Why do Protestants object to Purgatory?

[flameburns623]

Being Angelican, how do you reconcile following a religion that was founded by a King who broke away from the true Church and started HIS OWN CHURCH merely because he wanted to get a divorce ???

This thread does not exist for the purpose of discussing Anglican origins and if you wish to discuss this at length you will need to start a new thread.

The short answer is that Anglicans do not think that Henry VIII started ‘his own church’, whatever his motives.

 

[Mr.Ex_Nihilo]

Just to be clear, it seems to me self-evident from the Scriptures that a man’s spirit can most certainly be damaged by the sins they commit.

In fact, I’m fairly sure that Adam and Eve’s sins resulted in spiritual wounds which have been inherited from them to all other people who have ever lived, save Christ and his mother.

That these spiritual wounds brought on by the choices we make from within our own souls sometimes results in an unending spiritual death in hell should be well understood by all calling themselves Christian.

In fact, in inverse proportion, these spiritual wounds brought on by the choices Adam and Eve made from within their own souls is the exact reason why we all physically die in the first place.
Genesis 2:17:

…but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat of it you will surely die.

Job 17:1:

My spirit is broken, my days are cut short, the grave awaits me.

Psalm 31:5:

Into your hands I commit my spirit; redeem me, O LORD, the God of truth.

Psalm 34:18:

The LORD is close to the brokenhearted and saves those who are crushed in spirit.

Psalm 51:9-11:

Hide your face from my sins and blot out all my iniquity.

Create in me a pure heart, O God, and renew a steadfast spirit within me.

Do not cast me from your presence or take your Holy Spirit from me.

Psalm 143:7:

Answer me quickly, O LORD; my spirit fails. Do not hide your face from me or I will be like those who go down to the pit.

Proverbs 15:4:

The tongue that brings healing is a tree of life, but a deceitful tongue crushes the spirit.

Proverbs 16:18:

Pride goes before destruction, a haughty spirit before a fall.

Romans 5:12:

Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all men, because all sinned…

It is clear from the Scriptures that the soul who sins is the one who will die. But it is also explicit that the guilt of the sin falls on the person commiting the sin even if the damaging effects of their sins can be inheritted for generations to come.

It is even more explicit in Ezekiel 18:20 when the Scriptures say…

The soul who sins is the one who will die. The son will not share the guilt of the father, nor will the father share the guilt of the son. The righteousness of the righteous man will be credited to him, and the wickedness of the wicked will be charged against him.

How is the soul restored?

The answer to this is that we need to rid ourselves of all the offenses we have committed, and get a new heart and a new spirit.

But how do we obtain a new a new heart and a new spirit?

The answer, from the Christian perspective, is that the blood of the lamb restores our soul toward God. There is nothing else which can accomplish this. Nothing.

But if the soul has been wounded by sin, and if we are all sinners before God, and if these sinful self-inflicted wounds on our souls have not been healed before our physical death, then how is the soul healed after physical death if we are all sinners before God?

In other words, if no one dies spiritually pure (is even a little bit impure), then no one is going to heaven and everyone is going to hell.

It is Christ our redeemer, however, who restores our soul in both life and after our life ends. He guides us in paths of righteousness for his name’s sake. And if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, then we have fellowship with one another-- and the blood of Jesus, God’s Son, purifies us from all sin.

I don’t think I can make this any clearer.

 

[BrownR]

Interesting thread. I’m not sure if this link has been posted, but I think CA provides a more than adequate argument for the existence of purgatory. (One of many on this site.)

catholic.com/thisrock/2000/0010sbs.asp

Here’s a quote taken from the link:

Souls in hell will not grow close to God, and those in heaven cannot draw any nearer to him. If purgatory does not exist, prayers for the dead are useless.

I find the Protestant attack on the concept of purgatory to be facile at best with a strong dependence on the theological construct of sola scriptura (or should I say “verses scriptura”) which is even less supported by “scripture” than the idea of purgatory. In essence, we have strong evidence of prayers for the dead throughout the Bible (with or without the deuterocanonicals) as well as the strong concept of purgatory taught by the early Church fathers. We have multiple early Christian writings which speak clearly of prayers for the dead as a beneficial effort to help their continuing sanctification.

