Why do Protestants object to Purgatory?

[AlegreFe]

Preach the gospel as the Bible says.

Priests in the bible offered sacrifces. Jesus Himself said that He did not come to abolish the law but to fulfill it. There is a new High Priest and that is Jesus. He offered Himself as a Sacrifice. And since He still offers Himself then we also partake in offering our own lives as Sacrifice.

When the Priest during Mass says, “Through Him, with Him, In Him, In the Unity of the Holy Spirit, all Glory & Honor is yours Almighty Father, Forever and Ever” we give of ourselves by saying “Amen” after that. I give my life through Jesus Christ and with Jesus Christ and In Jesus Christ.

rbarcia:

Nobody gave you this role, you gave it to yourself

Jesus Christ gave us all the role of priesthood. I thought you believed in that also.

rbarcia:

There is nothing Christ lacks.

Tell that to Paul.

24 Now I rejoice in my sufferings for your sake,
and in my flesh I am filling up what is lacking in
the afflictions of Christ on behalf of his body,
which is the church Col 1:24

rbarcia:

You can only stay in grace, by grace?

Sounds strange I know. It’s hard to explain… well not really. Being in the State of Grace and receiving grace to do something are two different things. God can give me the graces to want to go to Confession. So I go and then I receive Jesus Christ. Anything good that I do is only by the Grace of God. So I believe that the act of getting to that confessional and making a good confession is only because God gave me the grace to do that. I cannot do anything that is GOOD on my own, I need God’s grace. BUT the ULTIMATE in actually being in a State of Grace is different. Being in a state of grace means that my soul is wiped clean of all sin. And the only way that can happen is if I go to confession and confess my sins and receive Jesus Christ in Holy Communion. If you are not Catholic you would have to repent of your sins in a perfect act of contrition out of Love for God and not out of fear of Hell. But that should be done every day of your life and not just the one time that you “accept Jesus as your Savior.”
I would not be able to do it that way. I would want to be absolutely sure that I am absolved of my sins and the only way I can do that is by going to confession to a Priest.

Jesus “sent” His Apostles to forgive sins. Our Priests have authority to absolve me of my sins by the Holy Spirit. Jesus blew on His Apostles and told them to “receive the Holy Spirit” and “whose sins you forgive are forgiven and whose sins you retain are retained.” That right there says that only the Priest can forgive sins. When I go to confession it is Jesus Christ with me in the confessional. The Priest is just there to stand “In Persona Christi.”

19 On the evening of that first day of the week, when
the doors were locked, where the disciples were, for fear of
the Jews, Jesus came and stood in their midst and said to them,
“Peace be with you.”
20 When he had said this, he showed them his hands and
his side. The disciples rejoiced when they saw the Lord.
21 (Jesus) said to them again, “Peace be with you. As
the Father has sent me, so I send you.”
22 And when he had said this, he breathed on them and
said to them, “Receive the holy Spirit.
23 Whose sins you forgive are forgiven them, and whose
sins you retain are retained.” John 20:19-23

rbarcia:

This does not make sense to me, Christ is no longer suffering, the sacrificed is finished. Persecution and suffering may be required of you by God, but not for getting into heaven, but for spreading th gospel of Christ.

That statement “it is finished” can also mean “it has begun” in Greek. I posted something about that in another thread but I think it went when the hacker got in here and eliminated a lot of our posts.
Not only that, Christ is suffering as we speak. God transcends time so the Sacrifice of the Lamb is always present to the Father.

6 And between the throne and the four living creatures
and among the elders, I saw a Lamb standing, as though
it had been slain, with seven horns and with seven eyes,
which are the seven spirits of God sent out into all the earth Rev 5:6

Cont…

 

[AlegreFe]

…Cont

rbarcia:

AlegreFe:

If you scroll back in this thread and read some previous posts of mine and of other Catholics here, hopefully you will at least, start to understand what we mean by “offering up” and what we mean by Purgatory.

I know what you mean, it does not mean its true because you have defined it. I know what it means to steal for example, knowing the meaning does not make it right.

I did not define it. It is a fact from the Teachings of Jesus Christ from Sacred Tradition. Paul even says to “rejoice in your sufferings” for the sake of Christ’s Body the Church. I thought Protestants stand firm on Paul’s writings in Scripture.

