Why do Protestants object to Purgatory?

[jim1130]

"Jim1130:

For flameburns, is this all another pitch for “faith is all you need”?

Faith alone is indeed all that saves. Nonetheless the kind of faith that saves is never alone. It motivates one to good deeds.

James 2 devotes quite a few verses to show that “faith alone” is NOT all that you need so you are on the right track when you say “faith is never alone.” After all. St. Paul said that love is greater than faith and he also said that we could lose our salvation if we do not persevere.

Jim1130:

Baptism washes away our original sin, but, given our free will, not our inclination to sin.

flameburns:

Baptism, even in RCC theology, also washes away ‘actual sins’. What you are calling our ‘inclination to sin’ is that part of us that is dead already in Christ, that part which is killing us every day, that part of us that will be buried with us when we die.

Our inclination to sin is human nature. I do not know about you, but even with love and faith I am still imperfect and sin. The Sacrament of Reconciliation is the gift Christ gave to us (John 20 immediately comes to mind) to make us right and keep us right with him.

CCC 1425 "You were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God."9 One must appreciate the magnitude of the gift God has given us in the sacraments of Christian initiation in order to grasp the degree to which sin is excluded for him who has "put on Christ."10 But the apostle John also says: "If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us."11 And the Lord himself taught us to pray: "Forgive us our trespasses,"12 linking our forgiveness of one another’s offenses to the forgiveness of our sins that God will grant us.

CCC 1426 Conversion to Christ, the new birth of Baptism, the gift of the Holy Spirit and the Body and Blood of Christ received as food have made us “holy and without blemish,” just as the Church herself, the Bride of Christ, is "holy and without blemish."13 **Nevertheless the new life received in Christian initiation has not abolished the frailty and weakness of human nature, nor the inclination to sin that tradition calls concupiscence, which remains in the baptized such that with the help of the grace of Christ they may prove themselves in the struggle of Christian life.14 This is the struggle of conversion directed toward holiness and eternal life to which the Lord never ceases to call us.**15
9 1 Cor 6:11.
10 Gal 3:27.
11 1 Jn 1:8.
12 Cf. Lk 11:4; Mt 6:12.
13 Eph 1:4; 5:27.
14 Cf. Council of Trent (1546): DS 1515.
15 Cf. Council of Trent (1547): DS 1545; LG 40.
flameburns:

‘Free will’ by the way is not a Biblical idea, not a Christian notion. It was smuggled into Christianity by way of the pagan philosophy of Plato.

God did not endow us with free will? We have no say in the matter? Some are predestined for salvation and others are not? Are you troubled by the terminology?

 

[IHS]

How do you conclude that Purgatory “contradicts” the Word of God?

Isn’t the Bible the Word of God?

Purgatory (the concept behind it; not the word itself) is in the Bible - the Bible is emphatic that we must become purified before we can enter Heaven.

That purification takes place as soon as we repent of our sins,then Jesus washes us with His precious blood and are made white as snow.

 

[jmcrae]

That purification takes place as soon as we repent of our sins,then Jesus washes us with His precious blood and are made white as snow.

Ah - so in Confession (where I repent of my sins), and at Holy Communion (when Jesus washes me with His blood).

 

[MariaG]

That purification takes place as soon as we repent of our sins,then Jesus washes us with His precious blood and are made white as snow.

Respectfully, I would disagree as to the “when” Jesus washes us perfectly clean.

Actually, I may not disagree . I do in fact believe that if one were to have perfect contrition and out of love for God repent moment’s before death, one could be made as white as snow and be purified.

The difference is that most do not die in that moment, in reality or completely to self. This “old man of the flesh” can creep back in. And so for most, one needs to be purified at death to be completely clean of the desires of the flesh.

Here is a question for you. After you repented, have you never been “tempted” to do the wrong thing? Do you think you will enter heaven with these temptations still bothering you?

I don’t and neither does scripture and the Catholic Church.

God Bless,
Maria

 

[IHS]

Respectfully, I would disagree as to the “when” Jesus washes us perfectly clean.

Actually, I may not disagree . I do in fact believe that if one were to have perfect contrition and out of love for God repent moment’s before death, one could be made as white as snow and be purified.

The difference is that most do not die in that moment, in reality or completely to self. This “old man of the flesh” can creep back in. And so for most, one needs to be purified at death to be completely clean of the desires of the flesh.

