Why do Protestants object to Purgatory?

[Montalban]

Oh my goodness. I had to take a break from this particular thread. It seems the non-Catholic Christians here don’t actually want to learn from anything we post in here. So I had to just take a breather.

It’s a pity you had to start upon your return with so emotive an appeal. If you could deal with the issue of why an never-changing God changes (according to Catholic teaching), that would be great.

The good thing to know is that we can have our Purgatory right here on earth. Our sufferings should not be ignored and/or taken so hard. They should be united to the sufferings of Jesus on the Cross. I do that by praying and especially during Mass when the priest holds up Jesus’ body and blood on the altar and says, “Through Him, with Him, in Him, in the Unity of the Holy Spirit, all glory and honor is yours Almighty Father, forever and ever.” And then we give our “Great Amen.” We don’t say “great” we just say “amen.” It has been called the “Great Amen” however. I like that.
There is great reward for uniting our sufferings to those of Christ’s. Our sufferings here are redemptive.

Which is still God wanting us to suffer until He’s satisfied.

24 Now I rejoice in my sufferings for your sake,
and in my flesh I am filling up what is lacking in
Christ’s afflictions for the sake of his body, that
is, the church Col 1:24

There is no doubt that Christ as Man suffered. To a degree suffering is expected here on earth, because earth is not perfect. Suffering to satisfy a God who shouldn’t need satisfying is unusual.

 

[AlegreFe]

AlegreFe;1753908:

You are right as far as not through the written

Word of God. Not all Revelation came through written word on papyrus. The Word was preached not written down. There was no writings at the time of Jesus and the Apostles except for the OT Scriptures. And even when the letters were written (epistles of Paul, Peter…) these letters were not the first instruction on the faith. They have already been preached to when these letters were written.You’re saying the message Jesus told the Apostles to take to the world was about Purgatory? What proof do you have of this?

No that is not what I said at all. Please read my post again. I am just stating that not everything Jesus taught was written in the Bible. And what there is written is not always specifically stated. You of all people should know that. You do believe in the Trinity right? But the Bible does not specifically say “Trinity” does it? No. You will never find the actual word “Trinity” in the Bible just as you will never find the word “Purgatory” in the bible but the concept of Purgatory is in there. You just don’t want to see it.

apophasis:

Why then was this message not recorded in the historical Book of Acts? It records what Peter preched to the people, as well as Paul. Both presented the cross of Christ for the cleansing and forgiveness of ALL sins.

AlegreFe:

That is the reason why we don’t see everything in Paul’s epistles; and even in the rest of the books of the bible.

That’s right. You find NOTHING in Paul’s Epistles, or any of the rest of them. Only the cross of Christ. In fact, the first we see of any writing referring to anyone being cleansed by “fire” is Origen’s.

Never heard of Origen.

 

[AlegreFe]

apophasis:

And he taught that even Satan and his fallen angels would be cleansed in such a manner. Of course that teaching was rejected, but it was the first. Augustine wrote on it, and then Gregory the Great. This was long after the Apostolic age. And according to RC doctrine on tradition, tradition is based on Apostolic teaching. But what proof do you have that such a teaching was ever handed down by any Apostle.

It seems as if you don’t even want to learn anything. It seems you are here just to knock us Catholics down. If you want to really learn please soften your heart and open your mind to the possibility of you actually learning a thing or two from this forum. Thanks.

Here is something from the Early Church Fathers. These Church Fathers would not teach something unless it was taught to them by the Apostles or any of the disciples who were taught by the Apostles of Jesus Christ. There is more in that link from others. So happy reading.
The Roots of Purgatory
“And after the exhibition, Tryphaena again received her
[Thecla]. For her daughter Falconilla had died, and said
to her in a dream: ‘Mother, you shall have this stranger
Thecla in my place, in order that she may pray concerning
me, and that I may be transferred to the place of the
righteous’” (Acts of Paul and Thecla [A.D. 160]).