Therefore, I think Protestants have a hard time cut out for themselves. Not only do they need to prove that prayers for the dead didn’t exist as an early Church teaching (they did…), and that the Bible doesn’t mention implicitly or allude to this same concept (it does…), but they need to explain how exactly the Church got it wrong for so long. If people were praying for the benefit of the dead, how exactly were the dead benefiting? They certainly couldn’t benefit from Hell, and how could they benefit any more while in Heaven? Therefore, where exactly were these souls that were being prayed upon?

Here’s the best part though as far as I’m concerned. Martin Luther initially claimed in 1519 during the early Protestant Reformation that the existence of Purgatory was undeniable, yet by 1530 he had decided that it was, in fact, deniable. It took him 11 years to come to this conclusion.

I sometimes wonder what convinced Luther that 1500 years of Catholic Church teaching and tradition passed down from the earliest of Church fathers was so misguided and not the work of the Holy Spirit. What exactly gave him, and him alone the perspicaciousness to pick and choose which components of the Faith were inspired of God and which were not? Divine inspiration or arrogant presumption? And today we can see the fruits of his work, a divisive and heterogeneous Church with each denomination bickering among themselves and claiming to be privy to the “divine interpretation” of Truth.

In either case, I’ll leave the Protestants with this olive branch… If Luther, the progenitor of your “reformed theology”, could “flip-flop” on an issue such as Purgatory over an 11 year period of reflection, then the least you can do is give Catholics the benefit of a doubt where the teaching is concerned. After all, Luther’s behavior could be construed as constituting a tad bit of, shall we say, uncertainty on the issue.

God bless.

 

[mrs_abbott]

Please be careful how you present the Purgatory doctrine. Some non-Catholics will use it against you by stating it is a “free get-out-of-Hell” card not dissimilar to the get-out-of-jail free card on a Monopoly board.

I’ve heard that argument before. It’s only comforting to know that if you had every intention on confessing on Saturday afternoon and you’d get killed suddenly in a car crash or something before making restitution. That’s my argument for it.
Other than that, there’s no “free ticket” to Heaven. Even if we think we’re doing good, it’s hard to say if God will think the same when we die and are face to face with our Judgement Day.

 

[Mr.Ex_Nihilo]

Interesting thread. I’m not sure if this link has been posted, but I think CA provides a more than adequate argument for the existence of purgatory. (One of many on this site.)

catholic.com/thisrock/2000/0010sbs.asp

Here’s a quote taken from the link:

I find the Protestant attack on the concept of purgatory to be facile at best with a strong dependence on the theological construct of sola scriptura (or should I say “verses scriptura”) which is even less supported by “scripture” than the idea of purgatory. In essence, we have strong evidence of prayers for the dead throughout the Bible (with or without the deuterocanonicals) as well as the strong concept of purgatory taught by the early Church fathers. We have multiple early Christian writings which speak clearly of prayers for the dead as a beneficial effort to help their continuing sanctification.

Therefore, I think Protestants have a hard time cut out for themselves. Not only do they need to prove that prayers for the dead didn’t exist as an early Church teaching (they did…), and that the Bible doesn’t mention implicitly or allude to this same concept (it does…), but they need to explain how exactly the Church got it wrong for so long. If people were praying for the benefit of the dead, how exactly were the dead benefiting? They certainly couldn’t benefit from Hell, and how could they benefit any more while in Heaven? Therefore, where exactly were these souls that were being prayed upon?

Here’s the best part though as far as I’m concerned. Martin Luther initially claimed in 1519 during the early Protestant Reformation that the existence of Purgatory was undeniable, yet by 1530 he had decided that it was, in fact, deniable. It took him 11 years to come to this conclusion.

I sometimes wonder what convinced Luther that 1500 years of Catholic Church teaching and tradition passed down from the earliest of Church fathers was so misguided and not the work of the Holy Spirit. What exactly gave him, and him alone the perspicaciousness to pick and choose which components of the Faith were inspired of God and which were not? Divine inspiration or arrogant presumption? And today we can see the fruits of his work, a divisive and heterogeneous Church with each denomination bickering among themselves and claiming to be privy to the “divine interpretation” of Truth.

In either case, I’ll leave the Protestants with this olive branch… If Luther, the progenitor of your “reformed theology”, could “flip-flop” on an issue such as Purgatory over an 11 year period of reflection, then the least you can do is give Catholics the benefit of a doubt where the teaching is concerned. After all, Luther’s behavior could be construed as constituting a tad bit of, shall we say, uncertainty on the issue.

God bless.

Excellent post!

