Why do Protestants object to Purgatory?

[brkn1]

Purgatory versus being “justified” before death.

Let’s look at (Romans 3:28) “Therefore we conclude that a man is “justified” by faith (in Jesus) without the deeds of the law.”
Then let’s go to a verse that Catholics love to quote: (James 2:24) “Ye see then how that by works a man is “justified”, and not by faith only.”

Both verses point to the need for us to be “justified” in Christ before we die. Not being “justified” means we are condemned to eternal damnation.

The word “justified” should be carefully studied.
As I understand it, the biblical meaning of being “justified” is that God treats the “justified” sinner as if the “justified” sinner had not been a sinner at all.

In (Luke 15:22), the father immediately put on the best robe (Jesus’ “robe of righteousness” in (Isaiah 61:10)) upon the prodigal son, without there being any mention of first cleaning up the filthy son. Whether the son was cleaned up before or after makes no difference, since it would be hard to see such cleaning as painful.

The main point is that the need for Purgatory after death would mean that God does not see us as “justified” at death. The biblical word “justified” would then have to take on a vague meaning that God’s Word never allows for such an important word as “justified”.

 

[AlegreFe]

now a guud spelar wood no that it is “uups”

To make a long story short, about 1990 two young men, 20 and 21, came to my house… they were Baptists looking to save Catholics. They were clear that Catholics were going to hell, period. With floppy bible in hand, they offered me easy salvation… and stressed out my non-Catholic wife.

At the time I only knew they were so wrong… but not why. Guess it was all those years of mom’s Masses and rosaries.

At the time I did not even have a Bible, and had been away from the Church since my college years. Anyway, they ended up blowing on the few last sparks of real life in me.

I needed some answers so I could refute what I knew was goofy (or guufy ).

But I am actually grateful to those two men. They returned often to “argue” the faith… also upsetting to my wife. And as the older of two began his own business, I would go on the weekends to help him… and we would talk “Romans” for hours and hours.

So today, I am back in the Church with my Catholic-convert wife… lots of Bibles, a 1500+ book(buuk) library, and a realization that there is so much more to learn and do… and the grey hairs remind me of the limited time I have left.

As for the two young men, grown now with families of their own… they are still Baptist and love the Lord in their lives… well we still talk often, and see each other when we can … afterall, they are my second and third sons.

We certainly don’t argue any more… and I don’t often “discuss” Romans with John… He is attending a “Bible College” part time and is very active in his Baptist church. revivalmidwest.org/midwestbible.asp which is very suspect (IMHO), but I think it is all part of God’s plan. If it is true, that when one really delves into Scripture, they cannot help but become Catholic… that will happen to John.

Mike and I , on the other hand, do have more discussions (although lately we have been a bit lax). He is more open to baptism, purgatory, Mary etc… but, understandable, is in a difficult position with a Baptist wife and family.

Thank God that God is God.

I will persevere… and rely on my sense of humor (as other posters may attest to) to replace some of the pain.

I love your story. My protestant brother asked me if I believed in Purgatory and I said yes. He then asked me why I believe and that I can have proof for everything and that faith is not necessarily “blind” faith.

That is when I dove into Scripture and started reading Catholic material. I’ve spent thousands of dollars on books, tapes, CDs and DVDs. I also bought pamphlets and booklets to pass around and leave at Churches before and after Mass. I haven’t had the guts yet to go to a Protestant church to pass out pamphlets after their Sunday service. Do you think that would be a good idea? I would have to know what time their services are and I would have to pray about it. I just don’t know.

 

[AlegreFe]

That puts a whole new light on things for me. <— (that’s me, my eyes have been opened a little more) I have heard this before many times growing up in the church, and I have associated it with life after death. However, after reading this rather lengthy thread, it is more understandable because indeed no unclean thing will enter heaven. :getholy: <— (that’s the light clickin’ on upstairs hehehe )

I’m so glad that God has given you the light to see. God bless you on your journey.

Have you ever watched EWTN? That is a good place to go to learn about what the Catholic Church teaches. In this month they are showing a lot of Pro-Life shows and they’ve all been good. It’s this month for Pro-Life because it was on January 22, 1973 that horrific abortion became legal in the US.

I love this pdf webpage. You can’t be Catholic and Pro-Abortion.

