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jmcrae
Guest
Well, I guess we know where we stand with them, then, don’t we?
Moving right along …
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Moving right along …
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Mr.Ex_Nihilo
Guest
Same here.
No. The Scriptures do not say “all sin right then and there at that exact moment in time.”
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Syele
Guest
I’m not arguing that you make Christ to be dying over and over and over again.
My argument is that His sacrifice was sufficient to for ALL sin. I also explained my belief reguarding the flesh and it’s death. Between the two, I see no reason whatsoever to believe that we still have any need of purging after death.
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Mr.Ex_Nihilo
Guest
We as Catholics have never denied that his sacrifice was sufficient to for all sin either-- not even with purgatory. The basic idea is that the soul is still alive after the body has perished. As such, the soul needs to be purged from sin with the blood of the lamb even after physical death.
You said before in post 74 the following…
I think it’s already been brought up that if this is true, then why would God even bother allowing people to live for up to 120 years and struggle with sin their entire lives?
Furthermore, it’s not about limiting God. It’s about human beings being limited. It’s not because God is limited that purgatory exists. It’s because we are limited that God, by his grace, continues to purge our souls from sin after physical death.
continued…
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Mr.Ex_Nihilo
Guest
…continued.
Syle:
Syele:
Syele:
The problem with what your advancing is the basic belief that a person’s spirit is incorruptable. And a person’s spirit is not incorruptable. A person’s spirit is capable of being wounded, and even dying a spiritual death as Ezekiel 18:4 points out…
From a Catholic perspective, the soul that is dead will still live forever-- because the soul is eternal. But eternal =/= incorruptable. And, at least in the case of hell, the soul dies an eternal death as it falls further and further into corruption even after death.
In other words, the soul who sins is indeed the one who will die. But, like a black hole, this death lasts forever in hell and will simply never end.
When we come to purgatory, however, we still see that the soul would be have been dying without the blood of the lamb to purify and heal its wounds. Unlike hell, however, Christ is active in their spirits and bringing about reconcilliation by healing their souls.
The difference between hell and purgatory is that in hell their souls are completely cut off from God whereas in purgatory their souls are not cut off from God. The soul that is completely cut off from God after physical death will die an eternal death, falling further and further into corruption, whereas the soul that is not completely cut off from God after physical death will be healed by the blood of the lamb, be made more and more incoruptable, and eventually enter into the beautific vision with God after it has been healed.
continued…
Syle:
Do you mean post 93 where you said the following…
…and this…
If so, this seems reminiscent of the gnostisism that the early apostles had to combat against during the apostolic age.
The problem with what your advancing is the basic belief that a person’s spirit is incorruptable. And a person’s spirit is not incorruptable. A person’s spirit is capable of being wounded, and even dying a spiritual death as Ezekiel 18:4 points out…
In other words, if mortal means death-dealing, that which is immortal can most certainly become mortal. The inverse is true too-- because that which is mortal can be made immortal.
From a Catholic perspective, the soul that is dead will still live forever-- because the soul is eternal. But eternal =/= incorruptable. And, at least in the case of hell, the soul dies an eternal death as it falls further and further into corruption even after death.
In other words, the soul who sins is indeed the one who will die. But, like a black hole, this death lasts forever in hell and will simply never end.
When we come to purgatory, however, we still see that the soul would be have been dying without the blood of the lamb to purify and heal its wounds. Unlike hell, however, Christ is active in their spirits and bringing about reconcilliation by healing their souls.
The difference between hell and purgatory is that in hell their souls are completely cut off from God whereas in purgatory their souls are not cut off from God. The soul that is completely cut off from God after physical death will die an eternal death, falling further and further into corruption, whereas the soul that is not completely cut off from God after physical death will be healed by the blood of the lamb, be made more and more incoruptable, and eventually enter into the beautific vision with God after it has been healed.
continued…
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Mr.Ex_Nihilo
Guest
continued…
It is generally agreed that God created the devil perfect in glory-- and yet he too is was pure spirit that did indeed corrupt his own essence.
So to say that the spirit cannot be corrupted, first of all, ignores the fact that the adversary himself (who was a pure spirit) did indeed become corrupt. In fact, all the angels that joined the adversary and rebelled against God (who were also pure spirits) likewise did the same thing-- effectively placing the devil and his angels in a hellish state of eternal yet unending death as their spirits fell more and more into immortal corruption.
The gnostic heretics seemed to share a similar view as yours regarding the distinction between flesh and spirit. I know you’re not using their thoughts as an argument against the divinity of Christ-- I know you believe as we do that Jesus is truly the Son of God.