“The citizen of a prominent city, I erected this while I lived,
that I might have a resting place for my body. Abercius is
my name, a disciple of the chaste Shepherd who feeds his
sheep on the mountains and in the fields, who has great
eyes surveying everywhere, who taught me the faithful
writings of life. Standing by, I, Abercius, ordered this to be
inscribed: Truly, I was in my seventy-second year. May
everyone who is in accord with this and who understands it
pray for Abercius” (Epitaph of Abercius [A.D. 190]).

 

[AlegreFe]

apophasis:

Especially Paul who said to be absent from the body is to AT HOME with the Lord?.

You forgot this verse which follows a wee bit later.

10 For we must all appear before the judgment
seat of Christ, so that each one may receive
recompense, according to what he did in
the body, whether good or evil. 2 Cor 5:10

apophasis:

AlegreFe:

24

It is this disciple who testifies to these
things and has written them, and we know
that his testimony is true.
25 There are also many other things that
Jesus did, but if these were to be described
individually, I do not think the whole world
would contain the books that would be
written. John 21:24-25
So you’re claiming Jesus taught on Purgatory? How is it then such an important doctrine would be left out of the Gospel accounts? So now you’re claiming that salvation is based on one’s acceptance of your doctrine of Purgatory???If that’s what you believe salvation is based on, then you’re in my prayers.

Yes Jesus taught this because it was in His faith growing up. This is something in which the Jewish people believed also.

Your salvation is not based on whether you believe in Purgatory or not. Protestants think that their salvation is based on the belief of Jesus Christ and that is wrong also. Your belief in Hell is good because the devil wants you to think that there is no Hell, but you know better than that. But whether you believe in Purgatory or not, you will end up there unless for some reason God lets you in dirty as long as you have your white cloak on top to cover up the dirt.
I DON’T THINK SO!

Whatever you do in life will be revealed at the time of judgement when you die. You will be purified through fire, the loving fire of God. That loving fire comes from the cleansing blood and water of Jesus Christ on the Cross. After your purification you can then enter into Heaven.

I would think that you know that nothing unclean can enter into Heaven right? Can you say that you are perfect right now? Can you say that you never sin?.. never do anything wrong?..you are perfect in every way just as your Heavenly Father is perfect? I know I’m not. I will see you in Purgatory.

I do NOT believe that my salvation is based on my belief in Purgatory. Although it does help for me to know that I can have my Purgatory right here in earth, at least to start it out anyway. And thanks for your prayers. We all need each other’s prayers. You are also in my prayers.

 

[Montalban]

Never heard of Origen.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Origen

By the way, you’re appeal about ‘non-Catholics’ who just don’t understand doesn’t work. I was Catholic. Went to a Catholic School, was ‘educated’ in Catholic belief.

I know about the Catholic idea of God, always watching, ready to punish.

 

[AlegreFe]

AlegreFe:

Oh my goodness. I had to take a break from this particular thread. It seems the non-Catholic Christians here don’t actually want to learn from anything we post in here. So I had to just take a breather.

It’s a pity you had to start upon your return with so emotive an appeal. If you could deal with the issue of why an never-changing God changes (according to Catholic teaching), that would be great.

What does that have to do with my post?

Montalban:

AlegreFe:

The good thing to know is that we can have our Purgatory right here on earth. Our sufferings should not be ignored and/or taken so hard. They should be united to the sufferings of Jesus on the Cross. I do that by praying and especially during Mass when the priest holds up Jesus’ body and blood on the altar and says, “Through Him, with Him, in Him, in the Unity of the Holy Spirit, all glory and honor is yours Almighty Father, forever and ever.” And then we give our “Great Amen.” We don’t say “great” we just say “amen.” It has been called the “Great Amen” however. I like that.
There is great reward for uniting our sufferings to those of Christ’s. Our sufferings here are redemptive.

Which is still God wanting us to suffer until He’s satisfied.

