicts it.

Does this mean that nobody goes to Hell, either? If we assume that “to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord” is what Paul meant to say, and, further, we assume that this is intended to be taken literally, then wouldn’t that mean that everyone who dies goes instantaneously to be with the Lord, including people like Adolf Hitler and Judas Iscariot?

How does that make any kind of sense, given all the many warnings we receive about how hard it is to get to Heaven? Jesus Himself explains in Matthew 25:31-46 that it is only those who do the Commandments and keep them in perfect love who can go to Heaven - and elsewhere, He reminds us that merely acknowledging Him as Lord is not enough to save us from our sins: we must be perfect as He is perfect.

Matthew 7:21​

Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

Matthew 7:22​

Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

Matthew 25:11​

Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us.

Luke 6:46​

And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?

Luke 13:25​

When once the master of the house is risen up, and hath shut to the door, and ye begin to stand without, and to knock at the door, saying, Lord, Lord, open unto us; and he shall answer and say unto you, I know you not whence ye are:

Yet, we also know that we are forgiven of our sins through the Cross and Resurrection, and that through Him, by means of the Sacraments, we can be made perfect.

How can both be true? Unless there is a process by which we are perfected, and through which we gain the ability to be perfectly obedient to His commandments?

 

[MariaG]

I absolutely agree with you Maria. It’s just that Apo is using this reading to prove his point and as much as he sugarcoats it with theological jargon, he can’t.

I figured so, but as he was trying to use you to prove his point, I had to make sure it got clarified for all Well, at least for the lurkers.

God Bless,
Maria

 

[Pryority7]

Does this mean that nobody goes to Hell, either? If we assume that “to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord” is what Paul meant to say, and, further, we assume that this is intended to be taken literally, then wouldn’t that mean that everyone who dies goes instantaneously to be with the Lord, including people like Adolf Hitler and Judas Iscariot?

How does that make any kind of sense, given all the many warnings we receive about how hard it is to get to Heaven? Jesus Himself explains in Matthew 25:31-46 that it is only those who do the Commandments and keep them in perfect love who can go to Heaven - and elsewhere, He reminds us that merely acknowledging Him as Lord is not enough to save us from our sins: we must be perfect as He is perfect.

Matthew 7:21​

Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

Matthew 7:22​

Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

Matthew 25:11​

Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us.

Luke 6:46​

And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?

Luke 13:25​

When once the master of the house is risen up, and hath shut to the door, and ye begin to stand without, and to knock at the door, saying, Lord, Lord, open unto us; and he shall answer and say unto you, I know you not whence ye are:

Yet, we also know that we are forgiven of our sins through the Cross and Resurrection, and that through Him, by means of the Sacraments, we can be made perfect.

How can both be true? Unless there is a process by which we are perfected, and through which we gain the ability to be perfectly obedient to His commandments?

Whoa…hold on dude…that quote is not from me…it’s from Apo…

P7

 

[jmcrae]

Whoa…hold on dude…that quote is not from me…it’s from Apo…

P7

OOOPS!! I’m not sure what happened, there!