But, to the gnostics, only the spirit was pure. Consequently, as a side effect of this belief, the gnostics strove to rise above “matter” and didn’t actually care about personal ethics. In their minds, their pure spirits could not be tainted by “earthly” sin. Thus, they could effectively act anyway they wanted to without consequence.
The traditionally protestant view of life, although it rejects the gnostic heresies of dualism in life, does seem to fall within a more gnostic understanding regarding the soul in the after-life. In other words, the protestant view is basically saying that any sin left within the soul after death means nothing simply because their soul is inccoruptable.
In short, it is believed that since the spirit is purified in Christ in life, it cannot possess sin in the after-life. But spirits can be corrupted. In fact, the Scriptures are clear on this. So I am unsure if anyone can argue against God purifying people’s spirits in purgatory unless they can effectively argue that these spirits are totally within sin at the point of physical death in the first place.
Clearly, if sin is present, spirits are not automatically purified in death-- no more so than they are automatically purified in life. It is a process that, although in the end will totally cleanse the saved from sin, will still nonetheless take time to accomplish.
That’s purgatory.
It is generally agreed that God created the devil perfect in glory-- and yet he too is was pure spirit that did indeed corrupt his own essence.
So to say that the spirit cannot be corrupted, first of all, ignores the fact that the adversary himself (who was a pure spirit) did indeed become corrupt. In fact, all the angels that joined the adversary and rebelled against God (who were also pure spirits) likewise did the same thing-- effectively placing the devil and his angels in a hellish state of eternal yet unending death as their spirits fell more and more into immortal corruption.
The gnostic heretics seemed to share a similar view as yours regarding the distinction between flesh and spirit. I know you’re not using their thoughts as an argument against the divinity of Christ-- I know you believe as we do that Jesus is truly the Son of God.
But, to the gnostics, only the spirit was pure. Consequently, as a side effect of this belief, the gnostics strove to rise above “matter” and didn’t actually care about personal ethics. In their minds, their pure spirits could not be tainted by “earthly” sin. Thus, they could effectively act anyway they wanted to without consequence.
The traditionally protestant view of life, although it rejects the gnostic heresies of dualism in life, does seem to fall within a more gnostic understanding regarding the soul in the after-life. In other words, the protestant view is basically saying that any sin left within the soul after death means nothing simply because their soul is inccoruptable.
In short, it is believed that since the spirit is purified in Christ in life, it cannot possess sin in the after-life. But spirits can be corrupted. In fact, the Scriptures are clear on this. So I am unsure if anyone can argue against God purifying people’s spirits in purgatory unless they can effectively argue that these spirits are totally within sin at the point of physical death in the first place.
Clearly, if sin is present, spirits are not automatically purified in death-- no more so than they are automatically purified in life. It is a process that, although in the end will totally cleanse the saved from sin, will still nonetheless take time to accomplish.
That’s purgatory.
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Syele
Guest
There are earthly conscequences for earthly sin. If I commit murder, for example, I will have caused harm to the family of the murdered one as well and that person. I will spiritually seperate myself from God so that no one will see God through my actions and I will not be as close to God as before- making it more difficult to follow him. As a Christian, my spirit will be grieved. I am also subject to other earthly consequences reguarding jail etc.
Christians CANNOT act without consequence just because they have both fleshly desires and spiritual deisres.
I’m not saying it can’t be corrupted. I’m saying it is seperate from the flesh and that when we are saved the spirit and not the Body is saved. And the spirit is saved from all sin while it is saved. Before the spirit is saved it is corrupt. I also believe it’s possible to lose salvation… if you do that, your spirit would again be corrupt. But when you are saved, your spirit is saved saved completely.
No, The soul can be corrupt, but if it is corrupt at the time of death you go to hell. Sins committed by a saved person, that are of the flesh and not of the soul, are punished by earthly seperations from God, human consequences, and by death of the body. A corrupt soul is not a saved soul.
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jim1130
Guest
This is GREAT reading:
angelfire.com/ms/seanie/desalespurgatory.html written by Saint Francis de Sales (1567-1622), Bishop and Doctor of the Church.
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Mr.Ex_Nihilo
Guest
Yes. And there are also spiritual consequences for earthly sin too.
If I commit murder, for example, I will have also caused harm to the very God that created the murdered person in his image too.
We don’t just sin against people when we sin. We also sin before God and spiritually separate ourselves from him when doing so.
In other words, sinning against people indirectly = sinning against God.
But when we sin against people we also cause God to look away from the sin we have commited against him. Therefore God will not look upon my actions specifically because I have sinned against people. Therefore, by my actions, I will not be as close to God as before likewise making it more difficult to follow him.