That was one of the links that actually openned my eyes to the truly Catholic concept of purgatory.

One might also note that there is a passage within the Christian Scriptures where Paul really does give a prayer for a person to take effect after they have perished.

May the Lord show mercy to the household of Onesiphorus, because he often refreshed me and was not ashamed of my chains. On the contrary, when he was in Rome, he searched hard for me until he found me. May the Lord grant that he will find mercy from the Lord on that day! You know very well in how many ways he helped me in Ephesus.

As with the verses from Maccabees which we are already familiar with, these verses refer to prayers that will help the deceased on Judgment Day. It is not certain that Onesiphorus, for whom Paul prayed, was dead at the time he spoke the prayer. But it is certain that Onesiphorus will have perished when that Day of Judgement comes-- and Paul’s prayer is for this future day.

In light of everything else that has been said so far, it seems to me futile to continue to argue that praying for those who have perished was not believed by the early church of which we are descended today.

 

[Mr.Ex_Nihilo]

One might also want to examine the archeological evidence in regards to this practice too.

For example, outside the Scriptures, the proof of the early use of prayers for the dead has been carried a step farther. Unless one is arguing that the Church fell into complete apostasy before this time, it is now impossible to doubt the genuineness of the copy (of the inscription on the tomb of Abercius of Hieropolis in Phrygia).

The 19th line of the inscription runs thus: Let every friend who observeth this pray for me, i.e. Abercius, who throughout speaks in the first person: he died in the latter part of the 2nd century.

The inscriptions in 3rd Century Roman catacombs bear similar witness to the practice, by the occurrence of such phrases as:

Mayst thou live among the saints;
May God refresh the soul of . . . ;
Peace be with them.

Among Church writers Tertullian is the first to mention prayers for the dead, and that not as a concession to natural sentiment, but as a duty: The widow who does not pray for her dead husband has as good as divorced him. This passage occurs in one of his later Montanistic writings, dating from the beginning of the 3rd century.

Subsequent writers similarly make incidental mention of the practice as prevalent, but not as unlawful or even disputed (until Arius challenged it towards the end of the 4th century).

The most famous instance is Saint Augustines prayer for his mother, Monica, at the end of the 9th book of his Confessions.

 

[AlegreFe]

…
…
Sins that are confessed are cleansed.

Sins that are not confessed are not cleansed.

And in order for us to know every single sin we have ever committed and confess them before God, we would have to have an infinite intellectual capacity equivalent to God himself.

Since we don’t have an infinite intellectual capacity equivalent to God himself, God acts on our behalf (just like he always does) and will cleanse these unconfessed yet easilly forgivable sins from us in purgatory.

Purgatory is not for those sins which we forget to confess. If we truly forget to confess something, I believe we are still forgiven for those sins. When I go to confession, I always try to remember to say, “I also want mercy and forgiveness for the sins that I cannot remember” and I know from that I am forgiven for all the sins that I did not remember to confess.

What Purgatory is, is for the temporal punishment due to sins which are already forgiven. If we deliberately “forget” to confess a mortal sin, than we are NOT forgiven for that sin AND on top of that we are committing another MORTAL sin which is a sacrilege. If we do not confess that sin and/or do not repent for that sacrilegus act, then Purgatory is not even an issue here; we go to hell if we do not repent in the last second of death. I can also say that ONLY GOD knows whether a person acutally repented from that sacrilegus act or not. NONE of us can say whether or not a soul is actually ready for God in Heaven. I cannot say that for myself or for anyone else. So I don’t see how anyone can say that they are “saved” and can go straight to heaven; you are being presumptuous about the state of your own soul and that in itself is a sin; and with that you (in general) need to do an examination of conscience.

Purgatory cleanses us from all “self-love” and from all temporal punishment due to sins and from veniel sins. And yes there is such thing as venial and mortal sin. We have to be cleansed before we are blessed with the Beatific Vision. The Book of Revelation is clear on that in saying that nothing unclean can enter into heaven. We need God’s grace, which of course comes from the Cross of Jesus Christ in order to live holy lives. We can’t always be perfect or clean. So we try our best with God’s Grace to live Holy Lives because we are all called to be Saints. But since no one but God is perfect we have to be cleansed by God’s purifying fires in Purgatory if we do not suffer here on earth. Only God will know how much we have suffered here and if that is sufficient to enter into His Kingdom.