Here is a question for you. After you repented, have you never been “tempted” to do the wrong thing? Do you think you will enter heaven with these temptations still bothering you?

I don’t and neither does scripture and the Catholic Church.

God Bless,
Maria

Dear Sister,temptation is not a sin. Giving into temptation is.We will be faced with temptation till the day we die. Satan is not our friend. He comes to kill, steal and destroy.Yes ,I will enter heaven requardless of the temptation that comes against me.

 

[MariaG]

Dear Sister,temptation is not a sin. Giving into temptation is.We will be faced with temptation till the day we die. Satan is not our friend. He comes to kill, steal and destroy.Yes ,I will enter heaven requardless of the temptation that comes against me.

But will you enter heaven still facing temptations in heaven?

your sister in Christ,
Maria

 

[IHS]

But will you enter heaven still facing temptations in heaven?

your sister in Christ,
Maria

This is a good question.I believe not for nothing evil can enter into the kingdom.

 

[MariaG]

This is a good question.I believe not for nothing evil can enter into the kingdom.

That is what Catholic Christians believe also.

And since we KNOW that we are faced with these temptations all our lives, and since there is scripture that talks of the being cleased as if through fire, we believe that this cleansing state, which could be completely instantaneous at the moment of death, is called purgatory.

God Bless,
Maria

 

[flameburns623]

God did not endow us with free will?

No.

We have no say in the matter?

None whatsoever.

Some are predestined for salvation and others are not?

Precisely.

Are you troubled by the terminology?

No. In any case, what do my feelings matter about the situation? I like to say, upon dropping or spilling something, that ‘gravity is not our friend’. Notwithstanding, gravity is indifferent to my friendship or lack thereof. Facts is facts.

 

[jim1130]

jim1130:

God did not endow us with free will?

flameburns:

No.

jim1130:

We have no say in the matter?

flameburns:

None whatsoever.

jim1130:

Some are predestined for salvation and others are not?

flameburns:

Precisely.

jim1130:

Are you troubled by the terminology?

flameburns:

No. In any case, what do my feelings matter about the situation? I like to say, upon dropping or spilling something, that ‘gravity is not our friend’. Notwithstanding, gravity is indifferent to my friendship or lack thereof. Facts is facts.

Facts are facts as relates to gravity, but (1) We have free will, whether you choose to accept it or not is up to you, of which you obviously subscribe to John Calvin’s theology so you deny free will, which is unfortunate, and (2) the predetermination of who will be saved and who will not be saved means faith is irrelevant since one can have faith, but not be a member of the elect, and one can sin until the sun sets and be saved because one is elect.

 

[IHS]

That is what Catholic Christians believe also.

And since we KNOW that we are faced with these temptations all our lives, and since there is scripture that talks of the being cleased as if through fire, we believe that this cleansing state, which could be completely instantaneous at the moment of death, is called purgatory.

God Bless,
Maria

Where in sacred scripture is this purging mentioned?

 

[jim1130]

"MariaG:

That is what Catholic Christians believe also.

And since we KNOW that we are faced with these temptations all our lives, and since there is scripture that talks of the being cleased as if through fire, we believe that this cleansing state, which could be completely instantaneous at the moment of death, is called purgatory.

God Bless,
Maria

Where in sacred scripture is this purging mentioned?

Is this helpful?

1 Cor 3:15 - Works are judged after death and tested by fire
1 Pet 1:7. - fire tests the fruit of our faith
Mt 12:31 - Jesus talks of being not forgiven in this world or the next
2 Macc 12:46 - prayers for the dead

CCC - 1031 The Church gives the name Purgatory to this final purification of the elect, which is entirely different from the punishment of the damned.606 The Church formulated her doctrine of faith on Purgatory especially at the Councils of Florence and Trent. The tradition of the Church, by reference to certain texts of Scripture, speaks of a cleansing fire:607
As for certain lesser faults, we must believe that, before the Final Judgment, there is a purifying fire. He who is truth says that whoever utters blasphemy against the Holy Spirit will be pardoned neither in this age nor in the age to come. From this sentence we understand that certain offenses can be forgiven in this age, but certain others in the age to come.608