 

[MrS]

I love your story. My protestant brother asked me if I believed in Purgatory and I said yes. He then asked me why I believe and that I can have proof for everything and that faith is not necessarily “blind” faith.

That is when I dove into Scripture and started reading Catholic material. I’ve spent thousands of dollars on books, tapes, CDs and DVDs. I also bought pamphlets and booklets to pass around and leave at Churches before and after Mass. I haven’t had the guts yet to go to a Protestant church to pass out pamphlets after their Sunday service. Do you think that would be a good idea? I would have to know what time their services are and I would have to pray about it. I just don’t know.

When I would work with John I noticed that he was passing out tracts, leaving then in the stalls of the mens room for “reading material”.

I took them… brought them back to him… and dropped them in a paint bucket. I told him I was so disappointed that he would revert to using trash to trash my Church… (they were ChickTracts). Ever since, I have been opposed to doing anything like that at local faith communities. (Notice that I rarely apply to “church” to other denomination, and I have reasons for that).

Instead I am near the point of using the 4x6 glossy “postcard” type of mailer… an invite to come to the church activities center and ask/inquire/complain or whatever, about the ideas anyone may have about the Catholic Faith. This would be a “mass-mailing” … no pun intended… to about 1500 homes at a time.

funny you should mention the $$$$$ on books, CDs, tapes etc. I devoted a 12x15 room to just m library, and the duplicating equipment (CD, DVD, Cassette) I use for give-aways at the local fairs and festivals, and for some work I do for some apologists… all well spent I think… no wonder I’m always broke

.

 

[Bishopite]

[brkn1;1835355]Purgatory versus being “justified” before death.

First of all I’m not arguing against the Protestantisms use of justification, but whether all born again Christians when they die will be fully and completely *sanctified?
In other words, Protestantism says one is justified (made right before God) then one is sanctified (made holy) and sanctification is a process in Protestant theology, and nearly every born again Christian who is headed to heaven isn’t fully nor completely sanctified at the moment of their death, therefore sin remains and since sin and glory (heaven) are NOT compatable (cf. Rev 21:27) what happens to that sin?

Let’s look at (Romans 3:28) “Therefore we conclude that a man is “justified” by faith (in Jesus) without the deeds of the law.”

Even though I’m not arguing against the Protestant positions of justification, I’ll answer you anyway. Romans 3:28 does not say “faith alone” and Paul uses the word faith some 200 times in Romans yet never couples the word faith with the word alone. What he does is use the words faith and obedience together in sort of book ends in Romans 1:5 and 16:26, so that Paul is showing we need to have faith and obedience not faith alone in the antimonian sense.
The term “deeds of the law” refer to obedience to the cerimonial works of the Mosaic law i.e, circumcision, dietary restrictions like kosher meals, obedience to the Saturday Sabbath…etc., in other words obedience to the Torah. So if you are saying Catholicism teaches obedience to the Torah then you need to give proof. What we obey is the moral law of Christ, i.e., the commandments, not the cerimonial Jewish “works of the law.”

Then let’s go to a verse that Catholics love to quote: (James 2:24) “Ye see then how that by works a man is “justified”, and not by faith only.”

Both verses point to the need for us to be “justified” in Christ before we die. Not being “justified” means we are condemned to eternal damnation.

The word “justified” should be carefully studied.
As I understand it, the biblical meaning of being “justified” is that God treats the “justified” sinner as if the “justified” sinner had not been a sinner at all.

1. Catholics use James 2:24 verse because it IS the explicit teaching of the Bible. James 2:24 is a salvific negative explicitly saying a person is not saved by faith alone. In verse 17 it is also qualified since faith by itself is dead. Verse 21 Abraham is justified by his works [of charity] therefore sola fide is incorrect. In verse 22 Abrahams works complete his faith therefore that works are not part of our faith is antithetical to Scripture. Also in Matthew 25:31-46 it speaks of those things the righteous “did” and “do” for the poor and they as they “did” them and “do” those works of charity they did them as they were doing them to Jesus Himself, therefore showing we don’t just need faith alone but works of charity also. Also Phil 2:12 says work out your salvation with fear and trembling. How do we work out our salvation? Well by our personal works we CAN’T. But by our works under the grace of God, we can.
   A huge problem with Protestants is their misunderstanding of the word “works.” When they hear the word “works” they almost always think of it as being “personal works” but Scripture uses “works” as personal works like Eph 2:8-9 but also uses the same word “works” as works of charity or works of love as Eph 2:10, and Gal 5:6. I know I was a Baptist for over thirty years.
2. The problem with your postion is that it allows a Christian to do what he wishes up to a certain point with their sin (perhaps look at pornography often or get drunk from time-to-time) and yet still be justified and without any ultimate consequences for their sin. And this same person is just as qualified for heaven as the other Christian who lead a very holy life obeying the commadments. One would have to question how far can a Christian sin and still be justified??