Since we are members of the Body of Christ we all have to suffer to make up what is lacking in the sufferings of Christ for the sake of His body, the Church. Paul said that himself to the Colossians.

24 Now I rejoice in my sufferings for your sake,
and in my flesh I am filling up what is lacking in
the afflictions of Christ on behalf of his body,
which is the church Col 1:24

We have to do good works, we have to suffer on this earth, we have to live holy lives. Without God we cannot do those things. But with God’s grace we can. We all fall short because none of us are perfect.

I am so glad that there is a PURGATORY!!! Because without Purgatory we’d all be going to HELL.

I’m also glad that Jesus gave us HIMSELF to eat. That is the ULTIMATE in Grace giving sacrifices. I am to ABIDE in Jesus and the BEST way to do that is to eat His flesh and drink His blood just as He commanded us to do. His flesh is my nourishment to go live a Holy life just as I was “born again” to do when I was baptized.

I thank God for the Most Blessed Sacrament! I thank God for the Holy Eucharist which is Jesus Christ Himself.

Today was ALL SOULS’ Day. We pray for all those in Purgatory! May their souls, through the mercy of God, rest in peace. AMEN!

 

[AlegreFe]

Interesting thread. I’m not sure if this link has been posted, but I think CA provides a more than adequate argument for the existence of purgatory. (One of many on this site.)

catholic.com/thisrock/2000/0010sbs.asp

Thanks for that link. I like this quote from that webpage on CA;

If sin still clings to Christians (Heb 12:1), but there is no sin in
heaven (Rev. 21:27), there must be a purification that takes place
after one’s death and before one enters heaven. Even if it were “in
the blink of an eye,” this final stage of sanctification must take
place, so those who die in God’s favor may be cleansed if any
affection for sin remains in them.

Makes a lot of sense to me.

I sometimes wonder what convinced Luther that 1500 years of Catholic Church teaching and tradition passed down from the earliest of Church fathers was so misguided and not the work of the Holy Spirit. What exactly gave him, and him alone the perspicaciousness to pick and choose which components of the Faith were inspired of God and which were not? Divine inspiration or arrogant presumption? And today we can see the fruits of his work, a divisive and heterogeneous Church with each denomination bickering among themselves and claiming to be privy to the “divine interpretation” of Truth.

I say the same thing. “Arrogant presumption” gets my vote and we all know that is a sin. I pray for Luther’s soul if indeed he is in purgatory.

In either case, I’ll leave the Protestants with this olive branch… If Luther, the progenitor of your “reformed theology”, could “flip-flop” on an issue such as Purgatory over an 11 year period of reflection, then the least you can do is give Catholics the benefit of a doubt where the teaching is concerned. After all, Luther’s behavior could be construed as constituting a tad bit of, shall we say, uncertainty on the issue.

 

[Mr.Ex_Nihilo]

Purgatory is not for those sins which we forget to confess. If we truly forget to confess something, I believe we are still forgiven for those sins.

You’re right.

I was just trying to display an analogy for a starting point to understand this further.

It’s a lot more complicated than the two positions I noted above.

However, there are some sins that will never be forgiven. The contingency upon forgiveness is repentence from the sin. Whether this repentence happens in this life or in the purging to come after one’s life ends, only God can fathom completely and judge accurately.

He may reveal to us which saints are indeed in heaven. But he has not revealed to us those who have gone in the opposite direction. And our prayers certainly do aid those in purgatory to repent of the venial sins they never confessed and repented of in life.

AlegreFe:

When I go to confession, I always try to remember to say, “I also want mercy and forgiveness for the sins that I cannot remember” and I know from that I am forgiven for all the sins that I did not remember to confess.

Yes. I don’t doubt this. But the manifestation of forgiveness take time. You know as well as I do that forgiveness is dependent upon repentence.

AlegreFe:

What Purgatory is, is for the temporal punishment due to sins which are already forgiven.

But what about venial sins which are easilly forgivable?

I kind of explained this to Syele before…
Mr. Ex:

But you are effectively saying that physical death ends sin if the person is in Christ. And it doesn’t.

The effects of sin continue on well after we have physically died. Sometimes it can take generations for God to remove the effects of particularly strong sins for example.

Likewise, if the person has any sin whatsover, if their soul is in anyway corrupted before God when they die, then they cannot enter heaven specifically because of their sins, no matter how small these sins might be.

