Why do Protestants object to Purgatory?

[believers]

Would you please satisfy my own personal desire by quoting this part of Scripture with the addition of verses 10, 11 etc.

And then perhaps hightlight “grace”.

The Catholic 2000yr teaching… We are saved by GRACE, through FAITH, working in LOVE.

Even Jesus Himself says the greatest of these is LOVE.

Love equals Charity equals good works)

Notice how your Catholic religion has changed the word.

Eph 2:8
For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God:

Eph 2:9
Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Eph 2:10
For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus UNTO good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

Eph 2:11
Wherefore remember, that ye [being] in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;

 

[believers]

Nope your are inccorect. Sanctification is a process in Protestant theology, save those who are antinomians (anti moral law of Christ). The law of Moses is trying to be justified by observing the Jewish cerimonial law of Moses; that’s what “works of law” mean. It means to obey the Torah i.e, circumcision, observing Jewish diatary laws, observing the Jewish Saturday legalistic Sabbath day. That is what is the law of Moses. Catholicism doesn’t observe those and neither do Protestants. You do sound as though you are an antinomianistic,are you?

Right that’s what I just proved about one observing the cerimonian Jewish laws, but we still have to observe the moral law of Christ, do we not??

And what does “belief” mean? It means to do NOT just to say you have faith but also to DO what you say you believe, James 2:22-24.

Of course we obtain sanctification by belief of the Spirit, but you are being way over simplistic. Obtaining sanctification is a process of being made holy, this is Protestant theology and this is proof of what they teach in regard to sanctification…

abideinchrist.com/selah/feb3.html

Notice how the Protestant writer says "as we yield to His truth in obedience we are sanctified by the truth"

Sanctification is a process of obedience to the truth not a punctiliar only, one-time act.

Go ahead, check it out…it’s a Protestant site. I could easily get more.

Do you believe that you still sin?

As I said before, we obtain “salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth.” 2Th 2:13.

Eph 1:13 In whom ye also [trusted], after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

Although we still sin,

Rom 4:7 [Saying], Blessed [are] they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.

 

[shawn34_a]

Isn’t it a mockery of the sacrifice of Christ to say ‘I am free to hurt my brother and it doesn’t matter because I am saved’.

The CC teaches that it is wrong to receive the Bread of Life [the Eucharist] if we are in a state of grevious sin. Does the Protestant definition say ‘it is ok because I am saved’?

Once you accept Christ, you accept his teachings and desire to live and perform works as Christ did. Many Protestants don’t believe you need to perform works as part of your salvation. That could never be further from the truth. Protestants quickly jump at Ephesians 2:8-9 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9Not of works, lest any man should boast. But what they fail to notice is the colon that changes the whole meaning of the word. Of course you are not saved by works alone for James said 2:14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him? Faith without works is dead. One cannot truly have faith and not perform the works. In Revelations it states that we will be judged according to our deeds. Basically, if one continues to live a life of sin and not truly repent of it, they were never saved.

 

[Bishopite]

believers;1828067]Notice how your Catholic religion has changed the word.

How do you know for sure that Catholicism changed the word? Do you understand Koine Greek?

Is “religion” a bad thing?
If it is to you then try reading James 1:27 “Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world.”

Notice how James in saying those who are of a “true religion” do works of charity, hence Gal 5:6…“faith working through love”

Eph 2:8
For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God:

Why did you insert [it is] if it’s not in the original Greek manuscripts?

Eph 2:9
Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Notice this verse in James 2:24…it’s the King James Version.

“Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.” (KJV)

Eph 2:10
For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus UNTO good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

Unto means for good works and it is those good works that are part of the process our justification.

Phil 2:12—
"Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling." (KJV)

Perhaps rereading James 2:24-26 would help?

"Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way? For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also." (King James Version)

Notice there is a distinction between “works” and “works of law” or “works of the law” The former are those done for justification, the two later are legalistic works of the Torah that no longer justify post new covenant.

Eph 2:11
Wherefore remember, that ye [being] in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;

What’s your point on this verse?

 

[shawn34_a]

I’m Catholic now, but will defend the Protestant point. Fact is no one will be raised up until the second coming of Christ. This will happen at the last (7th trumpet) or last day (end of the age). This will be the first resurrection for us, not Christ.