Purgatory does not exist because Catholics believe it. It exists because it is an OBJECTIVE TRUTH.

 

[Mr.Ex_Nihilo]

AlegreFe you’ve raised some very good points for me to consider further. Like I said before, I could be wrong. I probably am.

I’ll have to read up on this further to understand this better.

Thanks again.

 

[rbarcia]

The Sacrifice of the Mass is THE SINGLE sacrifice. It is the Sacrifice of Calvary. It is not a a sacrifice that is repeated every day.

So the communion is the same event that happened on the cross? So in time, the last supper is the first time Christ died for sins, not the cross? So at the last supper, when he saids “This is my Body which will be given up for you”, He was stating at that moment at the Table, Christ died?

How can the communion be the same sacrifice as Calvary?

**

Hebrews 10

11 And every priest stands ministering daily and offering repeatedly the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins. 12 But this Man, after He had offered one sacrifice for sins forever, sat down at the right hand of God, 13 from that time waiting till His enemies are made His footstool. 14 For by one offering He has perfected forever those who are being sanctified.
15 But the Holy Spirit also witnesses to us; for after He had said before,
16 “This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, says the LORD: I will put My laws into their hearts, and in their minds I will write them,” 17 then He adds, “Their sins and their lawless deeds I will remember no more.” 18 Now where there is remission of these, there is no longer an offering for sin.

**

At every Mass there is an offering. The Bible says there is no more an offering for sin. So you are no longer offering, but you are?

How is this not a conflict?

 

[Mr.Ex_Nihilo]

So the communion is the same event that happened on the cross? So in time, the last supper is the first time Christ died for sins, not the cross? So at the last supper, when he saids “This is my Body which will be given up for you”, He was stating at that moment at the Table, Christ died?

How can the communion be the same sacrifice as Calvary?

**

Hebrews 10

11 And every priest stands ministering daily and offering repeatedly the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins. 12 But this Man, after He had offered one sacrifice for sins forever, sat down at the right hand of God, 13 from that time** waiting till His enemies are made His footstool. 14 For by one offering He has perfected forever those who are being sanctified.
15 But the Holy Spirit also witnesses to us; for after He had said before,
16 “This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, says the LORD: I will put My laws into their hearts, and in their minds I will write them,” 17 then He adds, “Their sins and their lawless deeds I will remember no more.” 18 Now where there is remission of these, there is no longer an offering for sin.

At every Mass there is an offering. The Bible says there is no more an offering for sin. So you are no longer offering, but you are?

How is this not a conflict?

But if Revelation 13:8 says the Lamb that was slain from the creation of the world, then where does this leave your arguments?

2 Thessalonians 2:13 says we ought always to thank God for you, brothers loved by the Lord, because from the beginning God chose you to be saved through the sanctifying work of the Spirit and through belief in the truth.

2 Timothy 1:9 also says this grace was given us in Christ Jesus before the beginning of time.

Titus 1:2 says we have a faith and knowledge that rests on the hope of eternal life, which God, who does not lie, promised before the beginning of time.

1 John 3:8 says he who does what is sinful is of the devil, because the devil has been sinning from the beginning. In fact, the reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the devil’s work.

When did Christ actually die rbarcia?

 

[rbarcia]

But if Revelation 13:8 says the Lamb that was slain from the creation of the world, then where does this leave your arguments?

You need to read that again.
**

Rev 13:8

8 All who dwell on the earth will worship him, whose names have not been written in the Book of Life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

**

It is the names who have been written since the foundation of the world. Slain is past tense. The American Standard version translates this better.

**

Rev 13:8

8 And all that dwell on the earth shall worship him, every one whose name hath not been written from the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb that hath been slain.

**

This is consistent with the context, read Rev 17:8 four chapters later

**
Revelation 17:8

8 The beast that you saw was, and is not, and will ascend out of the bottomless pit and go to perdition. And those who dwell on the earth will marvel, whose names are not written in the Book of Life from the foundation of the world, when they see the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.