AlegreFe:

If we deliberately “forget” to confess a mortal sin, than we are NOT forgiven for that sin AND on top of that we are committing another MORTAL sin which is a sacrilege. If we do not confess that sin and/or do not repent for that sacrilegus act, then Purgatory is not even an issue here; we go to hell if we do not repent in the last second of death. I can also say that ONLY GOD knows whether a person acutally repented from that sacrilegus act or not. NONE of us can say whether or not a soul is actually ready for God in Heaven. I cannot say that for myself or for anyone else. So I don’t see how anyone can say that they are “saved” and can go straight to heaven; you are being presumptuous about the state of your own soul and that in itself is a sin; and with that you (in general) need to do an examination of conscience.

But I’m not talking about mortal sins. I’m talking about venial sins.

Likewise, you’re talking about the pronunciation of forgiveness whereas I’m talking about the manifestation to this forgiveness.

It is clear that we are forgiven instantly.

But the purging of the sin that we are forgiven of takes time-- it’s not an instant process. And if the purging was an instant process, then there would be no need for purgatory in the first place.

At least, that’s how I thought it worked according to Catholicism.

AlegreFe:

Purgatory cleanses us from all “self-love” and from all temporal punishment due to sins and from veniel sins. And yes there is such thing as venial and mortal sin. We have to be cleansed before we are blessed with the Beatific Vision. The Book of Revelation is clear on that in saying that nothing unclean can enter into heaven.

Yes. This is what I’m saying.

I’m not sure if we’re in disagreement on anything here to be honest.

AlegreFe:

We need God’s grace, which of course comes from the Cross of Jesus Christ in order to live holy lives. We can’t always be perfect or clean. So we try our best with God’s Grace to live Holy Lives because we are all called to be Saints. But since no one but God is perfect we have to be cleansed by God’s purifying fires in Purgatory if we do not suffer here on earth. Only God will know how much we have suffered here and if that is sufficient to enter into His Kingdom.

Amen brother.

Since I agree with you on all points from here on, I’ll just celebrate the communion of saints with you as we continue to pray for those in purgatory together.

 

[AlegreFe]

Yes. I don’t doubt this. But the manifestation of forgiveness take time. You know as well as I do that forgiveness is dependent upon repentence.

If we repent of our sins God forgives us instantly. It’s not the Forgiveness that takes time. The reason for purgatory is for the cleansing of our “self-love.” Purgatory is also for the temporal punishment due to sin. Forgiveness does not take time. We will end up there because of the restitution that we have to pay for our sins.

I’m sure you’ve heard of the example given about the kid who broke a window. The kid is playing ball and brakes a neighbor’s window. The neighbor forgives the boy right away. But the boy still has to pay for the window. It’s paying for the window that will take time for the boy (or his parents). It “hurts” the dad to pay for the window; “hurts” his “wallet.” LOL But you understand that it is the “repentance” which in the Latin root means to suffer a deeper pain, that will take time. That is why I mentioned in one of my posts that if we suffer here on earth (and offer it up to the Lord as penance for our sins) God will know whether we suffered enough here on earth. If not, then we will be in Purgatory “until the last penny is paid.”

25 Settle with your opponent quickly while on the way
to court with him. Otherwise your opponent will hand you over
to the judge, and the judge will hand you over to the guard,
and you will be thrown into prison.
26 Amen, I say to you, you will not be released until
you have paid the last penny. Mat 5:25-26

It is very important that if/when we suffer we should unite that suffering with the suffering of Jesus Christ. Our suffering is redemptive. We must “offer up” our sufferings to God as penance for our sins. That would be at least PART of our Purgatory here on earth. Our Priesthood allows us to offer up our sacrifices and our sufferings. We are to give everything to God, our joys and our sufferings.

But the purging of the sin that we are forgiven of takes time-- it’s not an instant process. And if the purging was an instant process, then there would be no need for purgatory in the first place.

Yes it takes time, but you have to understand that it is not the FORGIVENESS that takes time. And of course we are only forgiven if we also forgive others as it says in “The Our Father” prayer.

 

[AlegreFe]

Amen brother.

LoL thanks for the Amen, but I would be considered a “sister.” My name is on my siggy. But I’m sure you didn’t see it. Look on the top right corner of my picture siggy.

 

[Mr.Ex_Nihilo]

If we repent of our sins God forgives us instantly. It’s not the Forgiveness that takes time. The reason for purgatory is for the cleansing of our “self-love.” Purgatory is also for the temporal punishment due to sin. Forgiveness does not take time. We will end up there because of the restitution that we have to pay for our sins.