God does not want us to suffer. We suffer because sin entered into this world. God did not choose our suffering. We did. God gave us the gift of His Son Jesus Christ to die on the cross for us. But that doesn’t mean that we don’t have to suffer for our sins.

Montalban:

AlegreFe:

24

Now I rejoice in my sufferings for your sake,
and in my flesh I am filling up what is lacking in
Christ’s afflictions for the sake of his body, that
is, the church Col 1:24
There is no doubt that Christ as Man suffered. To a degree suffering is expected here on earth, because earth is not perfect. Suffering to satisfy a God who shouldn’t need satisfying is unusual.

Suffering is not so much to satisfy God as it is to purify us. I myself would not want to see God with all my “dirt” on me. I would want to be purified before seeing my Almighty God. I want to see Jesus so bad but I would never want to see Him with dirt piled on me. This is something I would choose just in the same way that I would not want to go out to dinner with my husband all dirty. I would want to get cleaned up and where something nice to be with him on a special dinner date.

As far as God needing anything from us… God did not need to create us, but He did. God does not need our Love. That is why He gave us free will. It’s always nicer for someone to show you love without it being forced. We are the ones that need Him to survive. You are putting all of this in the wrong direction. It is we that need Him not the other way around. But we know that nothing unclean can enter into Heaven. We also know that God is a just God but you can never forget that He is Merciful first and foremost. That is why Purgatory exists. It is His Mercy for us. His purifying Love for us to enter into His Kingdom.

 

[AlegreFe]

By the way, you’re appeal about ‘non-Catholics’ who just don’t understand doesn’t work.

Doesn’t work for what?

Montalban:

I was Catholic. Went to a Catholic School, was ‘educated’ in Catholic belief.

If you really knew about the Catholic Faith, you would’ve never left.

Montalban:

I know about the Catholic idea of God, always watching, ready to punish.

Oh my goodness, you are so wrong. That is not what I think of God.
God is Love! God is Mercy!

It seems that some Catholics leave out of fear of something. You have to know that none of your sins are greater than God’s Mercy for you.

That is not to say that we can just do whatever we want. I don’t see a problem though. You just Love God and neighbor, follow the commandments, receive the Sacraments, Confession and Jesus in Holy Communion, pray, pray, pray and you’ll be fine. Faith AND Works is the Catholic way. The Works part is your Love for God and neighbor. Come back, God doesn’t bite if you please Him. Not that He will if you don’t. He gives you many chances if you repent of your sins and are truly sorry out of perfect Love for Him. I’m telling you, God is Merciful before He is Just.

 

[Montalban]

Why do Orthodox think Theosis+Tollhouse is any different than Purgatory?

Theosis is the process by which we become God. It is certainly not a punishment. It is the whole Orthodox Christian way of life by which we follow ‘the Way’ of Christ.

 

[Montalban]

Doesn’t work for what?

As a debating tool Neither does the following statement…

If you really knew about the Catholic Faith, you would’ve never left.

You’ve instantly dismissed anything I’ll ever say about Catholicism.

Seems you wish not to discuss this matter

 

[Montalban]

What does that have to do with my post?

You’re being dismissive about what other people say

God does not want us to suffer. We suffer because sin entered into this world. God did not choose our suffering. We did. God gave us the gift of His Son Jesus Christ to die on the cross for us. But that doesn’t mean that we don’t have to suffer for our sins.

He just watches you like a hawk, waiting for you to stumble.

Suffering is not so much to satisfy God as it is to purify us. I myself would not want to see God with all my “dirt” on me. I would want to be purified before seeing my Almighty God. I want to see Jesus so bad but I would never want to see Him with dirt piled on me. This is something I would choose just in the same way that I would not want to go out to dinner with my husband all dirty. I would want to get cleaned up and where something nice to be with him on a special dinner date.

You don’t need to suffer. Ask God to forgive you, with a genuine heart.

However your post doesn’t address any of the evidence I’ve presented regarding God needing satisfaction.