**

So it is obvious that it is the names that have been written since the foundation of the world, not the Lamb being slain

2 Thessalonians 2:13 says we ought always to thank God for you, brothers loved by the Lord, because from the beginning God chose you to be saved through the sanctifying work of the Spirit and through belief in the truth.

Yes, the fact that God chose and knows who will be saved does not translate to an ever happening sacrifice.

2 Timothy 1:9 also says this grace was given us in Christ Jesus before the beginning of time.

Titus 1:2 says we have a faith and knowledge that rests on the hope of eternal life, which God, who does not lie, promised before the beginning of time.

Again, this does not translate to an ever happening sacrifice. The Debt was paid once, the result, God’s saving Grace is eternal.

1 John 3:8 says he who does what is sinful is of the devil, because the devil has been sinning from the beginning. In fact, the reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the devil’s work.

Yes the devil has been sinning since the beginning, but Christ has not been dying since the beginning. God extended His grace back to the beginning of the world, based on the one time event where Christ paid our fine.

When did Christ actually die rbarcia?

Christ died around 2000 years ago, and the rose from the dead, proving He is God. You have shown no evidence by these verses of an ever happening sacrifice. Just that God has extended His Grace throughout time, which is not the same thing.

 

[Mr.Ex_Nihilo]

You need to read that again.

Rev 13:8 All who dwell on the earth will worship him, whose names have not been written in the Book of Life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world./b]

It is the names who have been written since the foundation of the world. Slain is past tense. The American Standard version translates this better.

I have read it. It says the the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

Rev 13:8 And all that dwell on the earth shall worship him, every one whose name hath not been written from the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb that hath been slain.

So it is obvious that it is the names that have been written since the foundation of the world, not the Lamb being slain.

I don’t think it’s that obvious.

Why do so many translations I read state something to effect that his work has been finished since the creation/foundation of the world?

Yes the devil has been sinning since the beginning, but Christ has not been dying since the beginning. God extended His grace back to the beginning of the world, based on the one time event where Christ paid our fine.

Sounds like he was slain from the foundation of the word to me.

Christ died around 2000 years ago, and the rose from the dead, proving He is God. You have shown no evidence by these verses of an ever happening sacrifice. Just that God has extended His Grace throughout time, which is not the same thing.

If his work was finished from the creation of the world, then Christ died from the foundation of the word.

His words on the cross “It is finished” echo the very same words that God spoke when he rested from his work on the seventh day.

 

[Jana1976]

Why do Protestants object to Pergatory when it is a Biblical concept. It was also believed by the Jews of Jesus day.In that snese belief in Purgatory was not created by the CC but inherited from it’s earliest roots of Judaism. There is no evidence that the Lord refuted this teaching. So why do Protestants not accept it?

I have done amature studies on many denominations of Christianity. The most similar thing to purgatory I have found is the Latter Day Saint (Mormon) concept of “Spirit Prision”. In the Mormon faith, it is believed that “Spirit Prision” is a place where people who never had a chance to hear the truth (to them, the Mormon version) go. They believe that if they didn’t have the chance to hear and believe in this world, they can have the chance in the next, because they didn’t actively deny the truth, they don’t deserve to go to hell. So far, this is the only other state that I have found in which the soul of the dead is neither in Heaven nor in hell.

 

[MariaG]

I have done amature studies on many denominations of Christianity. The most similar thing to purgatory I have found is the Latter Day Saint (Mormon) concept of “Spirit Prision”. In the Mormon faith, it is believed that “Spirit Prision” is a place where people who never had a chance to hear the truth (to them, the Mormon version) go. They believe that if they didn’t have the chance to hear and believe in this world, they can have the chance in the next, because they didn’t actively deny the truth, they don’t deserve to go to hell. So far, this is the only other state that I have found in which the soul of the dead is neither in Heaven nor in hell.

Purgatory is not a second chance at getting to heaven. It is the name that is given to what/when God purifies us and makes us completely Holy and fit to enter the kingdom of heaven.

It is not a second chance at confessing sin. It is not a second chance to get out of hell free.

It is the name to the biblical concept of when God purifies us as if through fire and makes us fit for heaven. Jesus’s sacrifice is the only reason that this is possible.