As a Christian, our spirits are more than merely grieved. Our spirits are separated in some way from God. Therefore we are also subject to other spiritual consequences reguarding pergatory, hell, etc.
I agree.
But we as Catholics also stress that Christians CANNOT enter into heaven without consequence just because they have physically died either.
But you are effectively saying that physical death ends sin if the person is in Christ. And it doesn’t.
The effects of sin continue on well after we have physically died. Sometimes it can take generations for God to remove the effects of particularly strong sins for example.
Likewise, if the person has any sin whatsover, if their soul is in anyway corrupted before God when they die, then they cannot enter heaven specifically because of their sins, no matter how small these sins might be.
But this doesn’t make sense. In the end, even our corrupt bodies will be made incorruptable by God’s grace. And the spirit which has not been saved will continue to fall further into the corruption of hell. So even the sinful flesh will be transformed by God’s grace.
But that’s exactly what Catholicism says too. If you are saved, you are saved completely. The only difference between your view and ours is that, in Catholicism, it takes time for salvation to be completed whereas you believe this is instantaenous on the point of physical death.
Yet I see nothing within the Scriptures which indicates this kind instantaneous transformation-- except for the transformation in the ‘twinkling of an eye’ on the day of Judgement.
Then, accoridng to protestantism, all souls go to hell upon physical death because everyone is a sinner (or has sin) except Jesus himself.
Sins of the flesh are sins of the soul Syele.
Don’t you see that nothing that happens to a man from the outside can make his soul corrupt?
It’s only what comes out of a man’s soul that makes his soul corrupt.
F
flameburns623
Guest
Two words of warning.
First: the Article cited in the Anglican Articles of Religion specifies “the Romish doctrine”. This has often been interpreted to imply that there may be a “Christian doctrine” of the same, fully acceptable to the Word of God. A closer examination of the historical issues at stake suggests that the “Romish doctrines” being criticised fall more in line with Tetzel’s misapplication of Catholic teaching than with official RCC teaching even in the 16th century.
Secondly: While I cannot speak on behalf of the the Methodists this is my understanding of the Articles of Religion of the Episcopal communion. The Articles of Religion are not absolutely binding upon the faithful but were the standard to which Episcopal clergy ascribed allegiance during a specific period of Anglican history. More’s the pity, despite the sometimes-loaded language of the Articles: they could serve as a hedge and a corrective against the theological drift of The Episcopal Church (formerly known as PECUSA or as ECUSA) and other English-speaking Anglican communions.
Obviously I have issues with Purgatory and doctrines surrounding the concept; however not all Anglicans do. My Methodist great-aunt apparently believed in something akin to Purgatory as well: after the deaths of other family members she was known to go to her Methodist church to make some sort of special prayers on behalf of their departed souls. Perhaps someone more familiar with the history of Methodism can clarify?
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wcknight
Guest
All this speculation, theorizing and double talk and what it all boils down to is the basic fact that Catholics accept BOTH the Bible (with ALL of it’s orginal books as specified in early Chruch councils) and sacred traditions. Purgatory has been taught almost from day one and confirmed as being a true teaching by various saints, such as St. Bernadette at Lourdes and the children at Fatima, just to mention a few.
When you remove all traces of a concept from sacred text and then claim that the only thing you will believe is what is in the remaining text, of course the concept removed will necessarily be excluded from your theology. That in a nutshell is Protestanism.
However the reality of the concept remains intact, merely taking it out of your Bibles does not make it go away. Every one of us will find out for certain whether or not Purgatory exists, and unless you lead a nearly perfect existence, or can avoid Purgatory with prayer, confession or some other means (aka indulgences which were coincidentally also removed in the 1500s), you will have to spend a bit of ‘time’ in Purgatory. Sorry, wishing it away does NOT make it disappear.
The sad truth about Protestants and Purgatory is that much pain and suffering can be easily avoided. So although Christ’s sacrifice saved us from eternal damanation, it will be our own ignorance and pride that sends us to Purgatory, and maybe keeps there longer than is minimally necessary. Sorry to say, Protestants will learn the hard way that there are no free rides, most especially out of Purgatory.
We are all held accountable for all our actions here on earth. That is pure common sense (as Mother Angelica likes to say on EWTN). Pain and suffering are the same coin that pays for our misdeeds during our lifetime. Our Lady tells us that most folks end up going to Purgatory first, and the saints tells us it is no picnic in Purgatory. So IF we can avoid this altogether, why not do everything in your power to do so.
BUT if you don’t believe it in the first place, you will almost certainly end up there no matter what. Not believing in Purgatory is no excuse. But knowing just a few things on how to avoid Purgatory can get you into Heaven without any pain or misery.