I dunno…

Take a good look at a passage which many fellow Catholics use to explain the concept of purgatory…

Then Peter came to Jesus and asked, “Lord, how many times shall I forgive my brother when he sins against me? Up to seven times?”

Jesus answered, "I tell you, not seven times, but seventy-seven times.

"Therefore, the kingdom of heaven is like a king who wanted to settle accounts with his servants. As he began the settlement, a man who owed him ten thousand talents was brought to him. Since he was not able to pay, the master ordered that he and his wife and his children and all that he had be sold to repay the debt.

"The servant fell on his knees before him. ‘Be patient with me,’ he begged, ‘and I will pay back everything.’ The servant’s master took pity on him, canceled the debt and let him go.

"But when that servant went out, he found one of his fellow servants who owed him a hundred denarii. He grabbed him and began to choke him. ‘Pay back what you owe me!’ he demanded.

"His fellow servant fell to his knees and begged him, ‘Be patient with me, and I will pay you back.’

"But he refused. Instead, he went off and had the man thrown into prison until he could pay the debt. When the other servants saw what had happened, they were greatly distressed and went and told their master everything that had happened.

"Then the master called the servant in. ‘You wicked servant,’ he said, ‘I canceled all that debt of yours because you begged me to. Shouldn’t you have had mercy on your fellow servant just as I had on you?’ In anger his master turned him over to the jailers to be tortured, until he should pay back all he owed.

“This is how my heavenly Father will treat each of you unless you forgive your brother from your heart.”

It seems to me that the purging of sin also included the witholding of complete forgiveness until all debts were settled.

Maybe I’ve misundestood something here, so I’m willing to listen and understand this better. But I honeslty don’t think I’m misunderstood anything here to be fair.

AlegreFe:

I’m sure you’ve heard of the example given about the kid who broke a window. The kid is playing ball and brakes a neighbor’s window. The neighbor forgives the boy right away. But the boy still has to pay for the window. It’s paying for the window that will take time for the boy (or his parents). It “hurts” the dad to pay for the window; “hurts” his “wallet.” LOL But you understand that it is the “repentance” which in the Latin root means to suffer a deeper pain, that will take time.

Yes. And until that deeper pain is fully experienced then forgiveness is not complete.

How can forgiveness be complete without repentance?
Isaiah 30:15:

This is what the Sovereign LORD, the Holy One of Israel, says: "In repentance and rest is your salvation, in quietness and trust is your strength, but you would have none of it.

and again…

“The Redeemer will come to Zion, to those in Jacob who repent of their sins,” declares the LORD.

and again…
Ezekiel 18:32:

For I take no pleasure in the death of anyone, declares the Sovereign LORD. Repent and live!

continue…

 

[Mr.Ex_Nihilo]

…continued

AlegreFe:

That is why I mentioned in one of my posts that if we suffer here on earth (and offer it up to the Lord as penance for our sins) God will know whether we suffered enough here on earth. If not, then we will be in Purgatory “until the last penny is paid.”

I agree with you completely about offering our suffering to the Lord. But, even still, this should still lead to repentence-- either in this life or in the life to come.

25 Settle with your opponent quickly while on the way
to court with him. Otherwise your opponent will hand you over
to the judge, and the judge will hand you over to the guard,
and you will be thrown into prison.
26 Amen, I say to you, you will not be released until
you have paid the last penny. Mat 5:25-26

Yes. And look at the passage just before one you quoted above…

Therefore, if you are offering your gift at the altar and there remember that your brother has something against you, leave your gift there in front of the altar. First go and be reconciled to your brother; then come and offer your gift.

It is true they we will not be released until they have paid the last penny.

But there is also no forgiveness without repentence first-- specifically reconciliation in this passage mentioned above.
Acts 3:18:

Repent, then, and turn to God, so that your sins may be wiped out, that times of refreshing may come from the Lord…

And again…
Acts 5:31:

God exalted him to his own right hand as Prince and Savior that he might give repentance and forgiveness of sins to Israel.

And again…
Acts 17:30:

In the past God overlooked such ignorance, but now he commands all people everywhere to repent.

In purgatory, as in life, Godly sorrow brings repentance that leads to salvation and leaves no regret. In purgatory, as in life, he is patient with us, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.