1 Corithians 15:51Behold, I show you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

1 Thess 2:15For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. 16For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. 18Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

2 Thess 2:1Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, 2That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

Matt 24:29Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: 30And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Mark 13:24But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, 25And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken. 26And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory. 27And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.

Luke 21:25And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring; 26Men’s hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken. 27And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. 28And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.

Rev 16:15Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame. 16And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.

Rev 14:14-20 Parable

Rev 20:4And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. 6Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

John 6 speaks of people sleeping in Christ until the Last day.

When you put everything together, you realize that no matter what sanctification you may receive, we will not be with Christ until his 2nd coming. And that coming is for those that died in Christ’s name and those saved. For them the 2nd resurrection will not have power over them for they will already be with Christ for the 1000 year reign. The 2nd resurrection of the dead will occur at judgement day when finally death and hades too will be judged.

The Catholic support for purgatory is weak and very theological, but I cannot see anyone entering the kingdom of God without being fully sanctified. I know the primary support is located in 1 Corithians (I believe) when describing peoples deeds. Those that were made of hay and straw were burned up in the fire and etc.

 

[Bishopite]

[believers;1828120]As I said before, we obtain “salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth.” 2Th 2:13.

Right…through sanctification NOT that we are fully and completely sanctified and as I said prior, if we aren’t fully and completely sanctified at the moment of our death then sin and God’s glory don’t mix and hence we will need some purgation, this is what Catholicism calls “purgatory.”

Perhaps you need to take a second look at the church you left, maybe you left without knowing what it actually teaches. We welcome you back at any time. And without sounding arrogant, it is the church Christ established.

Although we still sin,

Rom 4:7 [Saying], Blessed [are] they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.

Ah…yes we do still sin, however, we must repent and I mean fully repent of evey sin. If we don’t completely repent, then we will meet Jesus Christ with sin we haven’t fully repented from. And how about the sins of omission? We not only choose to do wrong but fail to do good and sin at times when we fail to give others the charity God requires, therefore we “sin” and aren’t even congnative of what we do. That sin will also be carried unto death and will need purging for heaven and sin don’t mix.

 

[believers]

How do you know for sure that Catholicism changed the word? Do you understand Koine Greek?

Is “religion” a bad thing?
If it is to you then try reading James 1:27 “Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world.”

Notice how James in saying those who are of a “true religion” do works of charity, hence Gal 5:6…“faith working through love”

Why did you insert [it is] if it’s not in the original Greek manuscripts?

Notice this verse in James 2:24…it’s the King James Version.

“Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.” (KJV)

Unto means for good works and it is those good works that are part of the process our justification.

Phil 2:12—
"Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling." (KJV)

Perhaps rereading James 2:24-26 would help?

"Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way? For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also." (King James Version)

Notice there is a distinction between “works” and “works of law” or “works of the law” The former are those done for justification, the two later are legalistic works of the Torah that no longer justify post new covenant.

What’s your point on this verse?

What is faith?

Hbr 11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

Rom 10:17 So then faith [cometh] by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

2Cr 5:7 (For we walk by faith, not by sight

As for works, we obey the Word of God. Doers of the Word.

Rom 2:13 (For not the hearers of the law [are] just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

 

[Bishopite]

What is faith?

Hbr 11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

Rom 10:17 So then faith [cometh] by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

2Cr 5:7 (For we walk by faith, not by sight

As for works, we obey the Word of God. Doers of the Word.

Rom 2:13 (For not the hearers of the law [are] just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

What is your definition of “works?” How do you understand what the word “works” means?

 

[believers]

Right…through sanctification NOT that we are fully and completely sanctified and as I said prior, if we aren’t fully and completely sanctified at the moment of our death then sin and God’s glory don’t mix and hence we will need some purgation, this is what Catholicism calls “purgatory.”

Ah…yes we do still sin, however, we must repent and I mean fully repent of evey sin. If we don’t completely repent, then we will meet Jesus Christ with sin we haven’t fully repented from. And how about the sins of omission? We not only choose to do wrong but fail to do good and sin at times when we fail to give others the charity God requires, therefore we “sin” and aren’t even congnative of what we do. That sin will also be carried unto death and will need purging for heaven and sin don’t mix.

It is impossible for anyone to fully repent of every sin. However, because I have faith in what Jesus has done on the cross, my iniquites are forgiven and my sins covered.

Purgatory can’t exist if you truly understand what Jesus has done on the cross.