God Bless,
Maria

 

[AlegreFe]

Why? Was Christ’s suffering incomplete? Imperfect? Unsatisfactory? Why do you require a share in His suffering in order to be admitted to full fellowship with Him?

No it wasn’t incomplete? The merits of Jesus Christ are sufficient for the Gates of Heaven to be open. But since we are part of His Body the Church we are to suffer also.

24 Now I rejoice in my sufferings for your sake,
and in my flesh I am filling up what is lacking in
the afflictions of Christ on behalf of his body,
which is the church Col 1:24

flameburns623:

Understand that I do not question but that Christians WILL suffer. The issue for Protestants is “why” we suffer and what ‘good’ it brings us. The Christian answer is that it brings NO good to us nor to anyone but is simply the natural consequence of being damnable sinners in a lost and damned world.

"it brings NO good to us*?**"* What?! How can you say that? (rhetorical question) Wow, some faith you have. Didn’t Christ’s sufferings bring some good to you? Yes. He gave us LIFE, everlasting life! So why wouldn’t OUR sufferings bring some good to us. God always brings something GOOD out of our sufferings. We get to “offer up” our sufferings for the remission of the sins of the world.

Look at some of the Saints’ lives;
St. Padre Pio
St. Francis of Assissi
St. Catherine of Siena
St. Faustina Kowalska
These saints and many others suffered in their lives. These saints in particular (there are more) suffered with the wounds of Christ. We call it stigmata.

If you ever suffered in your life or are suffering now just think of it as God trying to draw you closer to Him. If that isn’t GOOD I don’t know what is. Our suffering is the result of our sin (I’m sure you know that). But out of that suffering we get to recognize that we can share in our redemption. Christ’s dying on the cross made the Gift of Heaven FREE to us. To me that means the Gates of Heaven are OPEN to us. But either we can stand there and look at the open gate and do nothing and stay outside. OR we can participate and cooperate with God’s Grace and do something to get passed the Gate and into Heaven.

Jesus Himself told us to pick up our Cross and follow Him. He even said that a rich man has no chance of getting into heaven. A rich man has all the comforts in the world and does not appear to suffer physically because of those comforts that he has. Who knows what’s going on emotionally, spiritually and/or psychologically. I would think that there is something going on emotionally and/or spiritually as far as suffering.

Please pray to the Holy Spirit for an open mind and heart.
21 From that time on, Jesus began to show his
disciples that he must go to Jerusalem and
suffer greatly from the elders, the chief priests,
and the scribes, and be killed and on the third day
be raised.

24 Then Jesus said to his disciples, "Whoever wishes
to come after me must deny himself, take up his
cross, and follow me.
25 For whoever wishes to save his life will lose it,
but whoever loses his life for my sake will find it.
26 What profit would there be for one to gain the
whole world and forfeit his life? Or what can one give
in exchange for his life?
27 For the Son of Man will come with his angels in
his Father’s glory, and then he will repay everyone
according to his conduct. Mat 16:21, 24-27

The part that Jesus says “whoever wishes to come after me” tells me that whoever wants to be in Heaven with Him. Anyone who wants to be in Heaven with Jesus should pick up there crosses. If you do NOT see ANY GOOD in that then I don’t see how you can say you have Faith in Jesus Christ. I know you do believe in Jesus but you believe in a very different way than I do. The suffering that we accept and offer up can do us a great good. We will be repayed according to our conduct. It says so right there in scripture. To me, that is part of our Purgatory here on earth.

 

[AlegreFe]

So the communion is the same event that happened on the cross? So in time, the last supper is the first time Christ died for sins, not the cross? So at the last supper, when he saids “This is my Body which will be given up for you”, He was stating at that moment at the Table, Christ died?

:yup: You got it!

Have you ever seen “The Passion of the Christ?” If not, get the DVD or video. If you have seen it, get the DVD and watch it again. Jesus Christ’s FIRST (but the same) sacrifice was at the last supper. During the movie you can see flashbacks of the last supper when Jesus is being crucified. Another “first” (before the actual crucifixion) is His agony in the garden which was right after the last supper.

 

[AlegreFe]

AlegreFe you’ve raised some very good points for me to consider further. Like I said before, I could be wrong. I probably am.