CCC - 1032 This teaching is also based on the practice of prayer for the dead, already mentioned in Sacred Scripture: "Therefore [Judas Maccabeus] made atonement for the dead, that they might be delivered from their sin."609 From the beginning the Church has honored the memory of the dead and offered prayers in suffrage for them, above all the Eucharistic sacrifice, so that, thus purified, they may attain the beatific vision of God.610 The Church also commends almsgiving, indulgences, and works of penance undertaken on behalf of the dead:
Let us help and commemorate them. If Job’s sons were purified by their father’s sacrifice, why would we doubt that our offerings for the dead bring them some consolation? Let us not hesitate to help those who have died and to offer our prayers for them.611

606 Cf. Council of Florence (1439) 1304; Council of Trent (1563):1820; (1547):1580; see also Benedict XII, Benedictus Deus (1336): 1000.
607 Cf. 1 Cor 3:15; 1 Pet 1:7.
608 St. Gregory the Great, Dial. 4,39L 77,396; cf. Mt 12:31.
609 2 Macc 12:46.
610 Cf. Council of Lyons II (1274): 856.
611 St. John Chrysostom, Hom. in 1 Cor. 41,5G 61,361; cf. Job 1:5.

 

[IHS]

Is this helpful?

1 Cor 3:15 - Works are judged after death and tested by fire
1 Pet 1:7. - fire tests the fruit of our faith
Mt 12:31 - Jesus talks of being not forgiven in this world or the next
2 Macc 12:46 - prayers for the dead

CCC - 1031 The Church gives the name Purgatory to this final purification of the elect, which is entirely different from the punishment of the damned.606 The Church formulated her doctrine of faith on Purgatory especially at the Councils of Florence and Trent. The tradition of the Church, by reference to certain texts of Scripture, speaks of a cleansing fire:607
As for certain lesser faults, we must believe that, before the Final Judgment, there is a purifying fire. He who is truth says that whoever utters blasphemy against the Holy Spirit will be pardoned neither in this age nor in the age to come. From this sentence we understand that certain offenses can be forgiven in this age, but certain others in the age to come.608

CCC - 1032 This teaching is also based on the practice of prayer for the dead, already mentioned in Sacred Scripture: "Therefore [Judas Maccabeus] made atonement for the dead, that they might be delivered from their sin."609 From the beginning the Church has honored the memory of the dead and offered prayers in suffrage for them, above all the Eucharistic sacrifice, so that, thus purified, they may attain the beatific vision of God.610 The Church also commends almsgiving, indulgences, and works of penance undertaken on behalf of the dead:
Let us help and commemorate them. If Job’s sons were purified by their father’s sacrifice, why would we doubt that our offerings for the dead bring them some consolation? Let us not hesitate to help those who have died and to offer our prayers for them.611

606 Cf. Council of Florence (1439) 1304; Council of Trent (1563):1820; (1547):1580; see also Benedict XII, Benedictus Deus (1336): 1000.
607 Cf. 1 Cor 3:15; 1 Pet 1:7.
608 St. Gregory the Great, Dial. 4,39L 77,396; cf. Mt 12:31.
609 2 Macc 12:46.
610 Cf. Council of Lyons II (1274): 856.
611 St. John Chrysostom, Hom. in 1 Cor. 41,5G 61,361; cf. Job 1:5.

Thanks Jim. The verses you mentioned(1cor3;15 &1peter1;7) tell of our works being tested and being put through the fire. It dos,nt effect our salvation.It tells us if our works will recieve rewards. Matt.12;31 speaks of blasphemy of the Holy spirit,nothing to do with purging. Thanks for your efforts.

 

[flameburns623]

Facts are facts as relates to gravity, but (1) We have free will, whether you choose to accept it or not is up to you, of which you obviously subscribe to John Calvin’s theology

I accept Bible theology. Predestination, by the way is deeply rooted in the teachings of several of the early Church Fathers and in Catholic theology. I can cite a couple of books for you to read on the subject if you are actually interested.

. . . .the predetermination of who will be saved and who will not be saved means faith is irrelevant since one can have faith, but not be a member of the elect, and one can sin until the sun sets and be saved because one is elect.

Unless one accepts, not a Pagan or secular determinism; but rather a Christian doctrine of Predestination, in which an all-good, all-wise, all-knowing God predestines not only the ends but the means, not arbitrarily nor cruelly but in accordance with His own nature and for His own purposes, to His own glory.

