Why do Protestants object to Purgatory?

[valient_Lucy]

Y’all are going to make me haul out my Catholic New American Bible, I see. Before I do that, take a little time to check some of the notes in your own copies of the NAB. (You DO have a personal copy of the Catholic Bible, I trust???) Take note that the footnotes and commentary caution the reader repeatedly that information in the Deuterocanonicals is deemed unreliable and to be treated with considerable reserve. Stories about dragons, for example, might best be taken as allegorical.

Actually, from a historical perspective, even fiction written during the time period a person is studying can be incredibly helpful. When I was studying the French Revolution in college, we read an essay that used fairy tales and nursery rhymes for insight into peasant life and values. When we studied pilgirmages in my Crusades class, the first document that my textbook quoted was Chaucer’s Cantebury Tales. Notice that in neither case, did we assume that the documents in question described actual events. The writer did not attempt to convince us that a little girl actually conversed with a wolf before he killed her grandmother and devoured her. But the stories, rhymes, and poems still provide insight into the world portrayed.

 

[jmcrae]

In this particular case I believe it is you and Jmcrae who have misapprehended the longstanding distinctions which Roman Catholics have made between the ‘standard’ Old Testament books accepted by all, and those books differentiated from the collection as ‘deuterocanonical’.

Can you tell me in what version and on what pages of the NAB you are finding this information?

This is understandable, since you wish to use one passing reference to bolster your belief in purgatory.

Speaking for myself, personally, I believe in Purgatory because the Church teaches it, and I believed in it long before I knew of any scriptural support for it.

My basis for believing the Church is that it was founded by Jesus Christ; not my personal interpretation of the Scriptures.

 

[Sixtus]

Purgatory is perhaps the most misunderstood concept by Protestants. It is nothing to do with Christ’s atonement for our sins. Of course His sacrifice was sufficient. The bible says it was MORE THAN ENOUGH!

It really is not possible for Catholics to explain purgatory as a place of suffering or expiation without in some way accounting Christ’s death as somehow incomplete, imperfect, unable of itself to fully pay the debt of sinners ‘teletestai’–‘paid in full’, complete, lacking nothing.

Either Christ’s atonement on the Cross was sufficient to expiate for sin in all of it’s effects, consequences, and ramifications, or else it was not.

Christ paid the price for our sins.

We however, are not ‘pure in ourselves’. Our human frailty and weakenss to sin remains. I have to confess to all the world that despite Christ atoning for my sins, I am still weak. I STILL sin! My spirit is not ready to see God!!

Pergatory is OUR opportunity.

 

[AlegreFe]

Christ paid the price for our sins.

We however, are not ‘pure in ourselves’. Our human frailty and weakenss to sin remains. I have to confess to all the world that despite Christ atoning for my sins, I am still weak. I STILL sin! My spirit is not ready to see God!!

Pergatory is OUR opportunity.

:yup: Absolutely. But we can also have our Purgatory right here on earth, by making sacrifices… accepting our sufferings and uniting them to those of Christ’s sufferings… praying and fasting… the list goes on. :yup: We have to repent and do “Penance, Penance, Penance.” … and more penance. And only God can decide how much time from purgatory He can take due to our penance and sufferings here on earth. Our suffering is redemptive. Let’s put our sufferings with those of Christ’s and offer up sacrifices so that our stay in Purgatory won’t be as long.

 

[rbarcia]

:yup: Absolutely. But we can also have our Purgatory right here on earth, by making sacrifices… accepting our sufferings and uniting them to those of Christ’s sufferings… praying and fasting… the list goes on. :yup: We have to repent and do “Penance, Penance, Penance.” … and more penance. And only God can decide how much time from purgatory He can take due to our penance and sufferings here on earth. Our suffering is redemptive. Let’s put our sufferings with those of Christ’s and offer up sacrifices so that our stay in Purgatory won’t be as long.

Sounds like you are trying to earn you way to heaven.

**

Romans 11

6 And if by grace, then it is no longer of works; otherwise grace is no longer grace. But if it is of works, it is no longer grace; otherwise work is no longer work.

**

 

[jim1130]

Sounds like you are trying to earn you way to heaven.

**

Romans 11

6 And if by grace, then it is no longer of works; otherwise grace is no longer grace. But if it is of works, it is no longer grace; otherwise work is no longer work.

**

You have been on this site enough to know that we are justified by faith and works, not faith alone (James 2:24); that our works are an offshoot of our faith.

I look at how Jesus responded when asked what was necessary for everlasting life. Jesus had the opportunity to say “faith alone” is all that you need, but, instead, Jesus said:

Matthew 19:16-21 “And behold one came and said to him: Good master, what good shall I do that I may have life everlasting? Who said to him: Why askest thou me concerning good? One is good, God. But if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments. He said to him: Which? And Jesus said: Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness. Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself. The young man saith to him: All these have I kept from my youth, what is yet wanting to me? Jesus saith to him: If thou wilt be perfect, go sell what thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, follow me.”