I’ll have to read up on this further to understand this better.

Thanks again.

No problem. :tiphat: All for the Glory of God.

The sacrament of Confession is also called the Sacrament of Forgiveness among other names.

It is called the sacrament of forgiveness, since
by the priest’s sacramental absolution God
grants the penitent “pardon and peace.”

There is a lot of reading in that part of the CCC, the link above. It would make good reading for any Christian to read.

 

[believers]

Why do Protestants object to Pergatory when it is a Biblical concept. It was also believed by the Jews of Jesus day.In that snese belief in Purgatory was not created by the CC but inherited from it’s earliest roots of Judaism. There is no evidence that the Lord refuted this teaching. So why do Protestants not accept it?

So where exactly in the Bible does it say there’s such a place? I’d like to see the verses if you don’t mind.

 

[believers]

Purgatory is not a second chance at getting to heaven. It is the name that is given to what/when God purifies us and makes us completely Holy and fit to enter the kingdom of heaven.

It is not a second chance at confessing sin. It is not a second chance to get out of hell free.

It is the name to the biblical concept of when God purifies us as if through fire and makes us fit for heaven. Jesus’s sacrifice is the only reason that this is possible.

God Bless,
Maria

You guys keep saying that it’s biblical. Then where in the bible does it say this?

 

[believers]

For flameburns, is this all another pitch for “faith is all you need”?

Christ’s death was complete, but that does not excuse us of our individual accountability.

I guess the “cloak of righteousness” says to me that we are never truly purified of sin; that the “cloak” merely covers or hides our true unworthiness (as if this “disguise” fools God). Does this mean that we sneak into heaven under the disguise of righteousness?

Baptism washes away our original sin, but, given our free will, not our inclination to sin.

Yes we retain a “carnal” knowledge to sin, which means that when we die we die in a state of sin. Since sin cannot enter Heaven then what is the option? Send the faithful to Hell? Is not a purifying process, i.e. purgatory, the act of a loving God?

Hi, where in the bible does it say that “Baptism” washes away our original sin?

 

[AlegreFe]

So where exactly in the Bible does it say there’s such a place? I’d like to see the verses if you don’t mind.

• Where exactly in the Bible is the word “Trinity?”
• Where exactly in the bible does it explicitly say that “Jesus is God” in those exact words?
• Where exactly in the Bible does it say that in order to be saved you have to accept Jesus as your Lord and Savior?
• Where exactly in the Bible does it say that there can be thirty-three thousand different denominations of Christianity?
• Where exactly in the Bible does it say that the “Bible Alone” is the foundation for truth?
• Where exactly in the Bible does it say that “Faith Alone saves you?”
• Where exactly in the Bible does it have the word “Bible?”

This is just one of the scripture passages that we have for Purgatory.
25 Settle with your opponent quickly while on the way
to court with him. Otherwise your opponent will hand you over
to the judge, and the judge will hand you over to the guard,
and you will be thrown into prison.
26 Amen, I say to you, you will not be released until
you have paid the last penny. Mat 5:25-26

Here’s another:
29 Falling to his knees, his fellow servant begged
him, ‘Be patient with me, and I will pay you back.’
30 But he refused. Instead, he had him put in prison
until he paid back the debt.
31 Now when his fellow servants saw what had happened,
they were deeply disturbed, and went to their master and
reported the whole affair.
32 His master summoned him and said to him, ‘You
wicked servant! I forgave you your entire debt because you
begged me to.
33 Should you not have had pity on your fellow
servant, as I had pity on you?’
34 Then in anger his master handed him over to the
torturers until he should pay back the whole debt.
35 So will my heavenly Father do to you, unless each
of you forgives his brother from his heart." Mat 18:29-35

and another:
58 If you are to go with your opponent before a
magistrate, make an effort to settle the matter on the way;
otherwise your opponent will turn you over to the judge, and
the judge hand you over to the constable, and the constable
throw you into prison.
59 I say to you, you will not be released until you have
paid the last penny." Luke 12:58-59