Furthermore, in purgatory his patient love will reveal our inner beings with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each of our works. If what we have built survives, we will receive his reward. If it is burned up, we will suffer loss; we himself will be saved, but only as one escaping through the flames.

Whoever does not love does not know God, because God is love.

But our God is a consuming fire too.

continued…

 

[Mr.Ex_Nihilo]

…continued.

Look at Numbers 15:22-31 as far as the priests offerings for unintentional sins are concerned.

Does not one and the same law apply to everyone who sins unintentionally, whether he is a native-born Israelite or an alien?

Is this not a good illustration of the work that Christ does in purgatory for the fogiveness of our unintentional and unrepented sins for the whole world?

But if we look to the passage of 1 Corinthians 3:12-17, we see that the Greek phrase for “suffer loss” (zemiothesetai) means “to be punished.” This means the man undergoes an expiation of temporal punishment for his bad works (sins) but is still saved.

But the phrase “but only” or “yet so” (in Greek, houtos) means “in the same manner.” This means that the man must pass through the fire in the same way that his bad works passed through the fire, in order to expiate himself of the things that led him to produce the bad works in the first place.

If this demonstrates that there is punishment after death, then it also demonstrates that this punishment is followed by salvation. And in between punishment and salvation lays the forgiveness. So if one is going to quote this passage in regards to purgatory, then this passage seems to indicate that there is punishment, then forgiveness, which is then followed by salvation.

Forgiveness does not come first. Punishment does.

Then comes forgiveness. Then comes salvation.

At least, that’s how I understood it.

PS. Please note, I’m not an expert on this, so I admit I could be in error on this. I’m just not saying why one would say that forgiveness comes first when it seems obvious that they have not been fully forgiven for their sins since they still have to undergo this cleansing before entering heaven.

To me, totally forgiven means totally cleansed. And until they are fully cleansed, they are not fully forgiven as far as I can tell.

 

[Mr.Ex_Nihilo]

LoL thanks for the Amen, but I would be considered a “sister.” My name is on my siggy. But I’m sure you didn’t see it. Look on the top right corner of my picture siggy.

 

[AlegreFe]

Forgiveness does not come first. Punishment does.

Then comes forgiveness. Then comes salvation.

At least, that’s how I understood it.

PS. Please note, I’m not an expert on this, so I admit I could be in error on this. I’m just not saying why one would say that forgiveness comes first when it seems obvious that they have not been fully forgiven for their sins since they still have to undergo this cleansing before entering heaven.

To me, totally forgiven means totally cleansed. And until they are fully cleansed, they are not fully forgiven as far as I can tell.

If we repent of our sins, which means to suffer as paying with a penance (hope that made sense to you), then we are forgiven. I agree with you here. I think we’re on the same page. But if we go to confession and confess our sins, God forgives us for those sins. But we still have to do penance for them, which means to repent; same difference. I think this is where we will start to differ but end up in the same place; meaning I agree with you in the end. God forgives us but we don’t get the “prize” right away. So the “pit-stop” of purgatory comes in. This is how purgatory would make sense otherwise if we are not forgiven until AFTER we do some sort of penance then we would just go to hell. What would be the point of purgatory then? We go there only if we are forgiven otherwise we go to hell. Do you see what I’m saying here? We have to repent, yes. But if God does not forgive until we “fully repent” then that would mean that we are not yet forgiven which would mean we would go to hell. No one here on earth can “Fully Repent” all on our own. We would have to actually be crucified and die on the cross for that. But Jesus already did that for us. We “repent” as God sees fit for each one of us and whatever is “left over” for “continued cleansing” after we die would be done in purgatory.

Maybe an apologist in the Apologist’s forum can make it clearer to you and more understandable. We do agree with most of what we understand about purgatory though.

 

[Mr.Ex_Nihilo]

If we repent of our sins, which means to suffer as paying with a penance (hope that made sense to you), then we are forgiven. I agree with you here. I think we’re on the same page.

I guess how I saw it what that when the Spirit convicts our conscience, this brings us to the confession and repentance of sins. In other words, the Spirit is at work from the beginning as he move within our souls to brings us toward reconciliation. And if the Spirit is not at work at least in the bare minimum of our conscience upon death, then their is no forgiveness even in purgatory.

AlegreFe:

But if we go to confession and confess our sins, God forgives us for those sins. But we still have to do penance for them, which means to repent; same difference.

But isn’t that what’s going on in purgatory?