.
When you remove all traces of a concept from sacred text and then claim that the only thing you will believe is what is in the remaining text, of course the concept removed will necessarily be excluded from your theology. That in a nutshell is Protestanism.
However the reality of the concept remains intact, merely taking it out of your Bibles does not make it go away. Every one of us will find out for certain whether or not Purgatory exists, and unless you lead a nearly perfect existence, or can avoid Purgatory with prayer, confession or some other means (aka indulgences which were coincidentally also removed in the 1500s), you will have to spend a bit of ‘time’ in Purgatory. Sorry, wishing it away does NOT make it disappear.
The sad truth about Protestants and Purgatory is that much pain and suffering can be easily avoided. So although Christ’s sacrifice saved us from eternal damanation, it will be our own ignorance and pride that sends us to Purgatory, and maybe keeps there longer than is minimally necessary. Sorry to say, Protestants will learn the hard way that there are no free rides, most especially out of Purgatory.
We are all held accountable for all our actions here on earth. That is pure common sense (as Mother Angelica likes to say on EWTN). Pain and suffering are the same coin that pays for our misdeeds during our lifetime. Our Lady tells us that most folks end up going to Purgatory first, and the saints tells us it is no picnic in Purgatory. So IF we can avoid this altogether, why not do everything in your power to do so.
BUT if you don’t believe it in the first place, you will almost certainly end up there no matter what. Not believing in Purgatory is no excuse. But knowing just a few things on how to avoid Purgatory can get you into Heaven without any pain or misery.
.
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mrs_abbott
Guest
Sorry if this has been said already but I didn’t want to read through 128 posts to find out. 
Is purgatory referenced in the Bible or Catechism anywhere? I’m more interested in the Bible reference but am just curious if it’s mentioned in the Catechism too.
Is purgatory referenced in the Bible or Catechism anywhere? I’m more interested in the Bible reference but am just curious if it’s mentioned in the Catechism too.
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wcknight
Guest
Being Angelican, how do you reconcile following a religion that was founded by a King who broke away from the true Church and started HIS OWN CHURCH merely because he wanted to get a divorce ???
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jim1130
Guest
You will not find the word “Purgatory,” per se, but I refer you to The Catholic Controversy, written by St. Frances de Sales (Bishop and Doctor of the Church), 1567-1622, “The Doctrine of Purgatory.”Sorry if this has been said already but I didn’t want to read through 128 posts to find out.
Is purgatory referenced in the Bible or Catechism anywhere? I’m more interested in the Bible reference but am just curious if it’s mentioned in the Catechism too.
Multiple books, chapters, and verses are provided, but this one may be of interest: 1st Corinthians ( iii. 13, 14, 15): The day of the Lord shall declare (every man’s work), because it shall be revealed by fire, and the fire shall try every man’s work, of what sort it is. If any man’s work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. If any man’s work burn, he shall suffer loss: but he hims&shall be saved, vet so as by fire.
Here is the entire site: angelfire.com/ms/seanie/desalespurgatory.html
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mrs_abbott
Guest
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jim1130
Guest
It is mentioned in the Catechism.Thanks!
So it’s not mentioned in the Catechism?
CCC - 1031, 1472, 1475 & 1498: scborromeo.org/ccc/ccc_toc.htm
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mrs_abbott
Guest
Thanks for showing that to me. I’m a little ignorant when it comes to the Catechism.
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jim1130
Guest
I’ve tried reading it from cover-to-cover as well as “Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma” by Ludwig Ott. I use them as reference books.Thanks for showing that to me. I’m a little ignorant when it comes to the Catechism.
I am not someone who can commit something easily to memory so I have to always research before I speak.
It is interesting to note that the Purgatory argument has gone on since the Reformation, with the non-Catholics of today lobbing the same arguments as the Reformers. “The Catholic Controversy” on Purgatory is a good read.
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mrs_abbott
Guest
I will admit that purgatory is never really something I questioned my belief in. If nothing else, maintaining the belief is comforting to know that there’s a chance that you can get into Heaven if you would happen to die a sudden death without making restitution for your sins.
You’d have the option of purgatory for that.
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jim1130
Guest
Please be careful how you present the Purgatory doctrine. Some non-Catholics will use it against you by stating it is a “free get-out-of-Hell” card not dissimilar to the get-out-of-jail free card on a Monopoly board.I will admit that purgatory is never really something I questioned my belief in. If nothing else, maintaining the belief is comforting to know that there’s a chance that you can get into Heaven if you would happen to die a sudden death without making restitution for your sins.
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