As far as God needing anything from us… God did not need to create us, but He did. God does not need our Love. That is why He gave us free will. It’s always nicer for someone to show you love without it being forced. We are the ones that need Him to survive. You are putting all of this in the wrong direction. It is we that need Him not the other way around. But we know that nothing unclean can enter into Heaven. We also know that God is a just God but you can never forget that He is Merciful first and foremost. That is why Purgatory exists. It is His Mercy for us. His purifying Love for us to enter into His Kingdom.

His mercy is that He forgives us.

 

[Mr.Ex_Nihilo]

It’s a non-issue as the idea of ‘satisfying’ God is only Catholic teaching.

It is not a non-issue. God did demand justice. And this justice has been fulfilled in his Son. The Scriptures are abundantly clear that it is in his Son that he is pleased…
Matthew 3:17:

And a voice from heaven said, “This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased.”

Matthew 17:5:

While he was still speaking, a bright cloud enveloped them, and a voice from the cloud said, “This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased. Listen to him!”

Mark 1:11:

And a voice came from heaven: “You are my Son, whom I love; with you I am well pleased.”

Luke 3:22:

and the Holy Spirit descended on him in bodily form like a dove. And a voice came from heaven: “You are my Son, whom I love; with you I am well pleased.”

2 Peter 1:17:

For he received honor and glory from God the Father when the voice came to him from the Majestic Glory, saying, “This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased.”

When the Scriptures say that God was pleased with his Son, this means that God was satisfied with the sacrifice his Son made for us.

Or, as Colossians 1:19-20 says…

For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him, and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross.

Likewise, as John 5:21] also says…

For just as the Father raises the dead and gives them life, even so the Son gives life to whom he is pleased to give it.

God was most pleased with his Son-- God was totally satisfied with his divine Son. That’s why he purges our souls in purgatory through the blood of Christ until we bear the likeness of his Son.

Montalban:

You’ve argued that God doesn’t need to be satisfied.

I have never argued that God doesn’t need to be satisfied. I’ve said that nothing we can do of our own human merit can satisfy God.

In other words, it is only through the sacrifice that his son made that God is pleased (ie., satisfied). And when these things are manifested in us, this means that Christ is alive in us-- which is what God is pleased with. Christ obtains our salvation for us.

Montalban:

Now you argue that He was, by His Son. You went on about how I just don’t get Catholic teaching.

You not only don’t understand Catholic teaching. You appearently don’t understand our explanations of Catholic teachings either.

Montalban:

Good, that makes Augustine closer to Orthodoxy on this.

No. It makes Catholic teachings closer to Orthodox teachings. And this Augustinian teaching has always accompanied Catholic teachings.

Unless you understand that this suffering is a medicine for salvation, and not a punishment for damnation, you will never understand the dynamics of purgatory.

In other words, you will never understand that this ‘punishment’ in purgatory is actually a medicine for salvation as Christ’s blood purges us of our sin, just as fire purges away the impurities in gold in the refiner’s fire.

And, ultimaltely, you will never understand that this suffering in purgatory does not earn our way into heaven. The suffering we go through in purgatory is Christ manifesting within us, purging us from sin by his blood as we participate in his divine suffering which has cleansed us from all sin.

Montalban:

For Catholic teaching God wants you punished.

Without Christ? Yes. We are most cerainly punished for our sins in hell, just as the Scriptures say over and over again…
2 Thessalonians 1:8-10:

He will punish those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus.

They will be punished with **everlasting destruction **and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the majesty of his power on the day he comes to be glorified in his holy people and to be marveled at among all those who have believed.

This includes you, because you believed our testimony to you.

With Christ? No. We understand that this suffering is a medicine for salvation, and not a punishment for damnation, just as St. Augustine said.

 

[Mr.Ex_Nihilo]

Theosis is the process by which we become God. It is certainly not a punishment. It is the whole Orthodox Christian way of life by which we follow ‘the Way’ of Christ.