What this means in practice, with reference to your gloss, is that the lost will never have saving faith nor ever even desire such a thing; nor will the Elect die sinning ‘until the sun sets’.

 

[jim1130]

Thanks Jim. The verses you mentioned(1cor3;15 &1peter1;7) tell of our works being tested and being put through the fire. It dos,nt effect our salvation.It tells us if our works will recieve rewards. Matt.12;31 speaks of blasphemy of the Holy spirit,nothing to do with purging. Thanks for your efforts.

I disagree with your interpretation and just because you disagree does not mean what was presented to you was incorrect.

St. Augustine and St. Gregory affirm that sins may be forgiven in the world to come. Those in Heaven need not worry because their sins were forgiven. Those in Hell are lost. This middle place, as referred by St. Augustine and St. Gregory, is where souls already bound for heaven can be cleansed and purified, hence purgatory.

And I noticed no comment on 2 Macc 12:46.

This reminded me of St. Frances de Sales statement on the Reformers who removed books from the Bible: “You were angry at seeing in the Machabees the intercession of Saints and prayers for the departed.” (Chapter VII - How Greatly the Reformers have Violated the Integrity of the Scripture)

 

[flameburns623]

Jim1130:

. . . . And I noticed no comment on 2 Macc 12:46.

The doctrine of a ‘purgatory’ does not emerge from the exhortation to pray for the dead; nor did pious Jews ever teach or believe in any such doctrine; nor does a single obscure passage in a book historically held even by the RCC as not so fully authoritative as other books of the Old Testament prove the doctrine you seek to justify by the citation.

 

[jim1130]

I accept Bible theology. Predestination, by the way is deeply rooted in the teachings of several of the early Church Fathers and in Catholic theology. I can cite a couple of books for you to read on the subject if you are actually interested.

Unless one accepts, not a Pagan or secular determinism; but rather a Christian doctrine of Predestination, in which an all-good, all-wise, all-knowing God predestines not only the ends but the means, not arbitrarily nor cruelly but in accordance with His own nature and for His own purposes, to His own glory.

What this means in practice, with reference to your gloss, is that the lost will never have saving faith nor ever even desire such a thing; nor will the Elect die sinning ‘until the sun sets’.

No, I am not interested, but thanks for the offer.

God includes each person’s free response to His grace. you disagree with that.

Rabbi Kushner explained free will this way. You give a child two options, (1) The child may either do homework or (2) go outside and play. The child selects option # 2. You say “Wrong answer. Try again.” This time the child selects option # 1. You say “Right answer.” Where is the free will?

 

[jmcrae]

Thanks Jim. The verses you mentioned(1cor3;15 &1peter1;7) tell of our works being tested and being put through the fire. It dos,nt effect our salvation.It tells us if our works will recieve rewards.

So, you believe that our works go to Heaven or to Hell separately from ourselves? I could go to Heaven, but my bad works could get burned up in Hell by themselves, without me (the person who did them) experiencing any of the pain, myself?

Could my good works also go to Heaven and become happy all by themselves, while I go to Hell and cease to experience happiness?

 

[jim1130]

The doctrine of a ‘purgatory’ does not emerge from the exhortation to pray for the dead; nor did pious Jews ever teach or believe in any such doctrine; nor does a single obscure passage in a book historically held even by the RCC as not so fully authoritative as other books of the Old Testament prove the doctrine you seek to justify by the citation.

Still, the Catholic Church with the Holy Spirit recognized the Canon of Scripture and Machabees was included. Because some question does not dismiss its authority.

 

[IHS]

I disagree with your interpretation and just because you disagree does not mean what was presented to you was incorrect.

St. Augustine and St. Gregory affirm that sins may be forgiven in the world to come. Those in Heaven need not worry because their sins were forgiven. Those in Hell are lost. This middle place, as referred by St. Augustine and St. Gregory, is where souls already bound for heaven can be cleansed and purified, hence purgatory.

And I noticed no comment on 2 Macc 12:46.

This reminded me of St. Frances de Sales statement on the Reformers who removed books from the Bible: “You were angry at seeing in the Machabees the intercession of Saints and prayers for the departed.” (Chapter VII - How Greatly the Reformers have Violated the Integrity of the Scripture)

Why do you disagree with me?