Purgatory (Lat., “purgare”, to make clean, to purify) in accordance with Catholic teaching is a place or condition of temporal punishment for those who, departing this life in God’s grace, are, not entirely free from venial faults, or have not fully paid the satisfaction due to their transgressions.

For example, someone may repent in an improper way, repenting more out of fear than love. So, in this sense, one who has imperfectly repented out of fear may be purged in purgatory as their repentance is transformed into one of love rather than one of fear. In this sense, this fearful contrition is transformed into holy love.
1 John 4:18:

There is no fear in love. But perfect love drives out fear, because fear has to do with punishment. The one who fears is not made perfect in love.

AlegreFe:

I think this is where we will start to differ but end up in the same place; meaning I agree with you in the end. God forgives us but we don’t get the “prize” right away. So the “pit-stop” of purgatory comes in. This is how purgatory would make sense otherwise if we are not forgiven until AFTER we do some sort of penance then we would just go to hell.

But the ‘process’ of being forgiven began before the person died. And since the person perished before forgiveness could be manifested completely, the Lord completes the process after death in purgatory.

continued…

 

[Mr.Ex_Nihilo]

…continued.

AlegreFe:

What would be the point of purgatory then?

It seems the argument you’re using is actually kind of an inversed argument similar to the protestant’s objection to purgatory. In other words, most protestants seem to object to purgatory for the exact same reason you’re saying: since forgiveness has already been pronounced, then why go through the suffering of purgatory.

The answer in my opinion is simple: because, just as in life, the forgiveness of their sins has not been completed unless all sin has been removed from the soul of the sinner. What has started of as contrition before death will be transformed into joy after death.

Again, I could be wrong. Maybe I’m misunderstanding something here.

AlegreFe:

We go there only if we are forgiven otherwise we go to hell. Do you see what I’m saying here? We have to repent, yes. But if God does not forgive until we “fully repent” then that would mean that we are not yet forgiven which would mean we would go to hell.

Because it’s a process and it’s not instantaneous.

The process of being forgiven has already begun before death. It’s the manifestation of this forgiveness within the soul of the individual which has not been completed yet-- therefore the purging of sin from their soul is required as the Lord purges the impurities from their spirit as a refiners fire refines the impurities from a nugget of gold for example.

AlegreFe:

No one here on earth can “Fully Repent” all on our own.

Exactly. But if the Spirit of the Lord is present within the individual’s soul, then the Lord is at work within them and measuring the sincereity of their heart. Whatever contrition was present, even if this contrition is imperfect, will be transformed into joy in purgatory.

AlegreFe:

We would have to actually be crucified and die on the cross for that. But Jesus already did that for us.

But that’s not what I’m saying. Consider the following article.

Bishop Morlino said that perfect contrition would be a very difficult thing to accomplish. It would involve a person being able turn away from all desire for sin. If a soul were able to confess sin to that extent, with complete contrition and a complete loss of desire for sin, then that soul would go directly to heaven without stopping in Purgatory.

Practically speaking, only the great saints could probably manage such a degree of contrition. But the reality is that the soul would then avoid Purgatory entirely. Purgatory is for cleansing unconfessed sins and sins imperfectly confessed during life. It seems to me that if you put forward the case that all sin bears purgatorial suffering, even if perfectly confessed, you are close to saying that Christ’s redemption was not quite complete.

AlegreFe:

We “repent” as God sees fit for each one of us and whatever is “left over” for “continued cleansing” after we die would be done in purgatory.

Yes. That’s how I think it works.

AlegreFe:

Maybe an apologist in the Apologist’s forum can make it clearer to you and more understandable. We do agree with most of what we understand about purgatory though.

Hmmm…it definitely is something that I’ll have to look further into. Perhaps I am misunderstanding something here.

 

[teresas1979]

The defence i always hear for Purgatory is the one about the spilt orange juice (see www.catholic.com) but my understanding has always been (even when Catholic) that Christ’s death was sufficient to clean up the spilt orange juice, not just forgive us for it so again, why purgatory - it doesn’t make sense…

 

[MariaG]

This is GREAT reading:

angelfire.com/ms/seanie/desalespurgatory.html written by Saint Francis de Sales (1567-1622), Bishop and Doctor of the Church.

Nice article! I put it in my favorites so I could read it at my leisure as well as refer back to it easily.

Thanks for the link:thumbsup:

God Bless,
Maria