Theosis is purgatory.

 

[Mr.Ex_Nihilo]

Goody for them, but that still doesn’t negate the Catholic teaching on purgatory.

That is the Catholic teaching on purgatory!

Good Lord, are you honestly incapable of grasping this?!?

The Lord said in Mark 7:18,** “Are you so dull? Don’t you see that nothing that enters a man from the outside can make him ‘unclean’?”**

Likewise, in regards to purgatory, one could likewise say, "Are you so dull? Don’t you see that nothing that enters into heaven cannot have entered unless they were made ‘clean’ by the blood of Christ?"

Listen to what we’re saying!

Montalban:

I note too you’ve dropped your strangely unique concept of God dying.

Did you actually read post # 586?
Mr. Ex Nihilo:

God’s Spirit went down to the place of the dead, just like all other 'normal souls" did, in order to draw all the souls that would be saved in him through his own divine soul in order to draw them into heaven-- that’s purgatory…

…I know what it says. But nothing said here negates the fact that God’s divine Spirit went down to the very place of the dead in order to draw up all the souls that would be redeemed in him. Even though he was true God and true man, his divine Spirit did indeed go to the place of the dead in order to save us.

(What does “he ascended” mean except that he also descended to the lower, earthly regions? He who descended is the very one who ascended higher than all the heavens, in order to fill the whole universe.)

Since his Spirit was divine, he could not be trapped in the abode of the dead like us mere mortals were. And if he did not have a divine Spirit, he would have never been able to save us from the place of the dead in the first place. The reason why he can do this is because Jesus is true God and true man.
Acts 2:24:

But God raised him from the dead, freeing him from the agony of death, because it was impossible for death to keep its hold on him.

His flesh expereinced death so that his Spirit could experience the place of the dead-- and yet it was impossible for death to keep its hold on him precisely because he had a divine soul. Consequently, if he had not died in this way, he would not have been able to allow his divine Spirit to experience the place of the dead and return from it unscathed in order to symapthize with us and redeem us before the Father in heaven.
Hebrews 4:15:

For we do not have a high priest who is unable to sympathize with our weaknesses, but we have one who has been tempted in every way, just as we are—yet was without sin.

…Our spirits were redeemed too.

In fact his blood was spilled so that his divine Spirit could be released into the realm of the dead in order to bring healing to our dying spirits. Without his divine sacrifice, we would have remained in our sins, sunk even further into sin, and inevitably lost into the depths of hell.

 

[AlegreFe]

According to the written Word of God, I have been cleansed of ALL my sins through the sacrificial, shed blood of Christ on the cross.

You have been cleansed of your original sin through the sacrificial blood of Christ; and that’s only if you’ve been baptized. Whenever you sin and you repent of your sin, the blood is applied to cleanse you from your own personal sin. But you have to keep repenting if you keep sinning. Every time you repent that blood of Jesus is applied as a cleansing of your sin for you. Grace if a free Gift of God if you accept His grace openly. But if a person sins and keep on sinning, the person eventually kills off the grace within him and no longer has his salvation. OSAS does not exist.

apophasis:

Salvation is not based on whether or not I have “repented” (confessed) of ALL committed sins, but that I have “repented,” that is, turned (changed directions, a change of mind) from unbelief to belief in the Person and work of Jesus Christ.

Yes it is based on your repentance of your sins. If you commit murder or steal you would have to be sorry before God. You would have to repent of those sins if you want to enter into the Kingdom. If you do not follow any of the commandments then you are committing sin for which you would have to repent. For Catholics we have to do penance for our sins; that is to show evidence that we are repentant of our sins. We do it because we love Jesus and not because of a sense of obligation. Although there are Catholics who might do that. That is sad. Btw, ALL Christians have to do penance for our sins. We have to show evidence of our repentance. It’s Scriptural… read on.