I hope you consider this possibility, if you don’t believe that Jesus paid our debt in full with His own blood, then you may not be covered by the blood. You MUST have faith in Jesus.

 

[brkn1]

The penalty for even the smallest unforgiven sin on our soul at physical death will result in eternal death for us sinners.
There is absolutely nothing we sinners can suffer or do of ourselves that could appease the Perfectly Holy God for our sins. Only God Himself in the Person of Jesus Christ, the Sinless Redeemer, could pay the full penalty in our deserved place for all of our sins. The suggestion that we sinners are able to pay for or redeem any part of the penalty ignores the requirement that the redeemer must be perfectly sinless. A Perfectly Holy God will accept nothing less, and that is why God had to to the entire job Himself through our Lord and Redeemer, Jesus Christ.

 

[HailMary]

Purgatory can’t exist if you truly understand what Jesus has done on the cross.

Now, thats just bad theology!

2 Sam 1:12

And they mourned, and wept, and fasted until evening, for Saul, and for Jonathan his son, and for the people of the LORD, and for the house of Israel; because they were fallen by the sword.

It would appear that the mourners thought this would somehow benefit those that fell that day. I don’t see what fasting would do for the mourners themselves and the passage says that they did it “for” those that fell => Purgatory!

2 Maccabees 12:43-46:

He then took up a collection among all his soldiers, amounting to two thousand silver drachmas, which he sent to Jerusalem to provide for an expiatory sacrifice. In doing this he acted in a very excellent and noble way, inasmuch as he had the resurrection of the dead in view; or if he were not expecting the fallen to rise again, it would have been useless and foolish to pray for them in death. But if he did this with a view to the splendid reward that awaits those who had gone to rest in godliness, it was a holy and pious thought. Thus he made atonement for the dead that they might be freed from this sin.

 

[Bishopite]

[believers;1828625]It is impossible for anyone to fully repent of every sin. However, because I have faith in what Jesus has done on the cross, my iniquites are forgiven and my sins covered.

No it’s not impossible to be fully sanctified, difficult sure but not impossible. It’s the false Protestant notion of imputed righteousness, (that sin remains no matter how holy the person) that makes you think you can’t be without sin in yielding your every thought and action to God. Look at the Catholic Saints and you’ll see lives of true holiness, true devotion to Jesus Christ and the honesty to face their sin, no matter how small. The Catholic position of infused righteousness is much more Scriptural.

Purgatory can’t exist if you truly understand what Jesus has done on the cross

.

Jesus didn’t die on the cross to erradicate all freedom to not sin, or we would all be without it, He died as a propitiary sacrifice, to pay the price of the eternal consequences of sin, not to erradicate all of our freedom to still sin. And Jesus didn’t die so that you and I could do whatever we want, because there are consequences to every disobedient act; eternal consequences and temporal ones.

I hope you consider this possibility, if you don’t believe that Jesus paid our debt in full with His own blood, then you may not be covered by the blood. You MUST have faith in Jesus

Unfortunately you’ve been dooped into thinking if a person is Catholic then they have not accepted Jesus as their Lord and Savior, this is Scripturally and historically inaccurate.

And you’ve acknowledged that you still sin, yet you are saying Jesus took all of your sin away, how is it that you still sin?
Jesus did die for all of our sin, because any sin isn’t allowed in heaven (Rev 21:27) but Jesus’ death on the cross wasn’t to take away our freedom nor freewill that allows us to sin, otherwise we would be without sin.

Finally, I most certainly do have faith in Jesus. I am a former Baptist, I made the alter call at the age of eight, and for most all of my life I truly had faith in Jesus Christ and now as a Catholic I not only accept Him as my personal Lord and Savior, I receive Him on my tongue down my throat and into my belly each and every Sunday, and I’m SO thankful for that You left the Catholic church without knowning what it teaches and we again welcome you back when you are ready

 

[MrS]

I hope you consider this possibility, if you don’t believe that Jesus paid our debt in full with His own blood, then you may not be covered by the blood. You MUST have faith in Jesus.

Jesus’ death and resurrection re-opened the gates of Heaven and appeased the Father for the sins of mankind.

If Jesus paid our debt in full (your words), and the debt for many is eternal damnation… are you saying that
a] no one is in hell?
b] Jesus is in hell paying the debt of the condemned?

Why would we then be instructed to pick up our crosses and follow Him. The debt has been paid… or is Corinthians correct that we complete His work?

.