These next passages speak of “another” place besides Heaven & Hell;
30 Whoever is not with me is against me, and whoever
does not gather with me scatters.
31 Therefore, I say to you, every sin and blasphemy
will be forgiven people, but blasphemy against the Spirit will
not be forgiven.
32 And whoever speaks a word against the Son of Man
will be forgiven; but whoever speaks against the holy Spirit
will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come. Mat 12:30-32

There is a rich man and a poor man. I think you would know the story right from the Bible right since you do read the bible right? Well instead of putting ALL the verses here for space sake I will just put the ones in question here. Where could the rich man be. Certainly not in Heaven, that is where the poor man is. Can he be in Hell? Can one have compassion for his living family if one is in Hell? No. So where is this rich man? There must be a third place right? Purgatory is the only other place there could be.
27 He said, ‘Then I beg you, father, send him to my
father’s house,
28 for I have five brothers, so that he may warn them,
lest they too come to this place of torment.’
29 But Abraham replied, ‘They have Moses and the
prophets. Let them listen to them.’
30 He said, ‘Oh no, father Abraham, but if someone from
the dead goes to them, they will repent.’
31 Then Abraham said, ‘If they will not listen to Moses
and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded if someone
should rise from the dead.’" Luke 16:27-31

…Cont

 

[AlegreFe]

Cont… (for believers)

believers:

You guys keep saying that it’s biblical. Then where in the bible does it say this?

None of us are perfect and clean as the driven snow right? I hope we can all agree on that. We are all sinners. But God is Mercy in deed. And one of the ways that God shows us His Mercy is through Purgatory. I thank God for Purgatory! Why? Because if there was no purgatory a great majority of us would end up in Hell.

These next passages say that nothing unclean can enter into Heaven. But then read what it says after that too;
26 The treasure and wealth of the nations will be brought there,
27 but nothing unclean will enter it, nor any (one) who does
abominable things or tells lies. Only those will enter whose
names are written in the Lamb’s book of life. Rev 21:26-27

Just because we are “unclean” does not mean that God did not forgive us. I come to that conclusion because of the next line. The next passage says “NOR anyone who does abominable things or tells lies.” Why does it have to specify here something different OTHER than “unclean.” I would think that the “unclean” can still be purified in Purgatory and the OTHER might not even be forgiven at all, therefore not entering into heaven. That is the way that I see this passage.

You can go to this great website, Scripture Catholic and read a lot more about Catholic Doctrine in Sacred Scripture.

 

[AlegreFe]

Hi, where in the bible does it say that “Baptism” washes away our original sin?

I can answer this but this would be off topic so I started a new thread on this subject matter. Check it out.

 

[jim1130]

jim1130:

For flameburns, is this all another pitch for “faith is all you need”?

Christ’s death was complete, but that does not excuse us of our individual accountability.

I guess the “cloak of righteousness” says to me that we are never truly purified of sin; that the “cloak” merely covers or hides our true unworthiness (as if this “disguise” fools God). Does this mean that we sneak into heaven under the disguise of righteousness?

Baptism washes away our original sin, but, given our free will, not our inclination to sin.

Yes we retain a “carnal” knowledge to sin, which means that when we die we die in a state of sin. Since sin cannot enter Heaven then what is the option? Send the faithful to Hell? Is not a purifying process, i.e. purgatory, the act of a loving God?

Hi, where in the bible does it say that “Baptism” washes away our original sin?

“One Baptism for the forgiveness of sins”

CCC 977 Our Lord tied the forgiveness of sins to faith and Baptism: "Go into all the world and preach the gospel to the whole creation. He who believes and is baptized will be saved."521 Baptism is the first and chief sacrament of forgiveness of sins because it unites us with Christ, who died for our sins and rose for our justification, so that "we too might walk in newness of life."522

CCC 978 "When we made our first profession of faith while receiving the holy Baptism that cleansed us, the forgiveness we received then was so full and complete that there remained in us absolutely nothing left to efface, neither original sin nor offenses committed by our own will, nor was there left any penalty to suffer in order to expiate them. . . . Yet the grace of Baptism delivers no one from all the weakness of nature. On the contrary, we must still combat the movements of concupiscence that never cease leading us into evil "523