Martin Luther proposed this theological novum by saying he could commit adultery many times a day and still be justified, and that is completely without Scriptural merit. Paul says in 1 Cor 9:27 that after running the [Christian] race and after preaching Christ to others he himself could also be disqualified, or that if he didn’t obey God he could also disqualify himself from entering heaven.

1. The idea that God treats a sinner as though he wasn’t a sinner at all is not what Scripture teaches. Hebrews 12:14 says God chasens those whom He loves. Why would He chasen those who are fully and completely justified? What need would there be since they already posess justification neccessary for heaven? Also, there were consequences to King David’s sin with Bathsheba, namely their baby died proving that their are consequences of sin both eternal and temporal.

 

[Bishopite]

In (Luke 15:22), the father immediately put on the best robe (Jesus’ “robe of righteousness” in (Isaiah 61:10)) upon the prodigal son, without there being any mention of first cleaning up the filthy son. Whether the son was cleaned up before or after makes no difference, since it would be hard to see such cleaning as painful.

Luke 15:22 isn’t a text that neccessarily points to the Catholic concept of purgatory. Matthew 5:25-26 is a better example of purgatory…"Settle with your opponent quickly while on the way to court with him. Otherwise your opponent will hand you over to the judge, and the judge will hand you over to the guard, and you will be thrown into prison.

“Amen, I say to you, **you will not be released until you have paid the last penny.” **

In Luke 15 the prodigal son is returning from a pig sty to the father, now that had to be a cleansing wouldn’t you say? Would’nt you think it was painful for the son to return to the father? Admitting you are wrong and wayward, swallowing his pride and becoming humble is always “painful.”

The main point is that the need for Purgatory after death would mean that God does not see us as “justified” at death. The biblical word “justified” would then have to take on a vague meaning that God’s Word never allows for such an important word as “justified”.

Well, no because all those in the state/place of purgatory are going to heaven they are already justified, they have sanctifying grace, they just need to be scrubbed down a little before entering heaven
1 Cor 3:15 says that person will be “saved” but still “suffer lose” yet there is no suffering in heaven and no one can get out of hell, and yet that person is suffering through fire but yet justified. This suggests another place/state that a justified person goes to who isn’t fully sanctified and needs to be purged from the sins they failed to fully and completely repent from.

Even in Protestant theology, one can justified and not yet fully sanctified. The two terms are made distinct from each other in Protestant theology, yet linked together also, so that when a person is “justified” in a forensic juridical imputed righteousness way (or covered by Christs righteousness) one is made right before God, and then becomes sanctified, but NOT fully nor completely sanctified, for sanctification IS a “process” in Protestant theology.

See post #731 and here is the link that Protestants teach sanctification is a process…
abideinchrist.com/selah/feb3.html

And if one is NOT fully/completely sanctified at the moment of death and that will be most every Christian, then what does God do with that person who can’t enter heaven because he/she isn’t fully without sin? (Rev 21:27)

 

[SoonerServant]

Just so everyone’s clear on the meaning on the word “repent” I’ll go back to the Greek root. The term most of you are using is the word “metanoeo” which means; to repent, to change any or all the elements composing one’s life: attitude, thoughts and behavior’s concerning the demands of God for right living. So we see here that even if someone confesses there sins, they may not have gained forgiveness. The person must also make an attempt to change the element(s) in their life that caused the sin. It’s kind of like if you hit someone, then realize that you hurt them. If you say you were sorry, then hit them again on purpose, you were not truly sorry in the first place. Really, what it boils down to, are the intentions of the heart. Which, as we all know, are only seen by God.

 

[SoonerServant]

And on Luke 12:54-59.