 

[MrS]

.

Unfortunately you’ve been dooped into thinking if a person is Catholic then they have not accepted Jesus as their Lord and Savior, this is Scripturally and historically inaccurate.

Finally, I most certainly do have faith in Jesus. I am a former Baptist, I made the alter call at the age of eight, and for most all of my life I truly had faith in Jesus Christ and now as a Catholic I not only accept Him as my personal Lord and Savior, I receive Him on my tongue down my throat and into my belly each and every Sunday, and I’m SO thankful for that You left the Catholic church without knowning what it teaches and we again welcome you back when you are ready

How true… and I have some “doops” in my own family. Two Baptist sons who bought into the “easy-believism” during my 25 years outside of the Church.

I will have to answer for what has happened to them… I will have to pay that price…not Jesus.

My own 8 year old grandson informed me he just got “saved”. It made his dad happy, so it must be true .

However, God is good… the dad is studying to preach… and I believe that in God’s time, he will start to see the lies and misconceptions upon which he builds his faith.

.

 

[JoeyWarren]

How true… and I have some “doops” in my own family. Two Baptist sons who bought into the “easy-believism” during my 25 years outside of the Church.

I will have to answer for what has happened to them… I will have to pay that price…not Jesus.

Talk about a nutshell…

 

[shawn34_a]

How true… and I have some “doops” in my own family. Two Baptist sons who bought into the “easy-believism” during my 25 years outside of the Church.

I will have to answer for what has happened to them… I will have to pay that price…not Jesus.

My own 8 year old grandson informed me he just got “saved”. It made his dad happy, so it must be true .

However, God is good… the dad is studying to preach… and I believe that in God’s time, he will start to see the lies and misconceptions upon which he builds his faith.

.

 

[Sixtus]

What if someone dies in an accident before they are completely perfect? Do they just go to Hell?

Yes, they have salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth. They don’t go to Hell. They go to Heaven.

Amen

They go to Heaven thanks to the redemptive power of Christ who opened the way to purgatory that they may achieve that state of final perfection

 

[BabyDoll4]

Isaiah 1:17-19
17 learn to do right!
Seek justice,
encourage the oppressed. [a]
Defend the cause of the fatherless,
plead the case of the widow.

18 “Come now, let us reason together,”
says the LORD.
"Though your sins are like scarlet,
they shall be as white as snow;
though they are red as crimson,
they shall be like wool.

19 If you are willing and obedient,
you will eat the best from the land;

How does this “fit” in with the idea of purgatory? I am not a Catholic (I am being drawn to the RCC) and only just beginning to learn these things. I was of the understanding that once we accepted the sacrifice of Christ, that our sins are wiped clean. Now wouldn’t it stand to be reasonable that as we sin (which we all know we do even after salvation) and we repent of those sins daily, that there wouldn’t be any need for further purification after death?

 

[shawn34_a]

Amen

They go to Heaven thanks to the redemptive power of Christ who opened the way to purgatory that they may achieve that state of final perfection

I suppose it’s up to God. Jesus will judge them according to God’s will. If they didn’t receive Christ, repent of their sins, and be baptized, who knows. Christ was pretty specific in the NT about entering the kingdom of God. At the point of conception we receive God in our conscience. So anyone who says that they don’t know Him lies.

 

[Sixtus]

I was of the understanding that once we accepted the sacrifice of Christ, that our sins are wiped clean. Now wouldn’t it stand to be reasonable that as we sin (which we all know we do even after salvation) and we repent of those sins daily, that there wouldn’t be any need for further purification after death?

Absolutely. Yes I agree

But what of those sins we do not repent? What about the sins I forget to repent for?

What about the good Christian soldier who lives a good life but just happened to commit a mortal sin seconds before the bullet that kills him arrives, for which he has not had time to reflect or repent? Is this otherwise good soul condemned to hell for all eternity?

I think not. But we know ‘nothing defiled can enter heaven’, therefore there must be some process of cleansing beyond this life.

St Paul puts it nicely when he says that '‘For each man’s work will be tested by fire. If his work stands, he will be reqarded but it it burns, he will have to bear the loss; yet he will escape with his life’. 1 Cor ch 3: 14-15.

Now what St Paul is saying is that a good person’s work will be proven as good but someone not so good, their work will burn but they will survive, yet be purged by fire.

The CC has long put a name to that process St Paul describes, she has called it Purgatory.