CCC 979 In this battle against our inclination towards evil, who could be brave and watchful enough to escape every wound of sin? "If the Church has the power to forgive sins, then Baptism cannot be her only means of using the keys of the Kingdom of heaven received from Jesus Christ. The Church must be able to forgive all penitents their offenses, even if they should sin until the last moment of their lives."524

CCC 980 It is through the sacrament of Penance that the baptized can be reconciled with God and with the Church:

Penance has rightly been called by the holy Fathers “a laborious kind of baptism.” This sacrament of Penance is necessary for salvation for those who have fallen after Baptism, just as Baptism is necessary for salvation for those who have not yet been reborn.525

521 Mk 16:15-16.
522 Rom 6:4; Cf. 4:25.
523 Roman Catechism I, 11,3.
524 Roman Catechism I, 11,4.
525 Council Of Trent (1551): DS 1672; Cf. St. Gregory Of Nazianzus, Oratio 39,17G 36,356

**Now, may I ask of you the following: Please show me in the Bible, by book (it can be either OT or NT), chapter, and verse, which books specifically and identifiably are stated and defined to belong in the bible. Thak you. **

 

[believers]

This is just one of the scripture passages that we have for Purgatory.
25 Settle with your opponent quickly while on the way
to court with him. Otherwise your opponent will hand you over
to the judge, and the judge will hand you over to the guard,
and you will be thrown into prison.
26 Amen, I say to you, you will not be released until
you have paid the last penny. Mat 5:25-26

Here’s another:
29 Falling to his knees, his fellow servant begged
him, ‘Be patient with me, and I will pay you back.’
30 But he refused. Instead, he had him put in prison
until he paid back the debt.
31 Now when his fellow servants saw what had happened,
they were deeply disturbed, and went to their master and
reported the whole affair.
32 His master summoned him and said to him, ‘You
wicked servant! I forgave you your entire debt because you
begged me to.
33 Should you not have had pity on your fellow
servant, as I had pity on you?’
34 Then in anger his master handed him over to the
torturers until he should pay back the whole debt.
35 So will my heavenly Father do to you, unless each
of you forgives his brother from his heart." Mat 18:29-35

These next passages speak of “another” place besides Heaven & Hell;
30 Whoever is not with me is against me, and whoever
does not gather with me scatters.
31 Therefore, I say to you, every sin and blasphemy
will be forgiven people, but blasphemy against the Spirit will
not be forgiven.
32 And whoever speaks a word against the Son of Man
will be forgiven; but whoever speaks against the holy Spirit
will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come. Mat 12:30-32

…Cont

Are you aware that not one of you verses has anything to with dying and getting somehow cleansed then going to heaven? You are taking verses OUT OF CONTEXT. You can make the bible say anything you want by doing that.

The whole concept of purgatory cannot exist if you believe that we receive atonement through Jesus.

Mat 5:25-26 Has absolutely nothing to do with dying and going to a place to like purgatory. Jesus is telling us to make peace with our brothers so we do not fall in danger of the judgement. Sorry… no purgatory in those verses or any of the ones you pointed out.

Purgatory cannot exist if you believe the following:

Rom 5:8
But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

Rom 5:9
Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him. (NOT PURGATORY)

Rom 5:10
For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled,** we shall be saved by his life**. (NOT PURGATORY)

Rom 5:11
And not only [so], but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement. (NOT PURGATORY)

And my personal favorite:
Jhn 14:6
Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. (NOT PURGATORY)

Psa 18:2 The LORD [is] my rock, and my fortress, and my deliverer; my God, my strength, in whom I will trust; my buckler, and the horn of my salvation, [and] my high tower.

Psa 31:1 [To the chief Musician, A Psalm of David.]] In thee, O LORD, do I put my trust; let me never be ashamed: deliver me in thy righteousness.

Psa 31:6 I have hated them that regard lying vanities: but I trust in the LORD.

Psa 34:22 The LORD redeemeth the soul of his servants: and none of them that trust in him shall be desolate.

Psa 37:3 Trust in the LORD, and do good; [so] shalt thou dwell in the land, and verily thou shalt be fed.

Psa 37:5 Commit thy way unto the LORD; trust also in him; and he shall bring [it] to pass.

Psa 37:40 And the LORD shall help them, and deliver them: he shall deliver them from the wicked, and save them, because they trust in him.