Luke 18:18-22 “And a certain ruler asked him, saying: Good master, what shall I do to possess everlasting life? And Jesus said to him: Why dost thou call me good? None is good but God alone. Thou knowest the commandments: Thou shalt not kill. Thou shalt not commit adultery: Thou shalt not steal: Thou shalt not bear false witness: Honour thy father and mother. Who said: All these things have I kept from my youth. Which when Jesus had heard, he said to him: Yet one thing is wanting to thee. Sell all whatever thou hast and give to the poor: and thou shalt have treasure in heaven. And come, follow me.”

Why did Jesus not use either occasion to emphatically state that “faith alone” is all you need? Instead, Jesus preached of faith and works.

 

[Mr.Ex_Nihilo]

The sin against the Holy Spirit cannot be forgiven in this life nor in the next. That means that there is a “next life” in which sins can be forgiven. We all know that it is not Hell. Nothing can be forgiven in Hell, you’re already doomed. So there is a third place where we can end up in and that is purgatory.

32 And whoever speaks a word against the
Son of Man will be forgiven; but whoever speaks
against the holy Spirit will not be forgiven,
either in this age or in the age to come. Matt 12:32

Then doesn’t this mean that sins are forgiven in purgatory?

I’m not trying to argue. I’m just not understanding exactly what’s being said.

 

[jmcrae]

Then doesn’t this mean that sins are forgiven in purgatory?

I’m not trying to argue. I’m just not understanding exactly what’s being said.

The passage is referring to a “world to come” in which someone will not be forgiven of sins against the Holy Spirit - the unspoken “but” is that other sins can be, though - this “world to come” cannot be Hell, since no sins can be forgiven there: that’s where they are being punished. And it can’t be Heaven, because when we arrive in Heaven, all of our sins will already be forgiven (past tense), so there has to be a third alternative - a place we go where sins are being forgiven. (Sounds a lot like the Catholic description of Purgatory, doesn’t it?)

 

[Mr.Ex_Nihilo]

The passage is referring to a “world to come” in which someone will not be forgiven of sins against the Holy Spirit - the unspoken “but” is that other sins can be, though - this “world to come” cannot be Hell, since no sins can be forgiven there: that’s where they are being punished. And it can’t be Heaven, because when we arrive in Heaven, all of our sins will already be forgiven (past tense), so there has to be a third alternative - a place we go where sins are being forgiven. (Sounds a lot like the Catholic description of Purgatory, doesn’t it?)

Yes. It does.

And actually, that’s fairly well what I said before.

I’m just curious why AlegreFe said I was kind of wrong for saying this.

 

[Syele]

30"He who is not with me is against me, and he who does not gather with me scatters. 31And so I tell you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven. 32Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but anyone who speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come.

This passage is referring to who is forgiven at judgement. Not saying that if you suffer in purgatory you will be forgiven. That is really a streach to claim this verse is about purgatory. It dosn’t say will be forgiven after they suffer for a bit.We are either forgiven or we aren’t. there is no mention of extra punishment here.

 

[lak611]

This could also mean that even in heaven, one can be Un-forgiven for speaking against the holy spirit. Remember, even angels can be cast down, this means that spirits too can violate the will of God.

Once people get to heaven, they stay there! There is no Catholic or Protestant doctrine that says we are “unsaved and kicked out of heaven”.:bigyikes:

 

[AlegreFe]

Mr. Ex Nihilo:

Then doesn’t this mean that sins are forgiven in purgatory?

I’m not trying to argue. I’m just not understanding exactly what’s being said.

The passage is referring to a “world to come” in which someone will not be forgiven of sins against the Holy Spirit - the unspoken “but” is that other sins can be, though - this “world to come” cannot be Hell, since no sins can be forgiven there: that’s where they are being punished. And it can’t be Heaven, because when we arrive in Heaven, all of our sins will already be forgiven (past tense), so there has to be a third alternative - a place we go where sins are being forgiven. (Sounds a lot like the Catholic description of Purgatory, doesn’t it?)

I said “can” be meaning that in Hell sins cannot be forgiven. It was more of an “as oppsed to” comment. I guess I should’ve made it more clear. And jmcrae has already stated that for me.
Mr. Ex Nihilo:

And actually, that’s fairly well what I said before.

I’m just curious why AlegreFe said I was kind of wrong for saying this.