1 In those days John the Baptist appeared,
preaching in the desert of Judea
2 (and) saying, “Repent, for the kingdom
of heaven is at hand!”
…
5 At that time Jerusalem, all Judea, and the
whole region around the Jordan were going
out to him
6 and were being baptized by him in the
Jordan River as they acknowledged
their sins.
Mt 3:1-2, 5-6
(NAB)Footnote for Repent
Repent: the Baptist calls for a change of heart
and conduct, a turning of one’s life from rebellion to **
obedience towards God**. The kingdom of
heaven is at hand: “heaven” (literally, “the heavens”)
is a substitute for the name “God” that was avoided
by devout Jews of the time out of reverence. The
expression “the kingdom of heaven” occurs only in
the gospel of Matthew. It means the effective
rule of God over his people. In its
fullness it includes not only human obedience
to God’s word, but the triumph of God over
physical evils, supremely over death. In the expectation
found in Jewish apocalyptic, the kingdom was to be
ushered in by a judgment in which sinners would be
condemned and perish, an expectation shared by the
Baptist. This was modified in Christian understanding
where the kingdom was seen as being established in
stages, culminating with the parousia of Jesus.

17 From that time on, Jesus began to
preach and say, “Repent, for the kingdom
of heaven is at hand.” Mt 4:17
Same footnote from above would apply here.​

15 “This is the time of fulfillment. The kingdom of
God is at hand. Repent, and believe in the gospel.”
Mk 1:15
It’s obvious here that repenting does not mean to believe in the Gospel. The Gospel is Jesus.
It doesn’t say “repent or believe” nor does it say, “repent by believing” it says “repent AND believe.”

more in next post…

 

[AlegreFe]

…cont.

8 Produce good fruits as evidence of
your repentance; and do not begin to
say to yourselves, ‘We have Abraham as
our father,’ for I tell you, God can raise up
children to Abraham from these stones.
9 Even now the ax lies at the root of the
trees. Therefore every tree that does not
produce good fruit will be cut down
and thrown into the fire."
Lk 3:8-9
Penance, penance, penance! Very Catholic. ​

2 He said to them in reply, “Do you think that
because these Galileans suffered in this way
they were greater sinners than all other
Galileans?
3 By no means! But I tell you, if you do not
repent, you will all perish as they did!
4 Or those eighteen people who were killed
when the tower at Siloam fell on them --do you
think they were more guilty than everyone else
who lived in Jerusalem?
5 By no means! But I tell you, if you do not
repent, you will all perish as they did!”
Lk 13:2-5​

2 Be watchful and strengthen what is left,
which is going to die, for I have not found
your works complete in the sight of my
God.
3 Remember then how you accepted and
heard; keep it, and repent. If you are not
watchful, I will come like a thief, and you will
never know at what hour I will come upon you.
Rv 3:2-3​

20 The rest of the human race, who were not
killed by these plagues, did not repent of the
works of their hands, to give up the worship
of demons and idols made from gold, silver,
bronze, stone, and wood, which cannot see
or hear or walk. Nor did they repent of their
murders, their magic potions, their unchastity,
or their robberies. Rv 9:20
Looks to me you have to repent of your sins or else. You just have to be truly sorry out of perfect love for God and change. Don’t make more of this than what it is. I don’t know if you think that we Catholics think that to “repent” means to be crucified or something.​

22 Repent of this wickedness of yours and
pray to the Lord that, if possible, your
intention may be forgiven. Acts 8:22
“Repent of your wickedness” seems to me you have to repent of your sins which are wicked. Repent means to be truly sorry… it says to pray so that you may be forgiven. That sounds like you’re saying you’re sorry, just as I said. What is so hard about that? But it’s not as easy as you said as to just have “belief in the Person and work of Jesus Christ.”​

38 Peter (said) to them, "Repent and be
baptized, every one of you, in the name of
Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins;
and you will receive the gift of the holy Spirit.
Acts 2:38
Batism cleans away our sins. But only those sins that were committed before the batism. And for infants only original sin. And after that if we commit sins we have to be repentant of our sins. For us Catholics we go to Confession then receive Jesus in Holy Communion; after that we are renewed and clean again. Wow, God is Great! I love Jesus Christ.

more in next post…

 

[AlegreFe]

…cont.