54He said to the crowd: "When you see a cloud rising in the west, immediately you say, ‘It’s going to rain,’ and it does. 55And when the south wind blows, you say, ‘It’s going to be hot,’ and it is. 56Hypocrites! You know how to interpret the appearance of the earth and the sky. How is it that you don’t know how to interpret this present time?
57"Why don’t you judge for yourselves what is right? 58As you are going with your adversary to the magistrate, try hard to be reconciled to him on the way, or he may drag you off to the judge, and the judge turn you over to the officer, and the officer throw you into prison. 59I tell you, you will not get out until you have paid the last penny.

Before the parable, Jesus states that this is for the present time. Not some time after death.

 

[AlegreFe]

I have not met a Catholic yet that did not believe in the Rapture theory.

Just because you haven’t met a Catholic that didn’t believe in the rapture theory does not mean that it is true. Who are these Catholics? Are they the Pope? Just because they are Catholic and say they believe in the rapture does not mean that the rapture is true. Those Catholics just don’t know the teachings of the Church that’s all.

I put these links in my post. Did you even bother reading some of it?

Here is a review by Carl E. Olson.
He reviews a book called The Rapture Trap by Paul Thigpen, Ph.D.

Catholics and the Rapture CDs

Five Myths About the Rapture by Carl Olson.

I Used to Believe in the Rapture, And All I Got Was This Stupid T-Shirt
by Carl E. Olson

 

[Bishopite]

Just so everyone’s clear on the meaning on the word “repent” I’ll go back to the Greek root. The term most of you are using is the word “metanoeo” which means; to repent, to change any or all the elements composing one’s life: attitude, thoughts and behavior’s concerning the demands of God for right living. So we see here that even if someone confesses there sins, they may not have gained forgiveness. The person must also make an attempt to change the element(s) in their life that caused the sin. It’s kind of like if you hit someone, then realize that you hurt them. If you say you were sorry, then hit them again on purpose, you were not truly sorry in the first place. Really, what it boils down to, are the intentions of the heart. Which, as we all know, are only seen by God.

That’s a great point and what we’ve been trying to show those on this thread who deny the Biblical truth of purgatory. When we sin and then ask God for forgiveness, He is faithful to forgive us, however we also are accountable for those sins we freely commit, be they great or small.

 

[shawn34_a]

Just because you haven’t met a Catholic that didn’t believe in the rapture theory does not mean that it is true. Who are these Catholics? Are they the Pope? Just because they are Catholic and say they believe in the rapture does not mean that the rapture is true. Those Catholics just don’t know the teachings of the Church that’s all.

I put these links in my post. Did you even bother reading some of it?

Here is a review by Carl E. Olson.
He reviews a book called The Rapture Trap by Paul Thigpen, Ph.D.

Catholics and the Rapture CDs

Five Myths About the Rapture by Carl Olson.

I Used to Believe in the Rapture, And All I Got Was This Stupid T-Shirt
by Carl E. Olson

You don’t understand then what I was talking about. Those that are Catholic that I know, believed that the Church was going to be raptured before the beginning of the tribulation. The Bible is quite clear of when the rapture is going to happen. Check under the rapture posts. I read the review and the 5 points you had listed. The means by which the rapture happens in the five points is far from Biblical doctrine. I listed in the rapture column how it was to take place and when though no one knows the day or hour.
The fact is that the rapture is real. It is the second coming of Christ where he calls those that were beheaded in his name and those that did not receive the mark of the beast during the tribulation. The rest that are left behind dead sleep until the final judgement. Those that are alive still, face all of God’s wrath on mankind. This is the pouring out of the bowels. At the conclusion, Satan is bound up for the thousand years and Christ will rain along with those that he called up at the first judgement (Day of the Lord, Coming of the Lord, Coming as a thief at Night). If you choose not to believe it, that’s your choice. But remember the parable of the women and their lamp oils. The Bible goes out of it’s way to keep making mention of the second coming. Jesus did say we would know the generation and the signs of the time.

 

[jmcrae]

Shawn;

How can there be a Tribulation (a persecution of the Church on earth) if the Church is already in Heaven?

When Jesus comes, that’s it; the end of the world and then the Last Judgment. There will be no human beings left on the earth after the Last Judgement - everyone will either be in Heaven, or else in Hell. There will be no Tribulation after that.

Jesus is only coming in His human body to the earth once more - He is not coming twice. The First Coming has already been; the Second Coming is the Judgement Day. There isn’t going to be a “Once and a half” Coming.