Because you were. Once we are in Purgatory that means that we died in God’s Graces. And if that is the case, then that means that all our sins were forgiven already. :whacky: I hope I don’t have to go through that again. LOL

 

[AlegreFe]

30"He who is not with me is against me, and he who does not gather with me scatters. 31And so I tell you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven. 32Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but anyone who speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come

Aaahhh! Someone that understands exactly what I was trying to tell Mr. Ex Nihilo. I’m glad you understand it that way. Because that is how it is. :yup:

But the only part that is about purgatory is that it mentions a third place. That is not Hell because you were not forgiven for your sins and can never be forgiven. It is not Heaven because you are already saved and don’t need forgiveness at all. So in purgatory there is still purging that has to take place for our temporal punishment and not necessarily a “forgiveness” for our sins because that has already happened. So this must mean that there is a third place and there can be no other then Purgatory.

 

[Mr.Ex_Nihilo]

I said “can” be meaning that in Hell sins cannot be forgiven. It was more of an “as oppsed to” comment. I guess I should’ve made it more clear. And jmcrae has already stated that for me.

I understand that sins cannot be forgiven in hell. I never claimed that they could.

But jmcrae said that there is a place we go where sins are being forgiven. Then he said sounds a lot like the Catholic description of Purgatory, doesn’t it?

To this I agreed. Purgatory is the place where sins are being forgiven. He didn’t say they are already forgiven. And if he meant that, then he needs to be clearer on this-- becuase I find this distinction confusing.

AlegreFe:

Because you were. Once we are in Purgatory that means that we died in God’s Graces. And if that is the case, then that means that all our sins were forgiven already. :whacky: I hope I don’t have to go through that again. LOL

I guess I’m not really amused. I don’t think you should be laughing at a fellow Catholic who’s just asking you questions to understand the doctrine of purgatory better.

You said before that whoever speaks against the holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come.

I understand that.

However you also said that some sins will be forgiven, not in this this age but before the age to come, right?

If so, doesn’t this mean that the forgiveness is granted in the intermediate stage called purgatory which preceeds the age to come?

Or are you saying that some sins will indeed be forgiven in this this age, with the effects of sin cleansed in the intermediate state of purgatory, and yet still be purified before the age to come?

If so, then ok-- I understand what you’re saying and will not ask any further questions.

 

[Mr.Ex_Nihilo]

But the only part that is about purgatory is that it mentions a third place. That is not Hell because you were not forgiven for your sins and can never be forgiven. It is not Heaven because you are already saved and don’t need forgiveness at all. So in purgatory there is still purging that has to take place for our temporal punishment and not necessarily a “forgiveness” for our sins because that has already happened. So this must mean that there is a third place and there can be no other then Purgatory.

But when did the forgiveness happen?

Are you saying that forgiveness happens in this age then?

Or are you saying that forgiveness happens in the intermediate stage of purgatory?

 

[AlegreFe]

I guess I’m not really amused. I don’t think you should be laughing at a fellow Catholic who’s just asking you questions to understand the doctrine of purgatory better.

I’m sorry I wasn’t laughing at your asking and trying to understand. I shouldn’t have laughed at all then. I was “amused” at the fact that I would have to repeat everything that I have posted in this thread before. I apologize. I’m sorry.
Mr. Ex Nihilo:

Or are you saying that some sins will indeed be forgiven in this this age, with the effects of sin cleansed in the intermediate state of purgatory, and yet still be purified before the age to come?

If indeed we repent of our sins before we pass on, then ALL sins are forgiven. It’s the temporal punishment due to our sins and the self-love that we still have that are being cleansed before we face God.

 

[AlegreFe]

Are you saying that forgiveness happens in this age then?

Yes otherwise we end up in the fires of Hell instead of Purgatory or Heaven.

 

[IHS]

The passage is referring to a “world to come” in which someone will not be forgiven of sins against the Holy Spirit - the unspoken “but” is that other sins can be, though - this “world to come” cannot be Hell, since no sins can be forgiven there: that’s where they are being punished. And it can’t be Heaven, because when we arrive in Heaven, all of our sins will already be forgiven (past tense), so there has to be a third alternative - a place we go where sins are being forgiven. (Sounds a lot like the Catholic description of Purgatory, doesn’t it?)

Nice try.(description of purgatory) Our sins are forgiven immediatly as soon as we repent. That work was done at the cross.

 

[valient_Lucy]

Nice try.(description of purgatory) Our sins are forgiven immediatly as soon as we repent. That work was done at the cross.

Our sins are forgiven, BUT, are we perfect, as Our Heavenly Father is perfect? In heaven, we will not sin, or even want to sin anymore. All of our imperfections will be gone, for “nothing unclean can enter heaven.” What changes between the last moment of our life and the moment we enter heaven?

I’ll say more about this later.

**OH! IO! **

 

[Syele]

Our sins are forgiven, BUT, are we perfect, as Our Heavenly Father is perfect? In heaven, we will not sin, or even want to sin anymore. All of our imperfections will be gone, for “nothing unclean can enter heaven.” What changes between the last moment of our life and the moment we enter heaven?

I’ll say more about this later.

**OH! IO! **

We are not unclean as you suggest, when we are forgiven it is GONE, God dosn’t forgive but still treat us as if we weren’t forgiven.