19 Repent, therefore, and be converted, that
your sins may be wiped away Acts 3:19
Another one that talks about sins. If you have to repent for your sins once and you still sin, then you would have to repent again every time you sin.​

20 On the contrary, first to those in Damascus
and in Jerusalem and throughout the whole
country of Judea, and then to the Gentiles, I
preached the need to repent and turn to
God, and to do works giving evidence
of repentance.
Acts 26:20
This does not look like repenting just to have “belief in the Person and work of Jesus Christ.” The showing of works as evidence of repentance sounds a lot like doing penance to me.
That’s what it is!​

There are more… I could’ve kept going with more verses but I think you get the picture.
You do don’t you?

With all those verses (and more) they talk about repenting of your sins. Well for us Catholics, repent means to suffer pain. A better term for us Catholics is to do penance for our sins. It could be to pray or to offer up our sufferings as penance for our sins, or doing good works of charity. I would like to lessen my time in Purgatory as much as possible. So I do penance for my sins. It’s not rocket science. I do it because I love Jesus Christ!

more…

 

[AlegreFe]

…cont.

Believe or not this is from your same quote as the ones in my previous posts here. :whacky: http://i70.photobucket.com/albums/i85/Alegre-Fe/Emoticons/Laughing.gif

But if you’re questioning even what the written Word of God is, then you’re not even at first base yet in respect to the faith.

You seem to keep emphasizing on the written Word of God. The Word of God is Jesus Christ. Jesus Christ is not limited to written words on a page. The Word of God was revealed to us in a Trinitarian way;

1. 
   *]Sacred Scripture - written word
   *]Sacred Tradition - oral
   *]Magisterial Teaching - Authority of the Magisterium of the Cathoilc Church
   

   25 There are also many other things that
   Jesus did, but if these were to be described
   individually, I do not think the whole world
   would contain the books that would be
   written.
   Jn 21:25​

   15 Therefore, brothers, stand firm and hold
   fast to the traditions that you were taught,
   either by an oral statement or by a letter
   of ours. 2 Thess 2:15​

   15 But if I should be delayed, you should
   know how to behave in the household of God,
   which is the church of the living God, the
   pillar and foundation of truth.
   1 Tm 3:15

 

[john_ennis]

…cont.

Believe or not this is from your same quote as the ones in my previous posts here. :whacky: http://i70.photobucket.com/albums/i85/Alegre-Fe/Emoticons/Laughing.gif
You seem to keep emphasizing on the written Word of God. The Word of God is Jesus Christ. Jesus Christ is not limited to written words on a page. The Word of God was revealed to us in a Trinitarian way;

1. 
   *]Sacred Scripture - written word
   *]Sacred Tradition - oral
   *]Magisterial Teaching - Authority of the Magisterium of the Cathoilc Church
   25 There are also many other things that
   Jesus did, but if these were to be described
   individually, I do not think the whole world
   would contain the books that would be
   written.
   Jn 21:25

1. 
   

   15 Therefore, brothers, stand firm and hold
   fast to the traditions that you were taught,
   either by an oral statement or by a letter
   of ours. 2 Thess 2:15​

   15 But if I should be delayed, you should
   know how to behave in the household of God,
   which is the church of the living God, the
   pillar and foundation of truth.
   1 Tm 3:15

1. 
   It was an ironic statement: “If you’re questioning what the written Word is, you’re not at first base yet…”
   
   And yet by looking only to the written Word, one cannot know what the written Word includes. (Maccabees? yes or no? Luke? yes or no? Gospel of Thomas? yes or no? Must I look to men to help me find it? Or is it possible that the men (the Church) who proclaimed the canon of Scripture were not giving me a teaching of *men, *but were speaking the Word?)
   