 

[believers]

Shawn;

How can there be a Tribulation (a persecution of the Church on earth) if the Church is already in Heaven?

When Jesus comes, that’s it; the end of the world and then the Last Judgment. There will be no human beings left on the earth after the Last Judgement - everyone will either be in Heaven, or else in Hell. There will be no Tribulation after that.

Jesus is only coming in His human body to the earth once more - He is not coming twice. The First Coming has already been; the Second Coming is the Judgement Day. There isn’t going to be a “Once and a half” Coming.

After the rapture, many left behind will realize that you must have faith in Jesus. Many will turn to Him during the 7 years. Unfortunately, they will probably meet a horrific end in doing so.

 

[jmcrae]

After the rapture, many left behind will realize that you must have faith in Jesus. Many will turn to Him during the 7 years. Unfortunately, they will probably meet a horrific end in doing so.

How can they turn to Him, if the Church is already gone?

(Does Jesus come back down in yet another Coming (making for a grand total of four, so far), to establish a second Church?) :whacky:

 

[believers]

How can they turn to Him, if the Church is already gone?

(Does Jesus come back down in yet another Coming (making for a grand total of four, so far), to establish a second Church?) :whacky:

People who know what happened to the missing people will know that the rapture occurred. Then, those same people will believe and turn to Jesus in faith.

For example, let’s say we disappear tomorrow. People like yourself will know what happened. Then you’ll turn from your sins and turn to Jesus in faith. You are now the church which is left.

 

[Sixtus]

I’d still like to know why people think God needs to punish people.

Quite the opposite in fact. I ask you one question;

Were you to die right now and an angel said to you ‘come and I will show you God’! Would you go?

You cannot use the Scriptures against the Church whose Scriptures they are

 

[believers]

Quite the opposite in fact. I ask you one question;

Were you to die right now and an angel said to you ‘come and I will show you God’! Would you go?

You cannot use the Scriptures against the Church whose Scriptures they are

Col 3:4
When Christ, [who is] our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory.

Col 3:5
Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth; fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affection, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is idolatry:

Col 3:6
For which things’ sake the wrath of God cometh on the children of disobedience:

 

[Sixtus]

For example, let’s say we disappear tomorrow. People like yourself will know what happened. Then you’ll turn from your sins and turn to Jesus in faith. You are now the church which is left.

No disrespects but one suspects you have had a very sheltered upbringing.

I work for the Correctional and Social Services. I work in the ‘real’ world!

People like yourself will know what happened

I can tell you that the average ‘non-believer’ on seeing his neighbour disapear would not even stop to think where they went to. They would probably keep an eye on the empty house to see if it is worth burgling. Or if the car is worth pinching before some other smart person pinches it.

hen you’ll turn from your sins and turn to Jesus in faith

Tell them that and they would die with laughter.
But as for ‘turning from their sins’, they do not even believe in such a concept. Sins are the foolishness of believers. Smarter folk don’t sin, they just take advantage of opportunities.

You are now the church which is left

Some Church, probably be organised along the lines of the average ‘Hells Angels’ or ‘Outcast Chapters’. There would indeed be sacrifices: human sacrifices. The only collection that would be taken up would be ‘used kneedles’ and any spare cannibis

 

[jmcrae]

People who know what happened to the missing people will know that the rapture occurred. Then, those same people will believe and turn to Jesus in faith.

For example, let’s say we disappear tomorrow. People like yourself will know what happened. Then you’ll turn from your sins and turn to Jesus in faith. You are now the church which is left.

So, what got raptured? If the Church got raptured, then it’s gone. It doesn’t matter how you define “church” - if it’s gone, then it’s not here.

We have the promise of the Second Coming of Jesus Christ, but there is no promise in Scripture about a second Church.

 

[jmcrae]

Col 3:4
When Christ, [who is] our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory.

This will be at the Second Coming. The Saints and Martyrs of the Early Church are the “clouds” upon which He will be descending. Paul was speaking to his own generation - they are already up in Heaven. They will come down with Christ in glory at the Second Coming.

Col 3:5
**Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth; **fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affection, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is idolatry:

Col 3:6
For which things’ sake the wrath of God cometh on the children of disobedience:

And how do we mortify our members while we are here on earth? By doing our Penances, of course!!