   By looking only to the written Word, one cannot know even where exactly to look.
   What a paradox.
   Peace.
   John

 

[AlegreFe]

First of all, Christ’s sacrifice was not “outside of time.” The Son incarnated, being born into the time/space continuum of our world. His sacrifice was an HISTORICAL event which took place in time and space. It had a beginning, and it had an end (“it is finished”).

God is outside of time! God transcends everything. The sacrifice of Jesus Christ is always PRESENT to God the Father. Lucky for us! Don’t you get it… why we’re lucky that God is outside of time? The Mass is the most important worship we can do here on earth just as it is in Heaven. And because the sacrifice of Jesus is still present to God the Father, we can offer that same sacrifice at every Mass every single day all over the world. But it is the SAME sacrifice but in an unbloody manner. God applies the blood because the Lamb is still standing as though slain, bloody. We do not resacrifice Jesus over and over again as protestants think we do.

6 And between the throne and the four
living creatures and among the elders I
saw a Lamb standing, as though it had
been slain, with seven horns and with
seven eyes, which are the seven spirits
of God sent out into all the earth.
Rev 5:6 (ESV)
The Lamb is standing… present tense. The Lamb is standing and it has been slain. Slain but still standing. Do you know what that means? The sacrifice is still present to the Lord! I thank God for that!

If you’ve already read the whole book of Revelations then read it again. It’s not just about “end times” as many protestants think. Revelations is our Catholic Mass! And Jesus in the Eucharist is part of our Mass every single day.

apophasis:

Now it is true, God transcends time. Hence, He laid upon the Savior, at the time of His historical sacrifice, ALL the sins of the world: past, present and future. But the sacrifice itself took place in actual time.
Now those were my and your sins that were put upon the Savior 2000 years ago. They were not His own, and they were not just those who were His contemporary (“behold the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world”).

God the Father is pleased with His Son Jesus Christ. We have to still do penance for our sins. If that’s not the case then why is there suffering here on earth? It’s not for nothing that’s for sure. You just don’t want to see it that way. It’s because of our sins. So take advantage of it while you still can; penance for your sins.
Yes it was our sins that caused his blood shed but since the lack of Christ’s suffering exists for the sake of the Church, it is like we take our own suffering and offer it back to Jesus. That is the way I like to think about it. When I suffer pain of any kind I offer it up to Jesus as penance for my sins. I sometimes want to apply to family of mine that have passed on that might be in purgatory. If they’re not there and in heaven now, then God applies it accordingly to His wishes to another soul in purgatory.

apophasis:

And the word has since gone out that whoever believes in His Person and work, through faith, enter into the once for all salvation He historically procured through the offering up of Himself. Because what was laid on the Savior 2000 years ago can never be laid back on the sinner who believes in Him.

You can’t just have faith, you have to show your faith by your good works out of Love for God and not dead works. I’m sure you’ve read all my scripture verses in my previous replies to you. We have to show good fruits as evidence of our repentance. What don’t you get?

apophasis:

For 1400 years, through the Law of Moses, it was demonstrated to men by God that men are cleansed from sin through the shedding of sacrificial blood, not fire.

But that fire is God’s mercy for us in purgatory. But it is because of Jesus’ shed blood that the fire can work through us.

apophasis:

The blood of God’s Lamb being the ultimate, and His death the final sacrifice. Cleansing by fire, however, is an ancient pagan concept and has nothing to do with the God of the Bible or the true Christian faith. It is outside the realm of Divine Revelation.

:whacky: Oh my goodness. Is this useless or what? I leave this in God’s hands.

 

[Mr.Ex_Nihilo]

:whacky: Oh my goodness. Is this useless or what? I leave this in God’s hands.

I think you have the right idea AlegreFe. Perhaps we all need to take a break from this one. The explanations we’ve all offered (you, me, Maria and all the other fellow Catholics too) simply do not seem to be taking root at all.